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Announcement: Another Chance for Second Chances

Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374 10/1/2015	Many of you will be aware of a long-standing exploit / dull piece of design with Second Chances. Currently, you can Enter a storylet attempt an action with a second chance committed fail! be offered a second chance back out of the storylet rather than taking the second chance and risking a fail result go back to 1 ...and never see the failure result as long as you have spare second chances and actions, and don't mind a bit of slog. This isn't the way we intended the content to be played, and it isn't an interesting decision for the player to make, but it's the legacy of a daft decision I made back in 2009 when I didn't know better. So in the near future, this will start happening instead: Enter a storylet attempt an action with a second chance committed fail! be offered a second chance back out of the storylet rather than taking the second chance and risking a fail result go back to 1 find that you now need 2 second chances, not 1 fail, be offered a second chance, go back rather than risk a fail result, go back to the start... find that you now need 4 second chances, not 1! repeat until you take the plunge and actually succeed or fail In other words, if you keep re-attempting the same storylet, the cost of doing it will double every time - until you actually succeed, or give up and fail. It'll still possible to use second chances to evade failure, but it'll be a more costly and more interesting decision. (This is tracked per storylet - so if you want to use second chances on other storylets, you'll see those costs increase or reset separately.) Questions? Pop 'em below!
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Gonen Posts: 817 10/1/2015	YOU COULD DO THAT??? I always arrive late to a party... -- The Ashen Anesthesiologist - Paramount Londoner Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness. The long journey to eccentricity: On March 10th, 2018, reached 15 on all quirks, simultaneously. The Quirky Anesthesiologist
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Lady Taimi Felix Posts: 202 10/7/2015	sputters and nearly chokes on her tea "Older players had it easier"?! Pshaw, I say! Faff and twaddle! We 'old-timers' had to suffer through the era of a paltry 10 actions A DAY. Yes, that's right! We also had to walk barefoot on cobblestone to get to the Bazaar, uphill both ways, in a wax-wind storm!* All of you Johnny-come-latelies and your cushy, regenerating 40-action candles don't know how good you have it! * - This is probably not true, but you weren't there, now were you, tenderfoot? edited by Lady Taimi Felix on 10/7/2015 -- Lady Taimi Felix: Devoted Wife. Invisible Eminence. Patron of the Shadowy Arts. Monster Hunter. Lady of Adventure. Exceptionally Lethal. Loves a Good Chat over Coffee.
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Guy Scrum Posts: 197 10/3/2015	Go Back / Perhaps Not has always consumed one invisible action for me. That is, I won't see a an immediate decrease in my candle, but if I use Perhaps Not 20 times in a row the game will tell me I don't have enough actions to do anything and if I reload the page I'll see that my candle has in fact gone down. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Guy%20Scrum Interactive fidgeting writer simulation
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xKiv Posts: 846 10/3/2015	Alexis Kennedy wrote: Go Back / Perhaps Not actions cost: this will work the same way as it does right now, which I think means 0 actions. I just verified that it does incur the full action cost. The GUI doesn't show it at first, but the action(s) is/are lost - which can be verified by reloading the page. I used to think that that was an inteded part of the real cost of the trick. -- https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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Thorbimorbi Posts: 48 10/3/2015	I started playing a few months ago, and my impression for most of the changes that happened since then is this: Choice for own storyline? Away with it! Ways to avoid horrible cards that are nothing more than a waste of actions and resources? Nope! Mechanics that ease the permanent Menace-dance? Heresy! Sometimes I'm seriously asking myself wether I just came too late to this game. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Thorbimorbi
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Huey Posts: 45 10/4/2015	Alexis Kennedy wrote: Soft cap on second chances: we might increase or remove this, once we've seen how the new mechanic pans out. But yes, it's meant to be very hard to use second chances to back out five or six times in a row... As a future Theorem Hunter that considers himself unlucky I'd be very grateful to be able to reliably keeping my death score at 0. It's a little quirk of mine, as it's the only menace-related area I never visited and my character is proud of that. Tl;dr: if this SC change becomes effective I really hope their cap is removed. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Huey~Nomure Feel free to contact me, I'll accept the majority of social interactions as soon as possible. Exceptions: Affluent Photographer.
