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Favours and Renown

Flyte Administrator Posts: 671 8/12/2015	Right now, Fallen London uses Connected qualities to track your relationships with many of its inhabitants. We'll soon begin replacing this with a new system that uses two kinds of qualities: Favour and Renown. This is a preview of the changes, and what they might mean for your character. But first, a couple of caveats. Much of this is provisional, and some of the details are subject to change. And because Connected qualities are used so widely, we won't be making the changes in one go. To begin with we'll use this system for just one of London's amorphous factions, the criminals. Favours Most of the work currently done by Connected will be done by Favours. These represent a significant debt owed to your character, and you'll be able to trade them in for various benefits. To begin with, those will be the same kinds of benefits currently provided by Connected, although often they'll be much more profitable or effective than they are at present. For instance, you might call in Favours to gain items or improve your abilities or escape prison sooner. In the longer term, we'd like Favours to sometimes unlock special opportunities. To give a couple of examples, you might exchange them for access to a unique expedition, or an opening that unlocks a profitable card on heists. We'll add these gradually, because it's much easier to do as part of wider additions or extensions to a piece of content. An individual Favour is very valuable, so it won't be straightforward to grind them. The main ways to acquire them will be available opportunity cards, rare successes, one-off stories, and individual branches that form part of a wheel. In particular, you'll always be able to gain Favours using branches on the existing Connected cards. So you'll always have at least one reliable source. There'll be a limit to the number of Favours of a single type that you can store. Since this is Fallen London, the number of Favours is the Number, which of course is seven. Renown Your Renown represents the extent to which you are known to members of the Connected group: it's a measure of your celebrity or notoriety or both. It can go up, but it won't go down; you might lose your Favours: Hell if you're caught robbing the Embassy, but it won't make Hell forget about you. And there's no way to spend it. If you own a Connected item, you'll be able to spend Favours to increase Renown. The more Renowned you are, the harder it will be to increase. At higher levels, increasing it will also affect quirks, potentially raising them above 10. Questions and Answers 1) I have lots of Connected: Criminals. What will happen to it? We'll convert part of it into Favours. If you have a lot of Connected, we'll convert what's left into Renown. Renown is harder to raise than Connected, so the exchange won't be one to one: we haven't settled on a number yet, but 200 Connected, for instance, might become 25 Renown. If you'd prefer material rewards, you can trade your Connected for items before we implement the new system. 2) How will conflict cards work? Conflict cards will appear when you're owed a significant number of Favours by certain groups, like Constables and Criminals. You won't be able to discard them, but they'll disappear if you spend some of your Favours. Playing a branch on the conflict card will usually remove all Favours of one type in exchange for a substantial benefit. 3) What about unusual Connected qualities, like Connected: The Masters? We're not sure yet! These are large changes, and we'd like to see how things shake out for a typical Connected quality before we decide how to implement the more unusual ones.
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Seurat Posts: 23 8/12/2015	looks up from grinding, poorly, connected: the masters. um wait what -- Find me in London here. I have no stipulations for contact. Find me -- I see you already.
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Flyte Administrator Posts: 671 8/12/2015	38thDoE wrote: Question: Will we have to spend favors to perform item conversions? If so, ouch! Our current thinking: lower-level conversions won't require Favours. Higher-level conversions will consume one. Jeremy Avalon wrote: Conflict cards are presently practically infinite for a player with a wide range of connections, which makes Affair of the Box and Someone Is Coming options widely available. Will these be moved to other cards, will they disappear entirely, or will those grinds be restructured slightly? We're probably going to remove the Affair of the Box options. There's actually no mechanical reason to play them rather than the storylets in Spite, which are all either equally good or a little better – unless you're using them to flush a non-discardable card, which is not something we particularly want to enable. Conflict cards will continue to affect Someone Is Coming, but you'll draw them less often. Lots of other cards also increase it. Nigel Overstreet wrote: Can people like Nathan Attford Fenwick who have a ridiculous amount of Connected that the new system can't possibly reflect get some kind of singular accomplishment or item to reflect that they once got an insane amount of Connected? We'd rather not create unique qualities; it takes time we could otherwise spend improving the game for everyone, especially once you factor in concerns about fairness – if we do this for Connected: Society, would we have to do it every time we retire a quality? If not, where would we draw the line? The reward for remarkable levels of Connected will be remarkable levels of Renown. RandomWalker wrote: Oh, and biggest worry: depending on how expensive it will be to get favours from the connection cards, people at the end game may find it hard to progress... Getting Favours from Connected cards will be pretty straightforward, at least in most cases. Unlike quirks, Favours won't have banded level caps. But it will take time or luck to get from zero to seven, by design. Danko wrote: One question - will Renown be actually used for anything, or is it just a roleplaying stat? It's primarily for roleplaying. We may sometimes use it as a branch requirement because it's easy to write for and may be a better fit for some existing content, but it should always feel optional – it certainly won't unlock any major stories or be mandatory to progress. Kittenpox wrote: I don't understand why the Renown wouldn't ever lower. If I've just betrayed the Revolutionaries, even if they don't owe me a thing, I'm not sure I should expect them to welcome me with open arms quite so immediately afterwards because my Renown hadn't shifted. They might not welcome you, but they'll certainly remember you. Favours measure indebtedness, and Renown measures how well-known you are. We won't be tracking whether that Renown is celebrity, notoriety, envy, adoration, or something altogether more complicated – we'll leave that to you, the player. genesis wrote: 1. Will Renown gain be capped (like the Quirks) or completely unconstrained? 3. What's the intended impact on "Call in favours" storylets? We don't plan to set a fixed cap, but there will come a point at which the requirements to raise are too arduous to meet. Call in favours storylets will work much as they do at present, except that they'll consume Favours and in most cases have significantly higher payouts.
