Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
8/26/2015
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Today replacing Connected: Criminals with two new qualities: Renown, which tracks your fame or infamy, and Favours, each of which represents a significant debt owed. Connected: Criminals is used in hundreds of places, so it's going to take us a while to make all the changes; some branches might become unavailable for a short while in the interim. Please bear with us for a bit.
If you'd like to know what these changes entail, there's some more detail here.
Edit: this is now done. Your Connected: Criminals will remain for a bit until we're sure nothing went awry with the Favours/Renown conversion; if you notice anything else that seems strange or broken, though, do drop us an email at support@failbettergames.com.
edited by Flyte on 8/26/2015
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phryne
Posts: 1351
11/18/2015
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genesis wrote:
Incidentally, I am quite surprised that it's been almost 3 months and still no changes to any other factions. I would have expected the same sort of frequency we've been getting for the trackers - i.e. about one a month
If I understand the original announcement correctly, it was never intended to change all connected: factions within a short time. The Criminals were more of an experiment to see how this works.
By the way, I'm not a fan of these changes. It seems unnecessary to me to replace one quality (Connected) with two (Favours/Renown). Like we don't have a veritable jungle of qualities already...
edited by phryne on 11/18/2015
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
11/18/2015
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phryne wrote:
By the way, I'm not a fan of these changes. It seems unnecessary to me to replace one quality (Connected) with two (Favours/Renown). Like we don't have a veritable jungle of qualities already...
edited by phryne on 11/18/2015
I rather agree with you.
It makes sense on some level (the changes), as I do like that I can spend favours without lowering the renown, but - at the same time - I feel the same effect could have been made in a way that doesn't split the 'connected' into two new parts. It'd also be better if - instead of all under 'Contacts' - they create two different/new subsections: 'Renown' and 'Favours'. It is a little awkward when trying to find one or the other, or to compare the two if need be, especially when it makes a long list even longer.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
11/19/2015
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I'm a devout fan of the Favours changes and look forward to it spreading. Having an unreliable opportunity of varying profit that's based on a quality that bobbles up and down like a sine wave and can't be hoarded? Love it. Best mechanical innovation to grindy gameplay I've seen since 2013. Such an interesting pattern to have on top of the more standard carousel grinds, and it works because it's in tension with those -- and because you can't just grind it whenever you want. FL needs "unreliable, tricky grinds" to go on top of the baseline stuff -- it helps fight fatigue. I don't know how that will end up looking when Favours are added for connections that currently can be ground out, like Society, Bohemians or Revolutionaries, but I'm interested to see what they do with it. The Renown part I could live without, but it's nice to have for those who want to grind a faction-related stat to dizzying heights.
I do agree that the undiscardable conflict card is a little over the top. I'd say that's a matter of degree and not basic concept, though. It's nice, risky gameplay to hold two opposed factions at a high level; it's a little messed up right now because Constables is not a 1-7 Favour yet. If it was, the only time you'd have 5-7 is because you were trying to cash out at a high level for profit or something special (like high level renown) and that should involve some risk in this kind of system. The concept, as I understand it, is that you can't hoard for long without serious downsides, and that's a great concept precisely because it works very differently than all the other stockpiling in the game. Contrast! Sharp relief!
But yeah, even if there should be a risk of punishing non-discardable card, tuning that to the right amount of pressure is important. I don't know if Crime or Punisment? should be Unusual Frequency instead of Very Infrequent -- that would make it as rare as say, the Paranomastic Newshound. Meanwhile, Implausible Penance and Call in Favours in the Flit are both Standard. But there are several other punishments that could be modified:
- you lose a point off a Quirk and only get one if you happen to have the opposed Quirk below 5 (this is basically just "costs a Quirk")
- Turncoat is a little over the top for this considering the only choice which removes Favours (and definitely stops the card coming for any player with high connections) gives you Turncoat if you're a Conscience of Empire (which is the far more popular choice in the playerbase). This might be helped out when Constables moves over the Favours, but is a little janky right now -- I drew Crime or Punishment twice in an hour, which seems like would run counter to desired behavior
- it's good that this card is currently the most profitable way in sheer echoes per action/Favour to lose your Criminal Favours, but given the punishments involved I think it's easy to prefer Implausible Penance. If it were a bit more profitable, then the punishing aspects might make sense? Alternately, lose the punishments and lower the profitability so that Implausible Penance is better; the punishment then is just that you don't make as much off of it. In either route, maybe giving an extra Favour (up to 7) of the opposing side would work well as part of the profit, and satisfy some of the concerns in this thread too.
edited by metasynthie on 11/19/2015
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A B Nile
Posts: 414
8/28/2015
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I really like the changes. Previously I was reluctant to spend Connected: Criminals on anything because a) it was a scarce resource (i.e. not easy to grind to high levels); and (b) I wanted to keep it high for RP reasons.