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RandomWalker Posts: 948 10/7/2015	Well, Evade Them! is SMEN content, so making it easy to avoid / reduce the consequences of your actions is missing the point a little. I agree completely with regards to Impossible Theorems, though. I don't know if the challenge was balanced with this technique in mind, but they're hideously expensive even if you manage to pull off the search. With a 30% success rate or whatever it is, and with a doubling of the cost in second chances each time (and each second chance is worth about 50p, I think), the pain and cost of that loss is still going to be high even if you can back out.
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Hannah Flynn Administrator Posts: 491 11/16/2015	If you follow through and succeed or fail, it goes down again. -- Wields the news canon, aboard the hype train.
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RandomWalker Posts: 948 10/7/2015	Eh. I agree that there have been some very nice buffs over time, from lots of new content to the increased action limit. That being said, I've played a few online games and this one gets more nerfs to established content than any other I can think of. I think the goal is better story flow, less grinding, and forcing the players to access more of the content, which are all laudatory, but the number of epa nerfs, from fidgetting writer to hunter's keep to the cave of the Nadir, and so on (it's a pretty long list) do give the impression that I'd have been better off starting this game earlier.
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dov Posts: 2580 10/7/2015	I also like this change (you can still try multiple times, but the cost increases which seems reasonable). I will like it even more if (as others have suggested) the cap on accumulating second chances would be removed (at least for some sources). This will make it possible to invest time and resources planning ahead before trying out a really difficult challenge where the cost of failure is just too high (e.g. getting Impossible Theorems, or, you know, something like Evade Them! <shudder>. -- Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how. (Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Hammond Posts: 41 10/3/2015	Not going to lie... I am not very enthused about this, any of it.~sigh~ -- Hammond All invitations are welcome. {Warning: Messages sent within the forum might not be answered in a timely manner. Please forgive me, it is a bad habit I am trying to break.}
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cyberpunkdreams Posts: 527 10/3/2015	I think it's a great idea. My first thought was why not just disallow using a second chance the second time around, but adding the player choice and the idea of diminishing returns works way better. Likewise with the idea of capping the number of second chances one can have. -- Seeking alpha testers for a new StoryNexus cyberpunk RPG. Welcoming friends, rivals, sightseers; a life of some importance in the Neath.
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Thorbimorbi Posts: 48 10/6/2015	MissCrumpet wrote: Does this change in second chances make a huge difference for menaces? I didn't even know about this exploit until recently, so I didn't use it during early gameplay. I assumed the change was targeted more at impossible theorem grinding and other high-level activities. You can still discard cards though, unless I'm missing something. The only non-discardable nuisances I can think of are the Merry Gentleman and eyeless skull cards, the latter being easy to avoid. But it's entirely possible I'm wrong. That said... I'm not sure I'm a fan of the more set storylines, but it hasn't affected me since I've already gone through them. I hope you can enjoy the writing and art anyway, even if the shifting gameplay mechanics aren't your favorite. Don't worry, I still love the writing. But there actually is no other way anymore to get rid of undiscardable cards than to remove the conditions that spawn them (I even asked on the forums about that a few weeks ago). For example, I sat on the "Crime or Punishment?" card for three days or so, because I wanted to trade my Criminals Favours for Shadowy, and the the card wouldn't show up. My reference to Menaces was more of a summary, because "Mechanics that ease the permanent Menace-dance, the grind-elongating failures (think Thefts of a Particular Character) and the costly failures (Return to the Palace Cellars etc.)?" seemed to long and snaky a sentence. My post was mostly fuelled by annoyance about the wrench that this will throw into my plans for stealing Bazaar Permits for the lodgings, because my Shadowy is not yet high enough to reliably use Gang of Hoodlums, and failures on Thefts result in much higher action cost to bring up casing again. So now I will probably have to farm Second Chances in addition to Casing, and that is not something I look forward to. Also, a feeling of "Older players had it easier", but that might be just my imagination. Edit: I find it hard to call the old behaviour an exploit, it still had the action cost, only the counter would not refresh properly. edited by Thorbimorbi on 10/6/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Thorbimorbi
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A B Nile Posts: 414 10/2/2015	I like the mechanic. Would it be possible though to raise the cap on Second Chances? Once players use up their legacy stocks, the (in most circumstances) limit of 20 means that in practice we can actually only attempt the "trick" 5 times, doesn't it - i.e. because it requires 1, then 2, then 4, then 8, then 16, then 32? This may of course be the idea. -- My profile: A B Nile My alt: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate (seeking Acquaintances and accepting all social actions) Item conversion table - finally complete with all rare successes! Bloody, bold and resolute