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Nigel Overstreet Posts: 1220 8/12/2015	Can people like Nathan Attford Fenwick who have a ridiculous amount of Connected that the new system can't possibly reflect get some kind of singular accomplishment or item to reflect that they once got an insane amount of Connected? Maybe, say, the top 10 Connected in each category as they are retired, like the Apple of Discord in the old K&C game? Just as a nice little parting gift to the old system? EDIT: Or...will Renown not have an upper limit? edited by Nigel Overstreet on 8/12/2015 -- The Romantic Egotist: Most Hedonistic Man in All of Fallen London Are you or someone you know Overgoated? Please, let me know! Cider Club
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Master Polarimini Posts: 310 8/12/2015	I'm with randomwalker by saying "I like the idea in concept, although I'm obviously worried about the implementation." Whatever will be, I'm glad this system will be changed. I have also found quite strange how to interpret the meaning in-game of the Connections value. Yes, I know it represents how connected you are with one power group of Fallen London, but I think it was never ideally implemented and sometimes there happened quite quirky things. Of the new system I'm just perplexed about one thing, that is it doesn't seem to consider bad actions against one Connection. In the very example of robbing the Embassy, I completely get you do not decrease (and perhaps even increase) Renown Hell, but I find strange there is no downside except losing Favours. It would be great if there were a sort of "Infamy" indicator for each connection that could work as a minor menace, which could make some damaging opportunity cards appear or even some storylets (of course you could buy the Infamy away by consuming favours of that Connection or with other mechanisms). Another thing that could be fun is using some Connections that are polar opposites (Criminal-Constables, Church-Hell, Revolutionaries-Masters) to create opportunities and/or storylets linked to their respective value of Renown/Favour/Infamy (e.g. if you are a certain value of Infamy Hell and Renown Church you could attract the attention of some high-level clergymen to do something). -- Devices workshop opening soon... Follow my story at http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Master~Polarimini
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Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493 8/14/2015	Flyte wrote: metasynthie wrote: No Favours, Low Renown = "uh, who are you again and why should we listen to you?" Some Favours, Low Renown = "we owe this one something" Many Favours, Low Renown = "I don't know who you are, but word's come down that we do this for you" No Favours, High Renown = can't be trusted / infamous / burnt up all the goodwill Some Favours, High Renown = valued ally Many Favours, High Renown = "one of us" I like this a lot, but it's unlikely to fit well with the volatility of Favours. It would kind of work at low Renown, where rapid changes of attitude make sense, but it would be weird to go from valued ally to outsider because you'd asked for some help with your Scandal. Now I'm amusing myself thinking of permutations of Favours and Renown that might represent different relationships with different groups. Like, someone with High Favours, Low Renown with Criminals might be a perfectly respectable shopkeeper who's fully paid up their protection fees and lets people use the lane behind their property for deliveries. Low Favours, High Renown with Bohemians might be someone who's marvellous at a party, but who is not allowed to borrow money or stay in the spare bedroom for a week again until they start showing some respect for others. Low Favours, High Renown with the Constables might be the sort of person featured in a newspaper article that ends "...who is known to the police", while the reverse might be some dreadful society bore whose only interaction with working police officers has been a tirade along the lines of "I will have you know that I am very good friends with your Chief Constable and I want this mess cleaned up immediately!" -- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Fhoenix Posts: 602 8/14/2015	I dunno, I liked being owned a lot of favor through connections. True, I would never cash it in, but it feels good to have influence. Making favor volatile means putting an upper limit on what connections can achieve. You will never be able to have a faction in your pocket. My dream was always that connection would unlock permanent new options that would not consume it. Like having 100 or 200 Church would give you a better candles source than unfinished business. Not because I need more candles, mind, I just wanted the game to better reflect my status. If high renown does not do anything in the game and is more or less for bragging, I would be less interested in it. I want qualities that do something, not another newspaper or Successful Terms as Governor (btw I don't know if you are ever going to expand Carnelian content, but if Terms unlocked more benefits in the carousel or even drove the story of improving the colony it would breath a lot of life into that content). It's super good that Faction cards will have more uses. It's super not good if it will make bulk item conversion harder. But, well, we'll see. -- My Character
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CameoAppearance Posts: 146 8/15/2015	Unguided wrote: The main reason I use the conflict cards to grind Affair of the Box is so I won't accidentally click the wrong thing and get hit with a point of Turncoat. That and it means I'm working through it passively whenever a card shows up instead of committing to a loot carousel. Yeah, especially at the stage where one of the storylets flips the position of the two factions' branches. Also I have far more Empire's Kingmaker than I could ever possibly use, so even though the number doesn't (currently?) do anything once you have enough of it to unlock Mourning Candles as a payout, I appreciate having a way to advance the carousel without making that number go up. -- Dr Cameo “Scary Teeth” Thurlow, that toothy androgyne with the wickedly sharp curly quotes
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penknife Posts: 85 8/12/2015	I hope whatever your calculations are about converting Connected into Renown/Favors, they take into account differences in how hard various Connections are to grind. Connected: The Church 283 is probably about the same as Connected: The Church 282, and it would be reasonable for both of those to become Renown: The Church 28 (or whatever). On the other hand, flattening every Connected: Masters score from 1 to 10 into "Renown: Masters 1" would be kind of horrific for people who have sweated (and compromised their character's moral principles in the service of dubious alien schemes) for each of those points. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Penknife Most social actions welcome, no SMEN or Boxed Cats please.
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Estelle Knoht Posts: 1751 8/12/2015	This sounds like a neat, refreshing change! I do think you guys will be able to pull it off (like the Tracker), but still... [spoiler][/spoiler] I am nervous for the barrage of incoming opportunity cards though once the patch hit. I like being friends with everything! -- Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady. I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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MissCrumpet Posts: 113 8/13/2015	Flyte wrote: In particular, you'll always be able to gain Favours using branches on the existing Connected cards. So you'll always have at least one reliable source. Wait... Does this mean that all the faction cards that are completely useless to me right now will actually be worthwhile? I discard 70% of the cards I draw so that would be amazing. Could I still use docks/church/society cards to increase making waves? I hate non-discardable cards, though. Will these primarily be for connections that are natural enemies (hell-church, criminals-constables), or for a wider range? Maybe I am missing lore, but I don't understand some of the connection conflicts (rubbery men-tomb colonist in particular). I'm definitely intrigued by this change and cautiously optimistic. Considering how much I usually hate potential game changes, that's a good sign -- Julia C, a creatively named lady. I am always looking to expand my circle of acquaintances and enjoy pleasant social interactions.
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dov Posts: 2580 8/13/2015	Flyte wrote: Matthew Cline wrote: So what about the Big Top and Sideshow at the Carnival? Our current thinking is that these branches will grant a Favour and a small amount of Renown. They'll have a fairly low max Renown requirement, so you'll only be able to play them a few times – in fictional terms, think of it as people being welcoming to a newcomer. This does mean that starting with high Renown will lock you out of a handful of easy Favours. It will still be a large net gain, because raising Renown is Favour-intensive. Hmmm. So the Carnival can provide a few Favours, but it's a one time thing, never to be repeated for that character for that faction? According to how you described it, Renown is more for RP reasons (and/or bragging) and will have very little gameplay influence. So this means anyone who starts with high Renown (due to having now lots of Connected) will have harder time getting a few Favours. Sure, if they plan to use those Favours just to increase their Renown, then indeed they have a net gain. But if they want the Favours for anything else, they would be at a disadvantage. Why not keep those branches in the Carnival similar to how they are now? That is, provide one or two Favours but only if you don't have any, and give a bit of Renown only up to a low cap. From Renown perspective, you can still play these storylets but it won't increase how much this faction knows you. From Favours perspective, then whether you are known or not, if this faction owes you no Favours at all, you can always bump into a member of the faction in the Carnival and perform some service to gain a Favour. Today, even advanced players can still come to the Carnival to get Connected with some faction or other for a specific purpose, and that is because the Connected quality can go up or down. With the new suggestion, there would be absolutely no reason for advanced players to ever visit the various characters and faction representatives in the Carnival, and that's a shame. -- Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how. (Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Sackville Posts: 295 8/13/2015	I'm completely okay with this just as long as I can still avoid ever seeing An Intimate of Devils and those other really cluttery infernal cards by keeping my Favours: Hell at zero.