The fact that Renown doesn't go down means that those who want to RP a strong long-term connection to a particular Faction can still do so, while occasionally monetising more transient connections (or indeed using those transient connections to do something that increases the long-term connection). Good move, both from a story and game mechanics perspective.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
11/20/2015
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My problem is how hard it makes upcrafting. that should check renown, i think. You're making mutually favorable deals and it costs you a favor? ugh.
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
10/2/2015
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I feel recognition of the most Renowned of Criminals is in order:
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Mikhailovich
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Koenig
Posts: 466
10/11/2015
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I wonder...Would it be possible for higher levels of renown to increase the maximum number of favours held? It seems like something that would make sense and could be beneficial in the long run. Just a thought.
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marcmagus
Posts: 168
8/28/2015
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
Huh, I swear I got 2 Magnificent Diamonds last time I did it.
You're not crazy: I just did it and got 2 Magnificent and 3 Ostentatious. Coin flip for 14 echoes or 26 echoes, if that's what it is, will complicate discussing the value of the option.
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thedeadlymoose
Posts: 214
9/6/2015
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Couple of side things I haven't seen mentioned:
"Mess with the Smile, get the teeth" (getting Annoyance to Jack of Smiles up to 3) loses one Favour rather than dropping a Connection. (That's gonna be a fairly brutal occurrence for future players once all those Connection drops are replaced with Favour loss.)
Completing Counting The Days and cashing in for First City Coins costs 3 Favours.
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
9/2/2015
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I don't mind cashing out Favours for cash, but I mind that the conflict cards mean you have to cash out Favours for cash.
I don't think collecting Favours should be easy. And it isn't. Getting 7 of the right opportunity cards can take a very, very long time.
Being able to do things like avoiding Renown, or trading in favours for rewards should all be options.
But making them the only options seems to discourage gather Favours rather than encourage them.
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
9/2/2015
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I do strongly agree that if this was applied directly to all existing conflict cards, it would be a nightmare. I don't think that will really happen though. Something like kicking bohemians out of a church or breaking an old guy out of a mansion aren't going to completely erase a faction's debt towards you.
I've been assuming the new conflict cards will all be like constable/criminals and docks/widow, where they represent serious conflicts between truly antithetical organizations. I'd think that's why criminals was chosen as the first one to convert, no new content needs to be written (and thus wasted if this system didn't work.)
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A B Nile
Posts: 414
11/18/2015
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Thread necro with two pieces of information about Renown: Criminals.
I started on Renown 18, and have been taking every opportunity to acquire Favours and use them to increase Renown via the Old Bone Skeleton Key. Recently, and for the first time, I succeeded in the option and did NOT go up a full level of Renown. This was between 33 and 34 - the increase was to 33+30.
Secondly, the Steadfast increase is capped at 15. I suppose we can assume that the same will apply to other Quirks once Renown for other factions comes into play.
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
9/2/2015
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I'd get that if the conflict cards were a way of exchanging Favours from one faction for another, but as it stands it's an unavoidable Favour drain.
Or if Favours were a tangential benefit to other endeavors that accumulated on accident. But instead you have to actively seek out Favours on opportunity cards.
The conflict card system, as it stands now, is designed to discourage you from collecting Favours at all except as a potential revenue source.
So if the exchange of Echoes for Favours on the conflict cards is less than whatever Echo grinding you're currently engaged in, or if you aren't interested in Echo grinding, it's best to avoid any opportunities to obtain Favours as it's just going to needlessly drain actions and cloud your deck.
So if the new conflict card system is: Don't Collect Favours, that doesn't seem dynamic at all.