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Sara Hysaro Moderator Posts: 4514 10/2/2015	If we aren't getting uncapped Second Chances it'd be nice if the required number of Second Chances was capped somewhere. I would say 20, but that makes the Impossible Theorem truly impossible for most. -- edited by Sara Hysaro on 10/2/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome. Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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Ian Hart Posts: 437 10/2/2015	Estelle Knoht wrote: Ian Hart wrote: Will this only apply to pinned storylets, or will it apply to cards as well? I don't think you can do that to cards already since you lose them if you take any actions and exit. As for the change itself.... eh, I guess Impossible Theorem is grindy enough anyway, why not add more grinding to the pile? Not particularly "interesting" for that one story though. Also, does this affect other Storynexus game with the same mechanic? I forgot if Below have second chances too or something. edited by Estelle Knoht on 10/1/2015 Well, at some point you're going to draw the card again. Below does make explicit use of this mechanic. Which reminds me, are players going to be advised of this change? I imagine it could confuse a lot of new players. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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Mark Posts: 63 10/1/2015	I like it. And I say that as someone who has used that exploit on more then one occasion. -- Zinaida Gorenko, the Scarlet Saint - Accepting any social action except loitering, cats, and photographer
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Kolanowski Posts: 148 10/1/2015	Huh, I actually didn't know about that exploit. Oh well. -- Kazimierz Kolanowski, gentleman, scholar, humble servant of the Maw. Chaotic Evil. Open to all social actions & accepting almost all requests. Might sell you to Satan for a single corn chip.
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Grenem Posts: 2067 10/1/2015	Estelle Knoht wrote: Ian Hart wrote: Will this only apply to pinned storylets, or will it apply to cards as well? I don't think you can do that to cards already since you lose them if you take any actions and exit. As for the change itself.... eh, I guess Impossible Theorem is grindy enough anyway, why not add more grinding to the pile? Not particularly "interesting" for that one story though. Also, does this affect other Storynexus game with the same mechanic? I forgot if Below have second chances too or something. edited by Estelle Knoht on 10/1/2015 yes, but the current card system offers an alternative exploit- deliberately failing a check on second chance in nadir to discard at no expense. -- Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters. On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning. Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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NiteBrite Posts: 1019 10/2/2015	When you say "In other words, if you keep re-attempting the same storylet, the cost of doing it will double every time - until you actually succeed, or give up and fail." Do you mean that the counter resets if you go play a different story after backing out but before attempting again? Or is the increase tracker a permanent increase making things like carousel storylines much much harder due to the fact they loop around and repeat (so you end up playing the same story repeatedly in a non-exploit manner). Edit: never mind, I see the line in your post now that says "(This is tracked per storylet - so if you want to use second chances on other storylets, you'll see those costs increase or reset separately.)" Which answers my question. I like that solution. edited by NiteBrite on 10/2/2015 -- I AM currently accepting calling cards. Stats loss counter: reset, irrigo equivalent: none [00:34] <@ortab> NiteBrite's laugh is that of a condemned soul gazing into the abyss. Merciless Modiste avatar by Paul Arendt (based on an original image by Joe England) http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/TheBriteModiste
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thedeadlymoose Posts: 214 10/6/2015	Out of curiosity, since the net effect of a lot of these new changes seem to nerf things like the Nadir (or theorem hunting) for higher-level players, might some of these places therefore get a buff? Re: the rest of discussion-- While it's true I have felt demoralized by some recent nerfs, and it's also true that though I am a higher-level player, I am newer and therefore don't really know how much easier it was for older players-- I'm not sure I agree with a lot of the statements here. Take Crime and Punishment. I actually agree with the people who dislike the change to it. However, what about all the other cards that were buffed or had added fun storylets due to the Criminals change? Hell, besides the conversions thing, Favours represent a massive buff to Connections that classic players didn't have. Several companion cards were buffed, as was the Criminals card itself. How about the recent change to Zailing? This both added new fun options (that older players didn't have) and significantly decreased the required grind (which older players dealt with for years). Also: A recent thread reminded me that Making Waves used to only gave you a chance to increase Notability, and players used to lose one Notability a week! I imagine this particular redesign of second chances was also partially made to make things easier for the writers to design interesting scenarios. Plus, failure text in Fallen London is often very entertaining. It's kind of a shame to miss it, both from the writers' perspectives and readers' perspectives. And, I mean, this isn't the same as removing the "creative second chance use" altogether. Which wouldn't even have been unreasonable from a design perspective. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Eris~Jay http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Red~Rose
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Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374 10/3/2015	Soft cap on second chances: we might increase or remove this, once we've seen how the new mechanic pans out. But yes, it's meant to be very hard to use second chances to back out five or six times in a row... Op cards: it'll probably work this way: track as per storylets, but you do lose the card as well. Go Back / Perhaps Not actions cost: this will work the same way as it does right now, which I think means 0 actions.