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metasynthie Posts: 645 8/13/2015	I really like the idea that there's some ambiguity as to what Renown means for any given character; the breaking apart of stats into multiple aspects helps facilitate this in a way that reminds me of some tabletop RPGs that have a lot of ambiguously-roleplayed stats that have to be fleshed out by players. This discussion makes me wonder whether there's something leverageable for story purposes at various intersections, though, where it would be commonly understood that, for instance: No Favours, Low Renown = "uh, who are you again and why should we listen to you?" Some Favours, Low Renown = "we owe this one something" Many Favours, Low Renown = "I don't know who you are, but word's come down that we do this for you" No Favours, High Renown = can't be trusted / infamous / burnt up all the goodwill Some Favours, High Renown = valued ally Many Favours, High Renown = "one of us" Adding Turncoat into this mix in bigger ways could be helpful. -- Positively antique http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/metasynthie
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Nigel Overstreet Posts: 1220 8/12/2015	Flyte wrote: The reward for remarkable levels of Connected will be remarkable levels of Renown. That sounds perfect. Thanks for the response! -- The Romantic Egotist: Most Hedonistic Man in All of Fallen London Are you or someone you know Overgoated? Please, let me know! Cider Club
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Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493 8/12/2015	Matthew Cline wrote: 2) I'm a new player, so what is a "connection item"? Is that something like a "Antique Constable's Badge", which can be bought at the Bazaar and be used to increase connections? Yep, that's right! Flyte wrote: penknife wrote: I hope whatever your calculations are about converting Connected into Renown/Favors, they take into account differences in how hard various Connections are to grind. Don't worry – we know some Connected qualities are easier to gain than others, and we'll be setting the exchange rate in each case based on the actual distribution of Connected values among players. Man, I'd love to see those stats. It would be fascinating to know which factions are the most popular. -- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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lady ciel Posts: 2548 8/14/2015	I can understand where the worry comes from. We have been told that favours will be harder to get than the current connections; will be capped but also be used for a lot of the things we currently spend connections on ... item conversions; conflict cards; etc. You also need connections to do other things in game at the moment - gaining a profession (and some of the weekly payment for certain professions comes in connections as well); opening a Salon; etc. So this is a really big change and until it goes live we are left with the uncertainty of how things are going to work. -- ciel Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things. No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible. storynexus name - reveurciel
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RandomWalker Posts: 948 8/14/2015	metasynthie wrote: Keep in mind that the current conflict cards -- 10 of which appear as soon as you have only 5 of two types of connection -- will be appearing much more rarely because they'll require a significant amount of two types of favour. It'll be easier to keep those cards out of your hand by not accumulating lots of conflicted favours, and when you do draw one, playing it or getting rid of it will mean zeroing out one of the types of favour that causes it to appear. Overall, this sounds like the deck is being thinned. Not thinned, just easier to thin. Easier to dump favours certainly, but now dumping them has consequences - favours will be used to unlock flavour content. We won't know until it becomes live, but it is possible that the answer to some of our questions is that there are going to be new connected cards for the currently uncarded factions (widow, university, masters etc.). It also sounds like some connection cards are getting even more heavily loaded; the docks, society, and bohemian are already too heavily loaded for me (i.e. there are multiple attractive options on those cards, hence my not farming kittens any more). metasynthie wrote: If the Docks/Widow card works similarly to how it currently does, cashing in Widow favours for several Strong-Backed Labour would zero out Widow favours, but not Docks favours, so you'd only need to gather up Widow favours again. That may or may not involve a new Widow connection card -- those might be grindable via this new "branches that form part of a wheel" thing, which sounds like it's a carousel of some sort that you'd use instead of say, attending an audience with the Widow 40 times. Fair point, although I'm not sure what the 'branches that form part of a wheel' means; I don't think that it's a carousel. Be interesting to see what FB have got in mind. metasynthie wrote: Similarly, if Favours give boosted amounts of things that Connections currently do, like a larger amount of stat increase on connected cards, the same could be applied to item conversions. Right now doing one conversion of 25 Extraordinary Implications to 5 Uncanny Incanabula costs 4 actions' worth of Benthic connection. If a Benthic favour is harder to get (it seems like they might be worth say, 50-100 CP of connections) then the conversion might give you a larger quantity of items (even at the same ratio) or give a more valuable success bonus. Well, it'd be nice to be wrong, but FB have a very firm hand on the game economy. I'd be surprised see them making any changes that makes it easier to grind echoes. A lot of good grinds have been nerfed over time (selling your soul, cashing in running battle, hunter's keep, bottled oblivion, Cave of the Nadir (still good, but was much better), fidgeting writer (see Cave of the Nadir), and I'm sure there have been others). It would be nice to have easier ways to get some of the rarer items that are currently best found in the side-streets, though. One thing I'm really not sure on is _why_ this is being done. The current system isn't noticeably broken. Splitting renown and favours makes a certain narrative sense, but the proposed system doesn't sound that much better. It doesn't distinguish between 'this person actively sabotages our plans and is working against us' and 'this person is a useful mercenary', and I feel that means we're swapping one imperfect mechanism for another.
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MissCrumpet Posts: 113 8/14/2015	lady ciel wrote: I can understand where the worry comes from. We have been told that favours will be harder to get than the current connections; will be capped but also be used for a lot of the things we currently spend connections on ... item conversions; conflict cards; etc. You also need connections to do other things in game at the moment - gaining a profession (and some of the weekly payment for certain professions comes in connections as well); opening a Salon; etc. So this is a really big change and until it goes live we are left with the uncertainty of how things are going to work. I agree with this. I especially don't understand why you would need a favor to do a high-level item conversion. I've always imagined these interactions to be mutually beneficial exchanges as opposed to favors. I doubt the Revolutionaries are paying me for Eyeless Skulls just because they are nice and want to free up my deck. I think part of the problem is that we don't know how many CPs of connected will translate into favors. Does a player with connected 50 (and I know it will be faction-dependent) get 7 favors during the transition? If you only get 2 or 3 favors plus renown, it seems that it's very difficult to get favors and not really equivalent to an item conversion. And with the favors cap, anyone who has hundreds of points of connected would be wasting connections, which are now both a role play and practical resource, for renown (which is not financially useful) and a maximum of 7 favors. It's a bit self-interested, but I imagine most players want exactly enough Society connected to get 7 favors, and would use the rest to get money. I think decoupling notoriety from what you're owed makes a lot of sense. It is a feature I've thought about a lot. But as long as the value of favors, their uses, and the ease of obtaining them are incorrect, I think it makes sense to be skeptical and perhaps ditch your urchins for financial gain. -- Julia C, a creatively named lady. I am always looking to expand my circle of acquaintances and enjoy pleasant social interactions.
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Flyte Administrator Posts: 671 8/14/2015	dov wrote: So, will have have the opportunity to cache in our Criminals Connections before the change? How about an option (in a pinned storylet) to use a small amount of Connected:Criminals to force draw the Implausible Penance card? Good idea – given the lack of reliable opportunities to spend criminal connections outside of the opportunity deck, we've added a branch that does exactly this to the Write Letters storylet in your lodgings. Ian Hart wrote: Also, is there any particular reason for the favour cap? I'm not opposed to it, just curious what the design reason is for it. There are a few related ones. It's easier to design for. For an example, suppose a player is at a party where they can spend 3 Society Favours to get out of scrapes. If there's no way to get those at the party, we can assume that players will only be able to do this twice. We also realised that we wanted a Connected-like quality that was more volatile, so that players might go from having a lot to a little (or vice versa) very quickly. Finally, we wanted to set up a rhythm where players frequently find ways to take advantage of them, rather than collecting a large number and doing the same thing with all of them in a single action-intensive go. metasynthie wrote: No Favours, Low Renown = "uh, who are you again and why should we listen to you?" Some Favours, Low Renown = "we owe this one something" Many Favours, Low Renown = "I don't know who you are, but word's come down that we do this for you" No Favours, High Renown = can't be trusted / infamous / burnt up all the goodwill Some Favours, High Renown = valued ally Many Favours, High Renown = "one of us" I like this a lot, but it's unlikely to fit well with the volatility of Favours. It would kind of work at low Renown, where rapid changes of attitude make sense, but it would be weird to go from valued ally to outsider because you'd asked for some help with your Scandal. dov wrote: According to how you described it, Renown is more for RP reasons (and/or bragging) and will have very little gameplay influence. So this means anyone who starts with high Renown (due to having now lots of Connected) will have harder time getting a few Favours. Sure, if they plan to use those Favours just to increase their Renown, then indeed they have a net gain. But if they want the Favours for anything else, they would be at a disadvantage. To be clear, the branches at the Carnival will lock after a rather small number of uses. We haven't settled on a number yet, but the total value of the criminal Favours you might acquire there is likely to be roughly that of, say, a Storm-Threnody. At high levels, raising Renown will have dramatic effects on quirks. It might make sense to reduce your Connected if you'd like as much control as possible over those, but I don't think the Carnival branches are a compelling (mechanical) reason. Why not keep those branches in the Carnival similar to how they are now? That is, provide one or two Favours but only if you don't have any, and give a bit of Renown only up to a low cap. This is one of many alternatives we considered. The problem is that we can't allow unlimited use of the Carnival branches for Favours, because that will destroy their value as a pacing mechanism. And we don't want to make them give Favours up to a low cap (for instance, Favours: Criminals 1), because that would heavily incentivise tedious playstyles. (It would make it mechanically optimal to spend Favours as soon as you had enough for the use that most interested you, and then grind at the Carnival before acquiring more from other sources.) Ian Hart wrote: Will the Favor cap be on gaining them, or on obtaining them? That is, will you be locked out from taking those actions when at 7, or will your 8th simply disappear into the aether when you would earn it? The cap will work like the cap on Persuasive or Watchful. If you're at seven Favours, you won't be able to get more. If you're at six Favours and play a branch that awards two, you'll still only have seven. But it will be unusual to receive more than one Favour of a given type from a single action. So long as you find uses for them when you reach seven, you'll usually be fine. lady ciel wrote: I sometimes end up zeroing my widow to get SBL from the Docks/Widow card, So if I build up renown as I play will I lock myself out of regaining her favour? No. Renown won't lock you out of any of the usual sources of Widow or Docks Favours: only out of branches at the Carnival, which primarily exist to provide a small leg up for new players.