EDIT: Now I'd get if the reason is "It makes collecting Renown harder." That makes perfect sense.
But I never really liked the idea that folks thought "nuking connections" was a good idea to avoid cards they didn't use. The idea that having Connections is Fallen London was a bad thing to be discouraged seemed the antithesis to the theme of the game.
Now this new system seems to be using the same tack where "smart" players will avoid Favours all together, making Factions in Fallen London a part of the game many players will choose to avoid.
Which sucks because Factions are awesome and an integral part of the flavour of the game.
edited by Nigel Overstreet on 9/2/2015
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Curious Foreigner
Posts: 210
8/26/2015
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If anyone is interested, I have echoed the Topsy-Trot in my Journal.
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Danko
Posts: 142
8/26/2015
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Hello, can I please get my "sell information to criminals" storylet in the Flit back? It was too good even without giving criminal connections.
Thanks.
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Kaigen
Posts: 530
8/26/2015
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The new option on the faction card gives you one favour and a point of Suspicion. Only requirement is not having 7 favours already.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
8/26/2015
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Well, that makes Favours relatively easy to get, but not reliably because all the sources so far seem to be cards. The Life of Crime card has a similar option -- "Remind them who's boss" now gives a Favour and a point of suspicion instead of 10 CP Criminals connection and a point of suspicion. The option on the Smoky Flophouse card that used to give Criminals connection now gives a Favour, but it looks like only if you have a low number of Favours? (And still locked off if you have eliminated Jack.) Visiting the music-hall singer, on the other hand, now gives Society connection in place of Criminals; she's cleaned up her act, I guess!
So you can get 9 echoes after playing four cards, which is 2.25 EPA but all draw-dependent.
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Travers
Posts: 98
8/27/2015
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So far, I've seen:
10 C = 0 R + 4 F
15 C = 0 R + 6 F
17 C = 0 R + 6 F
24 C = 0 R + 7 F
28 C = 1 R + 7 F
50 C = 4 R + 7 F
51 C = 5 R + 7 F
76 C = 9 R + 7 F
160 C = 23 R + 7 F
204 C = 30 R + 7 F
where the units are C for Connected: Criminals, F for Favours: Criminals, and R for Renown: Criminals.
edited by Travers on 8/27/2015
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PStrange
Posts: 18
8/27/2015
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To those who mourned it: Pass on Information to a Colleague is back. Seems to be 10cp casing for 10cp Shadowy, no Favours.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
8/27/2015
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Kaigen wrote:
So we have a report that you can Take on the Local Champion on An Implausible Penance for 400 Rostygold at a cost of 1 Favour, which translates to 2 EPA (minus some potential Suspicion). Or you can use the Calling in Favours in the Flit card to get 900 Moonpearls for 3 Favours for 2.25 EPA with the opportunity cost of having to flip cards in The Flit. Someone on the wiki reports that Beating the Minister gives 14 echoes of diamonds for 7 Favours for 1.75 EPA. So at least one bulk conversion option is less profitable overall than a one-for-one, but since you're liable to have more cards in your deck to add Favours than to spend, you might have to go for the bulk conversions to avoid wasting potential Favours with the 7 Favour cap.
Beating the minister gives 26 echoes of diamonds.
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MadmanAtW
Posts: 231
8/28/2015
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I just beat the minister and only got 1 Magnificent Diamond (and I think 7 Ostentatious Diamonds).
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
8/28/2015
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It's in addition to the Ruthless gain.
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Jeremy Avalon
Posts: 345
8/27/2015
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Beating the minister is also the only perfectly reliable method of getting Magnificent Diamonds. (Others are either rare successes or can be locked out.)
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How we must glow; yes, I bet we look like snow.
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ericjs
Posts: 36
8/27/2015
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Here's a surprise! Take on the local champion from An implausible penance now loses you 1 Favour instead gaining you Connected as it used to to. However it yeilds more Rostygold. I just got 400 from it.
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colinsapherson
Posts: 191
8/27/2015
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Renown 30 gets you the title 'Known even in Gaider's Mourn, far across the zee'.
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dov
Posts: 2580
8/27/2015
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A B Nile wrote:
The whole Cheery Man / Constable thing has been on my mind recently, thanks to the introduction of Favours and Renown.
