TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
8/18/2015
|
Katistrophe wrote:
The point is just that the "some", if you are/your character is aromantic, includes six of seven Persuasive tiers. Because the wording right now puts it as you explicitly "seducing" the honey-sipper, and I feel you have to reach pretty far to read "affair" in a nonromantic/-sexual way. Even tweaking the wording so that's no longer the case might help.
Absolutely, romance is a major part of the game. The devs made that decision, clearly signposted the romantic content, and largely kept it separate from the rest of the game. There's room for improvement in that "largely", but the devs have not harmed anyone.
I'm completely sympathetic to problems such as "I have a mandatory choice between two romantic conversation options". But Fallen London studiously avoids these problems, and in my admiration for its skill I may have jumped needlessly to its defense. I am, after all, talking to fellow fans. I've filed my objection to the idea that the game fails to support aromantic identities. It's probably most productive to move on and get back to specific possible improvements. (I may contribute if I get around to making a new Londoner.)
edited by TheThirdPolice on 8/18/2015
--
Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
|
|
|
0
link
|
TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
8/18/2015
|
Just to point out another option for individuals in this situation, a character development arc feels more natural than the squint-and-pretend approach. I was quite the hedonist after I Fell. Once I learned that I was down here to avenge my murdered wife, I pulled myself out of my haze of self-erasure and honed my grief into new resolve instead. As my quest changed me, I occasionally lapsed into love, then merely to sex, then not even to honey. Recently, I polished away the last nick of humanity dulling the weapon of my vengeance. For the first time since I arrived in the Neath, I can no longer show mercy to those who are also afflicted by love. Only the resurrection of my wife could give me pause now, and every step brings me closer to the day when she would be just another obstacle.
I'm not saying you should change the core of your character like this, or that it would solve all your problems. The start of mine was fairly accidental and had nothing to do with the desire to play content. But the journey has been my all-time favorite single-player role play experience.
--
Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
|
|
|
0
link
|
Katistrophe
Posts: 29
8/18/2015
|
For a lot of new Londoners, their character represents them. I'm not sure everyone would be so happy, if they identify strongly with their character, to utterly change a core part of their identity. Not everybody stays away from sex and romance just for RP reasons.
I don't think a "lie back and think of the content" approach is desirable or enjoyable, either.
As for the affair business, various remarks I've read and replies to my feedback seem to imply to me that the romances are intended to be romantic - something along the lines of romance being inevitable to advance Persuasive.
|
|
|
0
link
|
TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
8/18/2015
|
Indeed. Which is why I suggest it as another option to think about, not as a universal solution. 
--
Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
|
|
|
0
link
|
Katistrophe
Posts: 29
8/18/2015
|
And as that it's fine, but I think a solution needs to be found for players like these as well. And there used to be one.
It might have bothered me less if the option to get through Persuasive content without romance or heavily romantic-coded relationships had been impossible from the start. But it was possible, you could get through with art or honey-dreams or whatever you wanted.
edited by Katistrophe on 8/18/2015
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Pingcode
Posts: 2
8/18/2015
|
Well, if it's any consolation most of the romances before POSI aren't terribly romantic, as it were. Your FL hero is a bit of a cad, really, when it comes down to it - pretty much every seduction venture in the game also suggests that your character is actually doing it for one ulterior motive or another.
The artist/artist's model? Your character homes in on them because they think they've got secrets they can steal and/or has a sudden burning desire to have a useless hack of an artist knocking on their opportunity deck door at all hours looking for handouts.
The jewel thief/artist? They've got money, and if you seduce them maybe you can get them to spend some of it on you!
The beauty/wit? You need the waves drummed up by a 'romantic' relationship in the court to really make a splash for your artistic endeavours. (The barbed wit's 'ended affair chastely' response even calls this out - once you've gotten that far you can just say 'well I got what I needed' and walk away)
It's not perfect, perhaps, but your character is in general coded as a highly ambitious, fairly ruthless individual only too happy to trample on people to get their way. There's room for a character who might not be engaging in these activities for altogether romantic reasons, but, well, in the end, there's only so much that can be done in this field without compromising major themes of the game.
edited by Pingcode on 8/18/2015
|
|
|
+2
link
|
TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
8/18/2015
|
And as that it's fine, but I think a solution needs to be found for players like these as well. And there used to be one.
It might have bothered me less if the option to get through Persuasive content without romance or heavily romantic-coded relationships had been impossible from the start. But it was possible, you could get through with art or honey-dreams or whatever you wanted.