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lady ciel Posts: 2548 8/14/2015	Flyte wrote: xKiv wrote: ETA: specifically, I don't like the idea that spending favours would lock me out (almost all?) ways to gain favours. I'm not sure where this worry is coming from. In the opening post: An individual Favour is very valuable, so it won't be straightforward to grind them. The main ways to acquire them will be opportunity cards, rare successes, one-off stories, and individual branches that form part of a wheel. In particular, you'll always be able to gain Favours using branches on the existing Connected cards. So you'll always have at least one reliable source. None of those sources will lock just because you've spent Favours. It is true that Carnival branches will have a limited number of uses, but they're a peculiar special case with very limited bandwidth. edited by Flyte on 8/14/2015 I think that is part of the problem - favours are going to be necessary but they are not going to be easy to get. Widow and University factions don't even have Connected Cards and, at the moment, those are the connections I use a lot. I would like to know more about the "individual branches" and hope they work along the same lines as "An audience with the widow" in Spite or "A colleague with a problem" even if it takes several steps to earn a favour. -- ciel Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things. No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible. storynexus name - reveurciel
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RandomWalker Posts: 948 8/14/2015	It does feel as though this is going to make several common grinds that much harder, or just not practical. SBL from the Docks / Widow card, for example, is probably not going to be as efficient, as it would require the player to earn favours from both and then cash them in. At present it's not too hard to boost Widow until it hits 30+, and then the card will turn up soon enough. With the new way of doing things, you need to get favours from the docks (and that card has a number of very nice options on it already, so getting those favours will carry a lost opportunity cost), favours from the Widow (however they will be gotten - new cards into the deck won't be popular), and then cash them in. You've gone from waiting for one standard frequency card, to waiting for three of them, along with increased cost for each one, and lost opportunities to match. Another example: getting magnificent diamonds. One way to do it was to sell casing in the flit until you had 30 Connected:Criminals, and then cash in on the appropriate card. It was reasonably grindable, which was good news for people interested in Zubmarines. We know that this is going to change. We don't know if it's going to be any easier, but at a minimum you will have to draw two opportunity cards rather than one. It all feels as though things will almost certainly be slower and probably harder. If you've got a goal in mind, the opportunity cards are a frustrating break in the flow. And I must admit, I am worried that more cards will be added to my poor, cluttered, deck. edited by RandomWalker on 8/14/2015
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suinicide Posts: 2409 7/28/2016	It probably will be better once they've finished all the updates, since the undiscardable cards will require five of the other factions as well. So it shouldn't be as common. (Also I thought the fate purchase was just a favour, not a level of renown? Can someone who has actually done this say?) -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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thedeadlymoose Posts: 214 8/13/2015	This seems like a really promising and interesting system overhaul. Renown sounds like a really nice quality. I like that its specific meaning is up to the player, and that it can't be lowered. It also feels very sensible as an unlock requirement. Favours also seem pretty neat -- especially adding special opportunities! Exciting. RE: Affair of the Box options -- I know they're mechanically worse, but I admit, I play these options merely because I like the flavor text, which improved the Affair grind more overall for me by fleshing out the world around more. I would be sad to see them go. Overall, though, the changes to Conflict cards sound very neat. I'm pretty pleased that getting Favors from Connected cards is a Thing now. I've always loved Connected cards, but stopped having reason to play most of them a while back. They always felt like they should be pretty central to the Connection in question... and now, they will be! I'm also pleased that renown conversions will take into account actual distribution. My Connected: Criminals 50+ was far, far harder to get than pretty much any other connection I deliberately raised. (whereas I sneezed in the direction of Hell and my connection went up) Questions: How might this interact with "Closest To" and "Counting The Days"? When cashing in favours for high-level conversions, will high-level conversions remain at the same payout levels, or will they be buffed to compensate for the significantly increased cost (represented by the favours you spent)? If so -- in what ways? Re: the last one; Criminals is an interesting test case here because it already has a very high cash-in value, and as far as I know and I could be totally wrong, people don't spend a lot of time converting Rag Trade items and never really need to. But this wouldn't apply to, say, Bohemians and Nostalgia items, or Church and Wines items. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Eris~Jay http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Red~Rose
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Gillsing Posts: 1203 8/13/2015	Flyte wrote: 1) I have lots of Connected: Criminals. What will happen to it? We'll convert part of it into Favours. If you have a lot of Connected, we'll convert what's left into Renown. Renown is harder to raise than Connected, so the exchange won't be one to one: we haven't settled on a number yet, but 200 Connected, for instance, might become 25 Renown. If you'd prefer material rewards, you can trade your Connected for items before we implement the new system. Since we don't know how hard Renown will be to get, an arbitrary number (like 25) doesn't say a whole lot. Especially not when we don't know how much would first be spent on seven Favours. Which could be interesting for people to know. As for the opportunity to trade in our connections before the new system is implemented, will you be making The Smugglers' Grave and other storylets from An implausible penance available as regular storylets for this purpose? If not, I might not be able to draw the card often enough to trade in all my 7000+ CPs (level 165), and that particular storylet is what I have based their value on. (Apart from wanting to reach the top title at 150, that is. But that title will be gone, so all that would be left would be the material value. And I doubt that 7 Favours would be worth as much as 635 Echoes, even after accounting for the 127 Actions it would take to get all those Souls.)