Is there any other early game action that, without a warning of any sort, completely locks you out of becoming Closest To a particular faction This is a long standing problem (in my opinion) with the Cheery Man / Constable storyline.
(BTW, for a long while this also blocked people who chose the Constable from choosing Enforcer as their profession, since getting this via the Revolutionaries required a property which was only available in a specific Shadowy range. Thankfully, this restriction was since changed, so all players now have a path to Enforcer. But, as you note, 50% of players can't be Connected To the Criminals.)
It's not so much that there's no warning - this is a story choice which is presented to the player almost immediately after starting the game and escaping New Newgate prison. Players often make this particular choice literally the first day they play the game, when there's no concept yet at the possible long term implication of the choice.
I would also appreciate an option (with some cost attached to it) for switching this choice.
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Szadovar
Posts: 113
8/26/2015
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If you can see your favors, renown should be hard to miss 
Ben wrote:
I too am in the group asking for something as a replacement here.
The shadowy gain was something I was looking forward to, as the way to best gain my endgame shadowy.
+1
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marcmagus
Posts: 168
8/27/2015
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MadmanAtW wrote:
Interestingly, while I hadn't had enough Connection:Criminals to draw "Crime or Punishment?", I did post-change have enough Favours, so now I have this card vegging out in my hand.
Me too. I decided to play it for the Criminals, as I have plenty of Constables connection anyway.
It seems to give the same rewards as previously (~25 echoes of mostly Mysteries, +Suspicion, +SiC) at the cost of 500 CP of Constables, but it no longer gives anything positive on Criminals, and the quirks have changed.
It's now +Steadfast (limit 4)/-Austere
Steadfast definitely makes sense with the text, I'm kind of intrigued by whether this suggests a new direction for Austere?
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
8/26/2015
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Danko wrote:
Hello, can I please get my "sell information to criminals" storylet in the Flit back? It was too good even without giving criminal connections.
Thanks.
Seconded. I sometimes used that option to gain connected:criminals, but more often that was just a happy side-effect from the shadowy boost. I don't really need it for any of my alts any more, but it was very handy at the time.
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xKiv
Posts: 846
8/26/2015
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One stone in thousand now gives only 160 souls for 1 favor, making the direct monetary value of a favor disappointingly small (about 150 pences to people who can 100% AotB on the profitable side)
edited by xKiv on 8/26/2015
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
8/26/2015
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Call in Favours in the Flit, on the other hand, now gives 900 Moon-Pearls for 3 Favours, which is quite a bit better than that. It may be that cashing in more Favours scales rewards? On implausible penance, there are now three options that require only one Favour, two that require three Favours, and one each at five and seven.
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
9/2/2015
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Kaigen wrote:
I suppose it depends on how grindable other connections end up being
Favours will not be grindable at all. They are intended to be only available through opportunity cards or one-time storylets. If Favours were grindable, this wouldn't be an issue because you could just get your 7 Favours, cash them out for Renown and erase the card.
But as collecting Favours is a long term endeavour, this makes gathering them at all a potentially deck nuking proposition as you can go weeks without getting the necessary cards. It also makes getting the cards needed to collect more Favours more difficult as the conflict cards will eat up your deck space.
Ian Hart wrote:
Yeah, it seems reasonable to me that you can't be simultaneously playing "both sides" in conflicts like criminals vs cops, docks vs widows etc. Eventually one side is going to find out and you're going to get in trouble with them (and rewarded by the other side) unless you sacrifice opportunities to keep your dual-loyalties hidden (ie, keep the card in your hand.)
The trouble is the cards don't let you pick one side over the other. They only let you destroy Favours. You don't get an additional Favour from the other side. So Criminals don't care that you picked them over the Constables or vise versa. Your only reward for destroying a Favour is monetary.
I could get behind destroying 2 Favours for 1, but destroying Favours for Echoes? That seems to discourage having any connection at all.
Competing factions is a perfectly reasonable idea, much like the Matriarch and the Squad, if these were only directly competing cards, like Hell & Church. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
But Rubbery Men and Revolutionaries? And Constables? And Tomb-Colonist? Many of the conflict cards aren't for competing factions.
I don't mind if collecting Favours is hard, i just don't want a system that discourages players, especailly new players, from playing the Favour ssytem at all.