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Theus Posts: 311 10/5/2015	Huey wrote: As a future Theorem Hunter that considers himself unlucky I'd be very grateful to be able to reliably keeping my death score at 0... The failure doesn't teleport you to death, it just gives you lots of wounds. You should be able to avoid death by the standard tricks (avoid triggering the must storylet that fires when you have 8+ menaces). [spoiler] Try using your other tabs. [/spoiler] edited by Theus on 10/5/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Hefty~Harrison
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genesis Posts: 924 10/6/2015	MissCrumpet wrote: Nightmare cards are non-discardable, but why wouldn't you want dreams?. Menace dream cards don't actually give you dreams, just Nightmares. There are usually identically-named discardable dream cards which do give you dreams but those are not the menace dream cards. ETA: scratch "identically-named". There are identically-named dream cards but those are not the same as menace dream cards. edited by genesis on 10/6/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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Shalinoth Posts: 493 11/17/2015	I also just got the hidden-loss of 8 more actions on the Overgoat card, and the amusing server error message (even when I had >16 actions upon attempting said challenge, so there were more than 8 actions left for the re-try. But yes, the re-try just leads to error screen, not success or failure. -- Profiles: Shally, Chimes & Jack~of~Smiles . . . Current Goal:
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Lady Taimi Felix Posts: 202 11/17/2015	I just had the Overgoat card use 16 actions after failing the first attempt. I succeeded on the second try, and didn't get any sort of server error about it. -- Lady Taimi Felix: Devoted Wife. Invisible Eminence. Patron of the Shadowy Arts. Monster Hunter. Lady of Adventure. Exceptionally Lethal. Loves a Good Chat over Coffee.
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xKiv Posts: 846 12/28/2015	Also, consider the name. They are second chances, not third, fourth, ..., chances. -- https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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dragonridingsorceress Posts: 622 10/12/2015	I know I'm late to the party, but I'd like to suggest a linear, rather than geometric increase in required Second Chances. ie. 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 instead of 1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 5 Especially if you're not removing the cap on Second Chances. It would give a slightly longer life-expectancy. -- DragonRidingSorceress is an Author of good standing. Mostly good standing. She's happy to accept any social action except Photographer and Loitering, but requests warnings before duping/poisoning/etc. Seeker of Names is a... being with an obsession. They're willing to accept all invitations. One who seeks to know all that is and may be. One who dances in the silence of the void. One whose fantasies make the reality come alive.
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Hannah Flynn Administrator Posts: 491 11/16/2015	The changes to second chances are going live shortly! -- Wields the news canon, aboard the hype train.
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The tearful archaeologist. Posts: 7 11/16/2015	Could the second chance increases be reset when Time rolls around each week? Or there be an option to use professional perks to reset them? It seems rather harsh for a storylets to never be able to go down again.
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Màiread Posts: 385 11/16/2015	I believe that the number of second chances required will go back to one once you have actually succeeded or failed that challenge - the increase isn't permanent. -- Màiread - Correspondent, composer, lover of cats. Can probably bake you a d__n fine cake. Useful Links: Traveller's Friend (Progress Tracker & Notability Calculator) \| phryne's Guide to Favours & Renown \| Peggy the Nowoman lived to see the Feast. Thank you for the memories, Snow Lady. I'm happy to accept most social actions except for lethal sparring and loitering suspiciously. Please challenge my plant! Currently not accepting calling cards.
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Announcement: Another Chance for Second Chances