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Sara Hysaro Moderator Posts: 4514 8/13/2015	I dunno about bestowing favours even after you're renowned in the faction. I've just read through all the carnival text on the wiki, and only a few of them could be construed as anything more than idle conversation. If you're past the first impression stage with the faction it doesn't make sense for them to hand out favours for just a bit of chitchat. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome. Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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friendshipranger Posts: 274 8/13/2015	This sounds cool, but some thoughts and questions: -Is this going to be listed as a new thing in the sidebar, like Notability? -I like the Favors system, but what would be nice for Renown would be to still have titles associated with each rung/ couple of levels of it. In a RP sense, a little goes a long way- a phrase like Enigma Enkindler or Masterminds' Master would go a long way. -I'm totally gonna get 7 of each kind. Watch me. You think you're gonna make it grind-unfriendly, but I have not yet begun to grind. -It would be nice to have Renown checks, like for quirks or in games like Pillars of Eternity. I shouldn't be getting frisked on the way to a ball if I'm "Known in Every Nook" for Society, I guess. Plus since it's a non-expendable resource like your abilities, it becomes more indicative of character. -It'd be also cool to maybe have some indication of how "Renowned" certain characters in the game are. Like, it'd be nice to set a Persuasive character's long term goal to eclipse the Duchess in renown. -Finally, I don't think there should be an upper cap on Renown. Title caps are fine, but it'd be a nice thing simply to ratchet up if you so choose. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/J.L.%20Moriarty
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The Master Posts: 804 7/28/2016	MrBurnside wrote: Màiread wrote: ... but the changeover for the rubberies introduced a new item only available at 40 renown and it seems safe to assume that the other factions will follow suit.... I'm curious about this. I've seen other people say the same, but I don't remember any official statement that the other factions would be getting items. Is it safe to assume? Did I just overlook/not remember something? Individual Rubberies are a common sight on the streets of London, but their "Connected: Rubberies" didn't have a ton of ways to interact with it. It seems as though those items may have been added just so high-Connected players felt rewarded for their efforts. If so, then Hell or the Church might not receive the same benefits. They mentioned in the rubbery favours and renown thread that they will start doing this for every faction and as I remember they will give the factions already converted to this system items too. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lolwolfking A very ruthless and daring doctor of the neath. No more gift exchanges, im getting too many and I can barely hold these. He has knowledge of a certain enigma, ask, you will get a clue.
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th8827 Posts: 823 7/28/2016	Most easy grinds disappear after the change. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/th8827 Gone NORTH. It's nice here.
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ofelina Posts: 18 7/28/2016	well that's annoying. I think my biggest problem with favors is how infrequent they are - most are tied to the RNG of pulling the right card. it makes them feel way too precious to use them as currency like the creators intend. edited by ofelina on 7/28/2016 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Ofelina
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Sara Hysaro Moderator Posts: 4514 8/12/2015	I'm looking forward to eventually seeing how/if this affects the Masters of the Bazaar connection. I might be able to see Mr Pages again, and that would be pretty fun. I doubt cashing those favours would be very profitable given the cost, but I could build it to 7 and see what new things it may unlock. That's assuming this will affect the unusual connections in any way, of course. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome. Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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CameoAppearance Posts: 146 8/12/2015	I mostly think this change is for the better, although it does make the game a little more complicated. The place where I have reservations is the Affair of the Box options that are currently on conflict cards. Will the opportunity to advance the Affair of the Box carousel instead of using up Favours for either side still be a branch on conflict cards in the new system? Will they be available but moved to different cards? I hope they don't go away, because they're currently the main thing I use conflict cards for at all. (Some of my friends don't even find conflict cards worthwhile with that option, so I hope the undiscardable versions are more lucrative.) With regard to Connected: Masters -- which I've been idly grinding because it gives me something to do and I like being friends(?) with giant wickedly avaricious space bats -- the Connected value goes up much, much more slowly under the old system than just about any other Connected quality. It doesn't seem likely that Connected: Masters 2, Connected: Masters 6, and Connected: Masters 10 will all turn into the same amount of Renown given how much expensive grinding you have to do to get it past about 2 or 3. I have confidence in Failbetter's thoughtfulness and attention to detail here. edited by CameoAppearance on 8/12/2015 -- Dr Cameo “Scary Teeth” Thurlow, that toothy androgyne with the wickedly sharp curly quotes
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38thDoE Posts: 60 8/12/2015	Question: Will we have to spend favors to perform item conversions? If so, ouch! -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/38thDoE
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Jeremy Avalon Posts: 345 8/12/2015	Knee-jerk questions: 1. Conflict cards are presently practically infinite for a player with a wide range of connections, which makes Affair of the Box and Someone Is Coming options widely available. Will these be moved to other cards, will they disappear entirely, or will those grinds be restructured slightly? 2. Will we need to cash in Favours for high-tier item conversions, will it be a Renown check, or will those requirements be removed? 3. noooooo my precious expedition supply grind (this isn't a question) EDIT: and also: 4. noooooo my precious pre-Nadir Revolutionaries cash-out opp-card grind (actually given the system as you've outlined it I assume this option will remain and I'll just have to re-run the numbers on it) edited by Jeremy Avalon on 8/12/2015 -- How we must glow; yes, I bet we look like snow.
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Hypersomnus Posts: 76 8/12/2015	I am excited for the changes! How will affect "scarlet saint"? -- Maxwell Q Tenebris; Agelastic Ailuromancer, Scarlet Saint, Monochromatic Myrmidon and Correspondent Accepting all social actions besides loitering and Photographer. Are you a Scarlet Saint? get on the list! A Map of the Iron Republic
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Ian Hart Posts: 437 8/12/2015	Are people aware that you can advance the Affair of the Box in Spite? I'm pretty sure it's more profitable that way as well... My understanding is the options for it on conflict cards are only for people who get their Turncoat menace too high and don't resolve it... Edit: Also, is there any particular reason for the favour cap? I'm not opposed to it, just curious what the design reason is for it. edited by Ian Hart on 8/12/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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Kaigen Posts: 530 8/12/2015	I like the Favours/Renown split. My character feels a certain kinship and affinity toward the Urchins, but eventually I just had to tank that Connection to clean up my deck. It'll be nice to be able to reflect a good reputation with the gangs (via renown) without necessarily being roped into a lot of conflicts (via favours). -- Just a simple doctor with a chess habit. Publisher of The Flit Dispatch. "One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible." -Jacques Derrida
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genesis Posts: 924 8/12/2015	I really like this change. Really, really. Have much curiosity about some implementation aspects: 1. Will Renown gain be capped (like the Quirks) or completely unconstrained? Will it be used to unlock content? 2. Will "Someone is Coming" system be substantially overhauled as it currently relies predominantly on the conflicts cards, or will simply be a more expensive trait to grind? 3. What's the intended impact on "Call in favours" storylets? 4. What is the intended interplay (if at all) with the "Closest to" quality? -- http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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Matthew Cline Posts: 64 8/30/2015	Another concern: Currently the most cost-efficient way (both in terms of echos and in terms of actions) to get supplies in the Forgotten Quarter is to buy a Engraved Pewter Tankard, use it to increase the Docks connected quality, then spend that plus 50 rostygold to get 3 supplies. If favors are going to be hard to get, will a Docks favor get a lot more supplies, or will the echo and actions cost for straight-out buying supplies be lowered? -- My game profile is at http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Matthew~Cline
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marcmagus Posts: 168 9/7/2015	jhodder wrote: Wait, how do the connection-boosting items work now? I was considering investing in a pewter tankard soon for expeditions, but I'm not keen to waste 60 echoes. The Tankard costs 50 echoes, and sells to the Bazaar for 47.50; when it eventually changes if you no longer want the tankard you'll only be out 2.50, not 60. Not such a big worry. -- marcmagus, a scholar of the Correspondence of some minor note and bold explorer of the new Unterzee.
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Barrogh Posts: 6 7/28/2016	So, a quick question. What will Renown be useful for, in general? So far I can see options like supplying expedition with Renown: Docks which is kinda cheaper than other options. Is this what the general idea for Renown is?