I never want to see anyone suggesting that new players avoid faction options all together, like we have now.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
9/2/2015
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It just encourages you to be a little more careful with who you're cultivating favours with at that moment. There's nothing stopping you from becoming renowned in both Hell and Church circles, but doing it at the same time will give you an annoying card. If you work on one and then the other everything will be fine, and after you're as renowned as you want to be you can hover at 4 favours for each faction you don't plan on spending for resources.
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
9/2/2015
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Ian Hart wrote:
Well, how would you represent working "for" the criminals/constables if not a monetary reward?
Favour for Favour.
Choose the Constables over Criminals? Lose 5 Favours: Constables, gain 1 Favour: Criminals.
Or something like that. Maybe not that steep. Maybe throw in some monetary reward on the side. Something where gaining Favours and Renown is a goal, rather than pure monetary gain.
After all, there are plenty of options to trade in Favours for Echos. So if you want to play the character who trades in his Favours for money, there are plenty of options for that.
But if you want to be the sort of cat who is loyal to a group for RP reasons, or just to get a high Renown, there should be an option for that too.
A conflict card should be about picking one side over the other, rather than being a mechanic to force you to use Favours solely as a monetary gain system.
Sara Hysaro wrote:
It just encourages you to be a little more careful with who you're cultivating favours with at that moment. There's nothing stopping you from becoming renowned in both Hell and Church circles, but doing it at the same time will give you an annoying card.
I hear that and I think for directly opposing factions it's a good idea. It's also pretty intuitive for new layers.
But most of the Conflict cards aren't for opposing factions. They're a spiderweb of almost all factions. These are old cards. A lot of those were just thrown out as a way to connect seemingly disparate factions.
And collecting Favours is such a luck based crap shoot, you've got to take what opportunities when you can. Getting from 5 Favours to 7 Favours could take weeks. So if you're just grabbing every Favour you can when you first start out, you could find yourself with 3 non-discardable cards from 3 seemingly non connected factions. And each of them just sinks your Favours.
So if you're frustrated with the cards, the solution is not to collect Favours. Or worse, that collecting Favours from one faction over another is mechanically discouraged.
It just seems the sort of thing that would turn people off of collecting Favours at all.
Maybe not to us because we're long time players and know how to game the system, but new layers might think the game doesn't want them to get Rubbery connections, which is the opposite of what the game seems to be about.
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Kaigen
Posts: 530
9/2/2015
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Nigel Overstreet wrote:
True, but that means the Favour/Renown system is now solely a monetary gain system. It creates the impression that your connections are only useful for Echoes. Besides, there are plenty of other actions which trade Favours for Echoes without making it a mandatory part of the system.
There was a thread in The Salon a while back about if you could only choose one option on the conflict cards, which one would it be. There were a lot of cool, varied answers reflecting all sorts of ideas about the factions.
If all of these factions are just reduced to which gives the best EPA, something ephemeral about the game gets lost. I think you still get that with this system. A player who runs into a conflict card is going to see that playing factions off of each other can be fun and profitable, but they'll also realize that they'll have to pick a side (at least for a time) if they want to get their Renown up to higher levels. Granted, Renown is currently not useful for anything, but neither is having Connected: Constables 100, apart from enjoying what that says about your character.
I guess I don't see why whether or not conflict cards grant Favour with the faction you side with makes a big difference in whether the system has life beyond an EPA calculation. You pick a side, and they reward you, but they're also aware that you could have gone the other way, and so perhaps they shouldn't rush to embrace you. And as a practical matter, the fact that you only get conflict cards when your Favours are so high means that you might hit the cap in one or both Favour categories before it turns up, which would make any granted Favours wasted.
edited by Kaigen on 9/2/2015
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"One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible."
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
9/2/2015
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I agree with Nigel about the possibility of getting a Favour as a reward for picking a side on a Conflict Card, mostly because I don't think that contradicts the design intention of Favours -- they're a highly volatile resource that tends to jump up and down unless you deliberately avoid cashing them in, and which pose problems when trying to fence-sit or "catch 'em all."