Well, the old system had its own problems. It's not going to return.
I would love to see more alternate paths through storylets — everyone would, it's more content! — but this solution involves the most work for the devs. They would also have to play a guessing game: which options are worth supporting? How many players would appreciate a rehaul that acknowledges Chinese culture? Even if players clamor for an alternative to court exile, is it worth reading every word unlocked by that quality, to check for assumptions that may no longer be true? I understand why people are disappointed by the Alexis quote on page 1, but there's no alternative. You have to scope out a border somewhere. It's good to give the devs feedback for this, but logistics alone mean that these updates would happen slowly and sparingly.
So the challenge is to find solutions that open up the edges of the content, letting people sneak in their own interpretations without requiring much dev effort. Your idea of tweaking the wording in a few isolated instances is a good one. (This would bring those instances more in line with the general Fallen London approach, in fact.) Another idea could be a new option that lets you bypass a tier if you have a much higher value in the relevant attribute; basically a version of the old system that's opt-in and easy to implement.
--
Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Katistrophe
Posts: 29
8/18/2015
|
TheThirdPolice wrote:
Another idea could be a new option that lets you bypass a tier if you have a much higher value in the relevant attribute; basically a version of the old system that's opt-in and easy to implement.
That sounds like the best of both worlds to me - you'd have the guideline, but you'd also have the option to take the harder path and grind past a certain level to bypass whatever you don't want to do. Leading to more varied character possibilities again and the option to go for the coherent guideline path, which sounds like a win-win to me.
Of course, I've got no idea how hard or easy it would be to implement...
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Alex Churchill
Posts: 5
8/18/2015
|
My character also absolutely refuses to break the law. He's happy to hang around with people of whatever character, just as Jesus hung around with extortionists and prostitutes, but he won't bribe or steal. I was able to advance Shadowy to PoSI levels, just about, mainly by practicing free-running and entertainment-only sleight-of-hand in the Flit. Eventually I sold the location of the Nadir to afford some Lenguals and suchlike to push me up to 100.
He's not able to progress Mahogany Hall at all because not just the Shadowy options but also the Persuasive ones are distinctly immoral. That doesn't bother him very much; he can't get started on the Affair of the Box, but doesn't really need to.
Certain Unfinished Business items are off-bounds to him, too. I was delighted when I realised that Pygmalion teaching Lyme is a viable alternate source of Glim, as there was no way I was going to rob glim-couriers. He utterly refuses to buy or sell souls at the Bazaar, but is happy to plunder them from spirifers in Ladybones Road. And so on.
He also refuses to do any blackmail. This is particularly annoying because having got kicked out of the university for following his principles, now every single location in London has "A Sneering Gentleman" (a valet of His Amused Lordship) who will only go away if I start blackmailing him. That's never going to happen, so my character has got used to being Sneered at wherever he goes.
This is all fine. This kind of self-restriction is exactly what roleplaying is about. Deliberately passing up easy choices for harder ones.
But the problem is that the new model completely prevents that. If you're not going to steal? No chance of Shadowy content beyond tier 1. What bugs me is the removal of character interpretations that were possible before.
Katistrophe wrote:
TheThirdPolice wrote:
Another idea could be a new option that lets you bypass a tier if you have a much higher value in the relevant attribute; basically a version of the old system that's opt-in and easy to implement.
That sounds like the best of both worlds to me - you'd have the guideline, but you'd also have the option to take the harder path and grind past a certain level to bypass whatever you don't want to do. Leading to more varied character possibilities again and the option to go for the coherent guideline path, which sounds like a win-win to me.
This does sound like a really great plan. Just some way for characters to skip a tier if it's something the player is sufficiently dedicated to avoiding that they can grind it up with other actions.
What bothers me the most, though, is Alexis's comment that Failbetter have never intended to allow this kind of roleplaying, and although they're happy it exists, they have no interest in supporting it, or avoiding changes that break it. That's rather worrying.
edited by AlexTFish on 8/18/2015
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/AlexTFish
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Katistrophe
Posts: 29
9/1/2015
|
I know this topic has been quiet for a bit, but I've been thinking: since it'd mean extra effort, I'd even be willing to pay Fate for a stat-connected tier-skipping option. Even if it just costs one or two Fate per tier skipped, that ought to be still 24 or 48 Fate if you skip every tier. Anyone have thoughts about that?
edited by Katistrophe on 9/1/2015
|
|
|
0
link
|