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Sara Hysaro Moderator Posts: 4514 8/16/2015	Paramount Presence is a riddle no one has solved yet; a riddle that may not yet have an answer within the game at this time. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome. Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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Cimanyd Posts: 38 8/16/2015	MissCrumpet wrote: I might go out of my way to draw cards in the Flit to cash in favors with the Revolutionaries, since that's not an easily accessible action. Or it might be beneficial to do item conversations now, before favors are necessary. I am just speculating. If this change has been made for Criminals, shouldn't something similar happen for Revolutionaries and Urchins before they get converted to the new system? Flyte wrote: dov wrote: So, will have have the opportunity to cache in our Criminals Connections before the change? How about an option (in a pinned storylet) to use a small amount of Connected:Criminals to force draw the Implausible Penance card? Good idea – given the lack of reliable opportunities to spend criminal connections outside of the opportunity deck, we've added a branch that does exactly this to the Write Letters storylet in your lodgings. -- Cimanyd, the Northbound Correspondent "There are some things we were not meant to know, they say. But you wouldn't be down here if you took that seriously."
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Griffith Posts: 1 9/5/2015	Oh, it seems that I have joined in the interesting times. In the future, will all Connected qualities be split in Favours and Renown, or some will remain? Also - is there some estimated time to finish the transition (in a month or before the beginning of 2016?) or it's too unpredictable to make such plans?
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jhodder Posts: 12 9/6/2015	Matthew Cline wrote: Another concern: Currently the most cost-efficient way (both in terms of echos and in terms of actions) to get supplies in the Forgotten Quarter is to buy a Engraved Pewter Tankard, use it to increase the Docks connected quality, then spend that plus 50 rostygold to get 3 supplies. If favors are going to be hard to get, will a Docks favor get a lot more supplies, or will the echo and actions cost for straight-out buying supplies be lowered? Wait, how do the connection-boosting items work now? I was considering investing in a pewter tankard soon for expeditions, but I'm not keen to waste 60 echoes. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/jhodder
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Corran Posts: 401 8/13/2015	Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote: Man, I'd love to see those stats. It would be fascinating to know which factions are the most popular. I would too; and the conversion would be a great time to give those stats if Failbetter were so inclined. Would make an interesting infographic too. I think my stats are relatively high for most and I wonder how they will convert. [spoiler] [/spoiler] edited by Corran on 8/13/2015 -- My Fallen London profile
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MadmanAtW Posts: 231 8/14/2015	Right now, there are a lot of things that cost just a little bit of a connection just for flavor- for instance, on the Crying His Wares storylet on Wolfstack In the Fog, "A Little Extortion" lowers your connection: Docks slightly. It would be nonsensical to have this cost a Favour, and Renown doesn't go down. Similarly, Fun With the Fisher Kings, and so on. It'll be a little sad to lose these small bumps and costs of Connection that had little gameplay effect but a lot of flavor. edited by MadmanAtW on 8/14/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Madman~Across~the~Water http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Xoricco Accepting any social actions except the Affluent Photographer. Would appreciate warning of dupings/betrayals/rats.
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38thDoE Posts: 60 8/14/2015	Granted I only started playing this year, but it does seem like the game is being made more difficult slowly. I'm not really sure why. Examples I've seen so far are souls getting much harder to recover, stat boost living stories being taken down, inescapable menace cards, and this. If it effects item conversions a ton of different things including things that don't really have a ton of monetary gain but are fun will be made more difficult. (Getting M____'s B___d, going on expeditions, etc). -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/38thDoE
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Vex Posts: 38 8/14/2015	Don't forget the Salon/Orphanage options for the Handsome Townhouse when implementing these changes - at the moment, it's "grind a connection up to 20 for some points to use", which I admit at the moment is pretty easy (though naturally one has to wait for the card, and, of course, Schemes are most useful to those seeking a COLOUR PLATE or other such bounties). But, it'd just be a good idea to make sure that whatever projected changes are being made to the Townhouse mechanics, they are fairly reachable. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Vex%20Lereunt
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Szadovar Posts: 113 8/15/2015	Flyte wrote: Our current thinking: lower-level conversions won't require Favours. Higher-level conversions will consume one Out of curiosity, by "higher-level" do you mean the top tier conversions in each category, or two/three highest ones? Also, do you plan on increasing the benefits of said conversions? Getting a bit of Connected:whatever required for them is mostly a trivial thing, according to what you presented, favours will be much more problematic... -- https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Szadovar
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Ben Posts: 657 8/16/2015	Is nobody going to be able to get paramount presence until all of them are converted over to renoun from connections, or is the check being updated one at a time? -- The wind has no destination. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/IcountFrom0
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Sara Hysaro Moderator Posts: 4514 8/15/2015	The colour plate is the type of entry in Slowcakes Exceptionals that is given to the most Notable of individuals. Notability 15, exactly. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome. Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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Gillsing Posts: 1203 8/14/2015	metasynthie wrote: Addendum: looks like force-drawing Implausible Penance costs 11 CP of Criminals, in case anyone's wondering. That's good to know. And as annoying as it is to have to pay to cash in, the choice between a few Storm Threnodies' worth of Favours (+Renown) and 42 Storm Threnodies' worth of Souls seems pretty clear to me.
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xKiv Posts: 846 8/14/2015	Flyte wrote: xKiv wrote: ETA: specifically, I don't like the idea that spending favours would lock me out (almost all?) ways to gain favours. I'm not sure where this worry is coming from. It came from considering what the connected items are currently for, and how they work. Which brings me back to the actual question - what's happening with those? -- https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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Sara Hysaro Moderator Posts: 4514 9/6/2015	Unless you pick the Quirk boosting option you can use the connection items without losing them. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome. Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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Kaigen Posts: 530 9/6/2015	True, but Pewter Tankards probably won't provide favours after the switch, so if you're not interested in Renown: The Docks, it won't be terribly useful. That said, it may well be quite some time before they get around to switching The Docks connection over to the new system, so I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to get your essential expeditions done in the meantime (as well as getting to the point in the game where 60 echoes is not a terrible loss). -- Just a simple doctor with a chess habit. Publisher of The Flit Dispatch. "One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible." -Jacques Derrida
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Estelle Knoht Posts: 1751 8/16/2015	Ben wrote: Is nobody going to be able to get paramount presence until all of them are converted over to renoun from connections, or is the check being updated one at a time? Paramount Presence is very probably not about getting high connections with all factions, since we have a few people who did precisely that - do you know that the Great Game is even harder to gain than Criminals? -- Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady. I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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MissCrumpet Posts: 113 8/16/2015	Gillsing wrote: So I'm sure there's no rush to get rid of other connections, and most of them aren't worth much anyway when traded in for something tangible. Mostly due to all the Actions it takes to trade them in for 2.40 Echoes at a time. (Good thing I still have access to the Court so I can trade in Society for 10 Echoes at a time.) I might go out of my way to draw cards in the Flit to cash in favors with the Revolutionaries, since that's not an easily accessible action. Or it might be beneficial to do item conversations now, before favors are necessary. I am just speculating. -- Julia C, a creatively named lady. I am always looking to expand my circle of acquaintances and enjoy pleasant social interactions.
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dov Posts: 2580 7/28/2016	Barrogh wrote: So, a quick question. What will Renown be useful for, in general? So far I can see options like supplying expedition with Renown: Docks which is kinda cheaper than other options. Is this what the general idea for Renown is? Renown is not mean to be used as currency - it can only increase, never decrease. Favours are the "currency" of connections to factions. Renown is used either as an unlock requirements for certain branches and/or items, and for RP / bragging rights. -- Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how. (Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Màiread Posts: 385 7/28/2016	The grneral idea seemed to be that reknown wasn't useful, really, except very low-level unlocks like the one you mentioned, but the changeover for the rubberies introduced a new item only available at 40 renown and it seems safe to assume that the other factions will follow suit. Raising your renown to high levels also affects your quirks, if that interests you. -- Màiread - Correspondent, composer, lover of cats. Can probably bake you a d__n fine cake. Useful Links: Traveller's Friend (Progress Tracker & Notability Calculator) \| phryne's Guide to Favours & Renown \| Peggy the Nowoman lived to see the Feast. Thank you for the memories, Snow Lady. I'm happy to accept most social actions except for lethal sparring and loitering suspiciously. Please challenge my plant! Currently not accepting calling cards.