That aside, I don't see why players new or old should be encouraged to or able to easily collect lots of Favours. The whole point is that they're unpredictable, unreliable, and contingent on circumstance. You have to make tricky calls about when to hold onto them and when to cash out. Holding onto them will make more rewards available, and potentially very lucrative ones, but could take forever: who knows! Taking an opportunity that cashes out all of them is very efficient in terms of actions, but will leave you favourless in case you need to start an expedition or convert some items: uh-oh! Keeping multiple favours at 3-4 will leave lots of paths open to you, but also means constantly trimming the amounts you have back to avoid conflict cards: quite a juggle.
These are all good dynamics, because they involve tricky choices and difficult decisions, both economically and in terms of "who do I want to side with?" The presence of tricky choices is a pain in the ass; it's also a huge source of the kind of fun that comes from creative problem-solving. For new players, I think the main issue (much as with say, Polythreme) has to do with how to explain what's going on so they get how they could potentially work the system and find their way in it rather than being overwhelmed. Generally speaking, it looks like Favours will be more profitable than reliable grinds like Boxfuls of Intrigue, so economically-minded players will probably be into learning that. But as with the old conflict cards, there's definitely some roleplaying, story-driven interest as far as who likes you, who doesn't, who you're siding with.
And Renown is always there to be the non-volatile, only-increasing form of grindable reputation. It's taking care of that part so that Favours can be something quite different.
edited by metasynthie on 9/2/2015
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
9/2/2015
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Lastly, you know what I think would be neat? An opportunity card that requires at least one or two favours to appear, but grants more favours on success and removes the favours on failure. With a difficult skill check or a luck test. Using your existing connections to push your luck and get even closer and owed more -- but of course, it could backfire. Or how about a Broad test of the Favours: Criminals quality, difficulty level 4? Muahahah
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
9/2/2015
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My only issue is that getting high renown from our existing connections means skipping over some nice text that gives us more information about the faction. At the same time I'd rather not spend it because getting up to that level using the connection items might very well take a while, and I am curious to see how far up the renown levels my various connection levels would put me.
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
8/28/2015
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I'm curious what the timeframe is for converting all connections over to this system.
And I'd selfishly like to know which one of them is going to reduce Hedonism when gaining Renown so I can grind the podsnappery out of it now.
I'd also like a wish granting genie. You know, while I'm here hoping for things I might as well wish big.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
8/28/2015
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This time I tried the other half of drowning an informant - offering a less lethal solution. This gave me 300 Rostygold in exchange for 1 favour. It also increased Subtle (higher than 6; maybe 10 for the new cap?) and reduced Ruthless.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
8/29/2015
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Nigel Overstreet wrote:
I'm curious what the timeframe is for converting all connections over to this system.
And I'd selfishly like to know which one of them is going to reduce Hedonism when gaining Renown so I can grind the podsnappery out of it now.
I'd also like a wish granting genie. You know, while I'm here hoping for things I might as well wish big.
I am pretty curious about how they will rework the Great Game and the Urchins myself, given how the Veilgarden early game is pretty dependent on the Great Game while I personally like the Urchins.
Actually, on that note, how will the Glass and the Shroud work with the new system?
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
8/31/2015
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The Ruthless Henchman card can now give one Favour in exchange for 10 Romantic Notions. Also the text is totes adorable!
Which reminds me, why are we seducing annoying artist when our underling will snap a dozen necks for love?
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
9/2/2015
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I'm curious why the Crime & Punishment card is still un-discardable since there are no longer any options which don't eat up Favours/Connections without granting Favours for the opposing faction.
It was a bit more reasonable when there was the Affair of the Box option, or an option which would increase one faction to the greater detriment of the other.
But the current option only allows one to destroy Favours for items.
What's the motivation for this remaining un-discardable?
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
9/2/2015
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That's the plan for all the new conflict cards.
Edit: Here's the quote in question
2) How will conflict cards work?
Conflict cards will appear when you're owed a significant number of Favours by certain groups, like Constables and Criminals. You won't be able to discard them, but they'll disappear if you spend some of your Favours. Playing a branch on the conflict card will usually remove all Favours of one type in exchange for a substantial benefit.
edited by Ian Hart on 9/2/2015
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
9/2/2015
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Ian Hart wrote:
2) How will conflict cards work?