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suinicide Posts: 2409 7/28/2016	Thrres also items at 10 and 25. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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marcmagus Posts: 168 8/30/2015	Assuming Docks Favours work out to a valuation similar to Criminals, 1 Docks Favour for 3 Supplies would still be the most cost-effective way to get supplies, especially since it would effectively cost 2 fewer actions than it does now. Of course it would no longer be grindable assuming it relies on Opportunities. It might remain as-is and we'll have to figure out the next least-expensive grindable source of supplies to recommend. Which might, if my notes are correct, reasonably enough, be Archaeological Notes for POSI. Secrets for others. Docks is kind of a huge outlier in Supplies cost. It being left as an outlier but made ungrindable might be a good thing. Although it would hurt EPA for Expeditions, if it's too big an effect that could potentially be addressed by slightly buffing the rewards, even just by adjusting the relative frequencies. -- marcmagus, a scholar of the Correspondence of some minor note and bold explorer of the new Unterzee.
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ofelina Posts: 18 7/28/2016	last I heard Urchins were the next on the list, which doesn't help with rubberies (or constables), but should be fairly easy to grind (assuming the source in the Flit still works post-transfer) -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Ofelina
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metasynthie Posts: 645 8/12/2015	Interesting! I think I like it. A spendable resource that caps at 7! A one-way resource that only increases and can never be spent! That's similar to say, the traditional way "XP" works in a lot of games, but quite different than the way most FL resources work -- at least those that can be earned in quantity. This nicely decouples the "cash in" part of your relationship with a group with the "known amongst" part, but also makes me wonder if there will be storylets, cards or branches that aren't available if your Renown with a particular group is too high. Some that raise your Renown, presumably, but other branches as well? This would be a pretty big difference between the connection-hoarding players (e.g. Estelle Knoht!) and those who are frequently zeroing out connections for sellable resources and/or to remove conflict cards from their decks. The part that has me scratching my head the most is the redesign of conflict cards. They pop up quite frequently in the current deck, although that's in part because ten of them have the low requirement of Connected 5 in each side. I do think this particular card-grind needs reworking, as bouncing back and forth between two sides of a conflict is currently the cheapest (if not fastest) way to grind up, giving a persistent feeling of "always playing both sides" as opposed to say, the stories implying that Turncoat is a pretty unsavory reputation! The two high-level conflicts (Docks-Widow and Criminals-Constables) feel more balanced in this respect, and the "massive loss of one connection in exchange for material rewards" feels like a precedent for the new conflict card concept. On the other hand, the undiscardable part seems a little tricky; I get that it helps stop players from constantly fence-sitting to have "the most of everything," but are the rewards going to scale based on number of favours lost, kind of like Striped Delights / Silver Horseheads / Briny Insights? Also, it sounds like there's a threshold above which these undiscardable cards will appear -- perhaps something like "5 or more favours of each side." If you bleed off favours into items or renown until one is below 5, presumably the undiscardable conflict card will vanish (kind of like happens with Someone is Coming), letting you discard it in a way that doesn't zero out your favours. I'm guessing here that one might want to get rid of it that way since undiscardables have mostly been used for things that players want to avoid since they have some kind of negative consequence. Odd. I also like the lopsided nature of connections in London -- Society is easy to come by, Urchins and Docks much less so above connected-item levels, Revolutionaries is super-profitable if you hang around in the Flit. There are some weird rumples in the current system (like cashing in Revolutionaries...) but it's kind of nice that the connection terrain is (appropriately, thematically) a strange and asymmetrical topology. Also interested to see what happens with the Shepherd of Souls card, which rewards with Connections rather than the more purely-profit-driven rewards for spirifers. I guess that card may give favours in this redesign? edited by metasynthie on 8/12/2015 -- Positively antique http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/metasynthie
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RandomWalker Posts: 948 8/12/2015	I like the idea in concept, although I'm obviously worried about the implementation. Item upgrades, as mentioned above, could get punishingly harder if you need to grind favours as well. I presume that changing 'Closest to' will be easier, with people cashing in all their favours before dumping their old friends. How will, for example, selling casing to criminals in the Flit work? Sell a much bigger chunk for a favour, and it becomes grindable. Sell it for renown and it becomes worth considerably less than it did as you used to be able to get diamonds for it. Add some other reward to the action? I'm sure that there are answers to all these questions, and all the others, but forgive me for some trepidation. Oh, and biggest worry: depending on how expensive it will be to get favours from the connection cards, people at the end game may find it hard to progress (much like quirks now). (That being said, many thanks for giving us the heads up). edited by RandomWalker on 8/12/2015
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Kittenpox Posts: 869 8/12/2015	Seurat wrote: looks up from grinding, poorly, connected: the masters. um wait what Yup. Same. :-p As for my own commentary, gonna put the wall of text behind a spoiler tag: [spoiler]A little while ago I dumped a lot of the connections I didn't need (most of them were 50+ and I wanted to thin out my Opportunity deck by removing some Conflict cards), and as of earlier today I'm no longer Closest To anyone, due to finally giving up on their connected card appearing, insisting upon Favorable Circumstances, and then Thwarting a Revolutionary operation from the Inside. (I needed a certain bottle of M______ B____ for my Lodgings, but didn't want to remain Closest To them.) So I'm not sure just how the changes will affect me. While I do agree with the changes from Connected to Favours, and the addition of Renown (I was thinking something exceptionally similar the other day), I don't understand why the Renown wouldn't ever lower. If I've just betrayed the Revolutionaries, even if they don't owe me a thing, I'm not sure I should expect them to welcome me with open arms quite so immediately afterwards because my Renown hadn't shifted. Similarly, with the Docks and Great Game, choosing to Violate the zailors' most sacred superstition or Desecrate the hidden Shrine to St. Joshua surely should have some longer-term repercussions? Or at least make them not quite as willing as they were before to re-accept you. I suppose if it's described as a measure of awareness of you - how well-known you are within that faction - that would make sense. But fame (or infamy) doesn't seem like the sort of thing you should just be able to collect infinitely and never lose. PS:- Will Renown likely cap out at some level? Or increase indefinitely like the Walking the Fallen Cities / Seeing through the Eyes of Icarus / etc. seem to do?[/spoiler] -- Kittenpox Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^ Metaphysical Caprice: 11. - Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-) NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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Guest 8/12/2015	Will Renown actually matter, or will it be more like the current quirk system, where it's mostly just a grind to show off, and only the easily grindable levels matter? Not saying that's a bad thing, just trying to make decisions on if I should be trading in my connections for practical rewards or grinding them up. Other than having a large house, or favoring only one side, will there be a way to manage conflict cards? Quests one could undertake to get the factions to work in harmony, or options on the card to get them both to leave you alone without losing favour?
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Flyte Administrator Posts: 671 8/12/2015	penknife wrote: I hope whatever your calculations are about converting Connected into Renown/Favors, they take into account differences in how hard various Connections are to grind. Don't worry – we know some Connected qualities are easier to gain than others, and we'll be setting the exchange rate in each case based on the actual distribution of Connected values among players. Hypersomnus wrote: How will affect "scarlet saint"? I'm not sure, but this looks like a natural place for a couple of Renown requirements. It's optional and intentionally hard to achieve, and the fiction is built around reputation rather than trade in favours. metasynthie wrote: This nicely decouples the "cash in" part of your relationship with a group with the "known amongst" part, but also makes me wonder if there will be storylets, cards or branches that aren't available if your Renown with a particular group is too high. Some that raise your Renown, presumably, but other branches as well? High Renown will indeed lock some branches that raise it, but it's extremely unlikely that we'd use it as a max requirement in any other context. It won't be possible to reduce Renown, and we don't want to punish players for possessing it by permanently locking them out of content. are the rewards [for conflict cards] going to scale based on number of favours lost, kind of like Striped Delights / Silver Horseheads / Briny Insights? ... If you bleed off favours into items or renown until one is below 5, presumably the undiscardable conflict card will vanish... Yes on both counts. Rewards will scale because we don't want players to feel obliged to micromanage their Favours. And we pretty much always make undiscardable cards vanish if a player no longer meets the requirements; it's very hard to think of a situation where we'd want to lumber them with a card they can neither play nor discard. I also like the lopsided nature of connections in London... I do, too. I expect much of that to remain: some Favours will be harder to come by than others, and we like powerful options that also happen to advance [spoiler]the Liberation of Night.[/spoiler] Master Polarimini wrote: Another thing that could be fun is using some Connections that are polar opposites (Criminal-Constables, Church-Hell, Revolutionaries-Masters) to create opportunities and/or storylets linked to their respective value of Renown/Favour/Infamy... We're interested in experimenting with opportunities that require certain combinations of Favours: for instance, a branch that requires more Favours: Urchins than Favours: Constables. It's unlikely we'll add anything like an Infamy quality, although we might make more use of other qualities like Turncoat to achieve some overlapping effects. UltimusLight wrote: So between the main Connections and Renown conversions, what will be happening to Connected: The Masters and the like in the interim? Will they remain unchanged until you focus your attention to making a proper conversion? They will.
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Matthew Cline Posts: 64 8/12/2015	1) So what about the Big Top and Sideshow at the Carnival? 2) I'm a new player, so what is a "connection item"? Is that something like a "Antique Constable's Badge", which can be bought at the Bazaar and be used to increase connections? -- My game profile is at http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Matthew~Cline
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38thDoE Posts: 60 8/13/2015	Flyte wrote: 38thDoE wrote: Question: Will we have to spend favors to perform item conversions? If so, ouch! Our current thinking: lower-level conversions won't require Favours. Higher-level conversions will consume one. That will make The Bethlehem and Bazaar much lodgings quite a bit harder to get. Also wines will now require two cards for every Airag, unless you'll need them from T3 items and up in which case three cards? I hope that if you go through with that change than the conversions themselves become more profitable at least. Edit: coloured text confiscation. That's mod only here. edited by Flyte on 8/13/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/38thDoE
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lady ciel Posts: 2548 8/14/2015	The more I think about this the more I worry about how this will change the game and how it is played. Though I do trust Failbetter and hope that it all works out. Going back to gaining Favours via the Carnival - I sometimes end up zeroing my widow to get SBL from the Docks/Widow card, So if I build up renown as I play will I lock myself out of regaining her favour? One I am really concerned about is Benthic Favours . As, at the moment, that connection is needed to Manufacture Searing Enigmas which I tend to do when I have a mood card so will use it more than seven times. It is also used for two or three high tier conversions including converting Extraordinary Implications to get the Uncanny Incunabulum to manufacture the enigmas. Other things that won't affect me but what about choosing or changing Professions. Or opening a Salon. How will this work with the new system? -- ciel Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things. No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible. storynexus name - reveurciel
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Flyte Administrator Posts: 671 8/13/2015	Master Polarimini wrote: Do you know already when Criminal will be changed for the experiment, or you don't have yet a clear schedule? We're aiming to do this in the last week of August. Matthew Cline wrote: So what about the Big Top and Sideshow at the Carnival? Our current thinking is that these branches will grant a Favour and a small amount of Renown. They'll have a fairly low max Renown requirement, so you'll only be able to play them a few times – in fictional terms, think of it as people being welcoming to a newcomer. This does mean that starting with high Renown will lock you out of a handful of easy Favours. It will still be a large net gain, because raising Renown is Favour-intensive. Mazsqurad wrote: How will this affect the options to raise the 4 main stats (W/S/D/P) on the connected cards? Those options will remain and consume Favours. We'll be adjusting the size of the stat bonuses; I haven't looked at the values for every Connected group, but the ones on the Criminals card will probably be several times more effective after the change.
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Anne Auclair Posts: 2215 7/28/2016	It would be nice if there were options at the Carnival insuring you had access to at least one favor, should you need it and are willing to pay. That would also prevent the Carnival from being neglected. Since they changed Dockers to the favor system I've visited the Carnival somewhat less. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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MrBurnside Posts: 188 7/28/2016	Màiread wrote: ... but the changeover for the rubberies introduced a new item only available at 40 renown and it seems safe to assume that the other factions will follow suit.... I'm curious about this. I've seen other people say the same, but I don't remember any official statement that the other factions would be getting items. Is it safe to assume? Did I just overlook/not remember something? Individual Rubberies are a common sight on the streets of London, but their "Connected: Rubberies" didn't have a ton of ways to interact with it. It seems as though those items may have been added just so high-Connected players felt rewarded for their efforts. If so, then Hell or the Church might not receive the same benefits.
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suinicide Posts: 2409 7/28/2016	Especially ones that give low amounts of connected. And 1 cp is pretty low. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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MrBurnside Posts: 188 7/28/2016	The Master wrote: MrBurnside wrote: Màiread wrote: ... but the changeover for the rubberies introduced a new item only available at 40 renown and it seems safe to assume that the other factions will follow suit.... I'm curious about this. I've seen other people say the same, but I don't remember any official statement that the other factions would be getting items. Is it safe to assume? Did I just overlook/not remember something? Individual Rubberies are a common sight on the streets of London, but their "Connected: Rubberies" didn't have a ton of ways to interact with it. It seems as though those items may have been added just so high-Connected players felt rewarded for their efforts. If so, then Hell or the Church might not receive the same benefits. They mentioned in the rubbery favours and renown thread that they will start doing this for every faction and as I remember they will give the factions already converted to this system items too. I must have missed that. Thanks.
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Brin Posts: 53 7/29/2016	Agreed, thank you very much for sharing that. On the topic of Urchins being the next conversion, how much do you think we'll need of that Connection? -- It's odd, the turns fate takes. I chased my spouses' killer to the Neath, and in the process I found my spouse again. It's peculiar, avenging the death of a loved one, when you have tea with them every afternoon.
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Màiread Posts: 385 7/29/2016	It's hard to say as we have no official announcement on the conversion rate, and even if you were to guess based on the previous changes it isn't clear if or how the 'base rate' will be adjusted to reflect the relative difficulty of grinding connections. I would hazard at least 300 connected to reach max renown, almost certainly a lot more. There are pleasures and advantages to grinding it up post conversion, of course; I had 0 rubbery connection but I'm thoroughly enjoying raising it with favours and the wee storylets have quite endeared them to me. Plus there's the quirk boosts, of course. -- Màiread - Correspondent, composer, lover of cats. Can probably bake you a d__n fine cake. Useful Links: Traveller's Friend (Progress Tracker & Notability Calculator) \| phryne's Guide to Favours & Renown \| Peggy the Nowoman lived to see the Feast. Thank you for the memories, Snow Lady. I'm happy to accept most social actions except for lethal sparring and loitering suspiciously. Please challenge my plant! Currently not accepting calling cards.
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