Conflict cards will appear when you're owed a significant number of Favours by certain groups, like Constables and Criminals. You won't be able to discard them, but they'll disappear if you spend some of your Favours. Playing a branch on the conflict card will usually remove all Favours of one type in exchange for a substantial benefit.
I know that is what's happening, I'm just curious what the explanation and motivation is.
What's the reasoning behind discouraging folks from collecting Favours? With multiple, un-discardable conflict cards, it's going to make collecting Favours from multiple factions impossible. If I wanted to, for instance, curry favour with The Urchins, that means I can't collect Favours from either The Widow, The Docks or Hell. At least not for the purposes of gaining Renown or potential storylets which require high Favours.
I don't care that this is the case, I'd just like to know why.
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Kaigen
Posts: 530
11/18/2015
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Well, Connected: Criminals was probably a relatively easy change, since there were few ways to grind it in meaningful quantities and you already mostly spent it through opportunity cards. The other Connected qualities are a lot more embedded in the game. I suppose they could do a more minor connection like The Widow, but they'd still have to rejigger all those smuggling storylets and decide how accessible favours gain and spending would be for that faction.
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"One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible."
-Jacques Derrida
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genesis
Posts: 924
11/18/2015
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phryne wrote:
If I understand the original announcement correctly, it was never intended to change all connected: factions within a short time. The Criminals were more of an experiment to see how this works.
Well, yes. They did say they won't be making the changes "in one go" but I didn't read it as saying that this is just an experiment they might abandon, rather that they'll be making the changes gradually. They *did* say that they haven't decided how to deal with unusual qualities like Connected: Masters, but for the "normal" connections I understood it to be just a matter of time. But even of those there are 13! At 3 months per quality (and potentially longer) this is straying into a Hesperidean Cider grind timeframes!!
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Danko
Posts: 142
11/19/2015
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I may be in minority here but I like how Favours: Criminals turned out to be.
I agree there's little point to renown, but I think it was mostly added just not to upset people who spent a lot of time grinding connections (for no real reason).
But the core Get Favours / Spend Favours mechanic works very well. You only get Favours from opportunities, there is a cap at how much of them you can get, and then sometimes you get to redeem your favours for very nice rewards. I find this rather enjoyable as a player.
Although I do understand the challenges with the other connections. There are hundreds of storylets and opportunities to raise them, and most often no useful mechanic to spend your accumulated connections, like the Penance card for Criminals. This needs a lot of thinking and balancing. I do hope though they would at least update one quality per month?
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colinsapherson
Posts: 191
11/19/2015
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I'm with you Danko. It means that there are chances to both hoard and spend, and also helps with some of the narrative issues that spurred this to be implemented in the first place: people may still remember you even if they want nothing to do with you.
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A B Nile
Posts: 414
11/19/2015
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To be fair, the undiscardable card only stays in your hand while you've got 5 or more Favours. If it really bothers you, just spend some of them and it'll go without you having to make a choice.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
9/4/2015
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
I've checked on the Sell information option in the Flit and while the Pass on information to a colleague option is still open it doesn't reward you with any Favours. Is this intentional or is it merely a mistake?
Intentional. It's just for you to boost Shadowy.
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
9/5/2015
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
Oh, I didn't think it'd be great. Just that it's a better deal than buying Favourable Circumstances for 8 Fate each.
Fair point. Although you'd be lucky to get back the cost differential of buying / selling the key if you just wanted 7 favours right now, and didn't care for the key afterwards.
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
10/11/2015
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It would certainly make raising renown a more attractive proposition, but I think FB capped favours for some reason. I can't think of an reason that would get them to lift the cap, except possibly as a method to increase grinding.
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Kaigen
Posts: 530
11/20/2015
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I think Crime and Punishment is annoying as an un-discardable card right now, because it's pitting a hoarding resource against a volatile one, but I expect conflict cards will be less annoying in general once they're all converted to the Favour system. Instead of being an annoyance that clutters your deck as soon as you have even a little connected with two opposed factions, they'll be an alternate means of cashing out favours that crops up when you have a significant amount with two factions.
I'm looking forward to when Connected: Rubbery Men gets changed, because I'd love to pump up that connected value, but it has some exceedingly inconvenient conflict cards.
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Just a simple doctor with a chess habit. Publisher of The Flit Dispatch.
"One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible."
-Jacques Derrida
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