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Favours and Renown Messages in this topic - RSS

Flyte
Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671

8/14/2015
xKiv wrote:
ETA: specifically, I don't like the idea that spending favours would lock me out (almost all?) ways to gain favours.
I'm not sure where this worry is coming from. In the opening post:
An individual Favour is very valuable, so it won't be straightforward to grind them. The main ways to acquire them will be opportunity cards, rare successes, one-off stories, and individual branches that form part of a wheel. In particular, you'll always be able to gain Favours using branches on the existing Connected cards. So you'll always have at least one reliable source.
None of those sources will lock just because you've spent Favours. It is true that Carnival branches will have a limited number of uses, but they're a peculiar special case with very limited bandwidth.

edited by Flyte on 8/14/2015
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lady ciel
lady ciel
Posts: 2548

8/14/2015
Flyte wrote:
xKiv wrote:
ETA: specifically, I don't like the idea that spending favours would lock me out (almost all?) ways to gain favours.
I'm not sure where this worry is coming from. In the opening post:
An individual Favour is very valuable, so it won't be straightforward to grind them. The main ways to acquire them will be opportunity cards, rare successes, one-off stories, and individual branches that form part of a wheel. In particular, you'll always be able to gain Favours using branches on the existing Connected cards. So you'll always have at least one reliable source.
None of those sources will lock just because you've spent Favours. It is true that Carnival branches will have a limited number of uses, but they're a peculiar special case with very limited bandwidth.

edited by Flyte on 8/14/2015




I think that is part of the problem - favours are going to be necessary but they are not going to be easy to get. Widow and University factions don't even have Connected Cards and, at the moment, those are the connections I use a lot. I would like to know more about the "individual branches" and hope they work along the same lines as "An audience with the widow" in Spite or "A colleague with a problem" even if it takes several steps to earn a favour.

--
ciel

Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.

No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.

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RandomWalker
RandomWalker
Posts: 948

8/14/2015
It does feel as though this is going to make several common grinds that much harder, or just not practical.

SBL from the Docks / Widow card, for example, is probably not going to be as efficient, as it would require the player to earn favours from both and then cash them in. At present it's not too hard to boost Widow until it hits 30+, and then the card will turn up soon enough. With the new way of doing things, you need to get favours from the docks (and that card has a number of very nice options on it already, so getting those favours will carry a lost opportunity cost), favours from the Widow (however they will be gotten - new cards into the deck won't be popular), and then cash them in. You've gone from waiting for one standard frequency card, to waiting for three of them, along with increased cost for each one, and lost opportunities to match.

Another example: getting magnificent diamonds. One way to do it was to sell casing in the flit until you had 30 Connected:Criminals, and then cash in on the appropriate card. It was reasonably grindable, which was good news for people interested in Zubmarines. We know that this is going to change. We don't know if it's going to be any easier, but at a minimum you will have to draw two opportunity cards rather than one.

It all feels as though things will almost certainly be slower and probably harder. If you've got a goal in mind, the opportunity cards are a frustrating break in the flow. And I must admit, I am worried that more cards will be added to my poor, cluttered, deck.
edited by RandomWalker on 8/14/2015
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metasynthie
metasynthie
Posts: 645

8/14/2015
Keep in mind that the current conflict cards -- 10 of which appear as soon as you have only 5 of two types of connection -- will be appearing much more rarely because they'll require a significant amount of two types of favour. It'll be easier to keep those cards out of your hand by not accumulating lots of conflicted favours, and when you do draw one, playing it or getting rid of it will mean zeroing out one of the types of favour that causes it to appear. Overall, this sounds like the deck is being thinned.

If the Docks/Widow card works similarly to how it currently does, cashing in Widow favours for several Strong-Backed Labour would zero out Widow favours, but not Docks favours, so you'd only need to gather up Widow favours again. That may or may not involve a new Widow connection card -- those might be grindable via this new "branches that form part of a wheel" thing, which sounds like it's a carousel of some sort that you'd use instead of say, attending an audience with the Widow 40 times.

Similarly, if Favours give boosted amounts of things that Connections currently do, like a larger amount of stat increase on connected cards, the same could be applied to item conversions. Right now doing one conversion of 25 Extraordinary Implications to 5 Uncanny Incanabula costs 4 actions' worth of Benthic connection. If a Benthic favour is harder to get (it seems like they might be worth say, 50-100 CP of connections) then the conversion might give you a larger quantity of items (even at the same ratio) or give a more valuable success bonus.

It's too bad Favours will be volatile enough that 0 Favours, high renown = "infamous traitor" doesn't make much sense. Right now, losing a ton of connections does feel rather like being out of the good graces of one faction or another, although there are few consequences involved.

I'm seriously pondering cashing in all my connections so that I can see what it's like to clamber up from low Renown, get some of those low-hanging Favours, and mess around with quirks... I guess it wouldn't hurt to do that with my ~1000 CP of Criminals to see what this first one's like!

Addendum: looks like force-drawing Implausible Penance costs 11 CP of Criminals, in case anyone's wondering.
edited by metasynthie on 8/14/2015

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xKiv
xKiv
Posts: 846

8/14/2015
Flyte wrote:
xKiv wrote:
ETA: specifically, I don't like the idea that spending favours would lock me out (almost all?) ways to gain favours.
I'm not sure where this worry is coming from.


It came from considering what the connected items are currently for, and how they work.

Which brings me back to the actual question - what's happening with those?

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https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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lady ciel
lady ciel
Posts: 2548

8/14/2015
I can understand where the worry comes from. We have been told that favours will be harder to get than the current connections; will be capped but also be used for a lot of the things we currently spend connections on ... item conversions; conflict cards; etc. You also need connections to do other things in game at the moment - gaining a profession (and some of the weekly payment for certain professions comes in connections as well); opening a Salon; etc. So this is a really big change and until it goes live we are left with the uncertainty of how things are going to work.

--
ciel

Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.

No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.

storynexus name - reveurciel
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Fhoenix
Fhoenix
Posts: 602

8/14/2015
I dunno, I liked being owned a lot of favor through connections. True, I would never cash it in, but it feels good to have influence. Making favor volatile means putting an upper limit on what connections can achieve. You will never be able to have a faction in your pocket.
My dream was always that connection would unlock permanent new options that would not consume it. Like having 100 or 200 Church would give you a better candles source than unfinished business. Not because I need more candles, mind, I just wanted the game to better reflect my status.
If high renown does not do anything in the game and is more or less for bragging, I would be less interested in it. I want qualities that do something, not another newspaper or Successful Terms as Governor (btw I don't know if you are ever going to expand Carnelian content, but if Terms unlocked more benefits in the carousel or even drove the story of improving the colony it would breath a lot of life into that content).

It's super good that Faction cards will have more uses. It's super not good if it will make bulk item conversion harder. But, well, we'll see.

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MissCrumpet
MissCrumpet
Posts: 113

8/14/2015
lady ciel wrote:
I can understand where the worry comes from. We have been told that favours will be harder to get than the current connections; will be capped but also be used for a lot of the things we currently spend connections on ... item conversions; conflict cards; etc. You also need connections to do other things in game at the moment - gaining a profession (and some of the weekly payment for certain professions comes in connections as well); opening a Salon; etc. So this is a really big change and until it goes live we are left with the uncertainty of how things are going to work.


I agree with this. I especially don't understand why you would need a favor to do a high-level item conversion. I've always imagined these interactions to be mutually beneficial exchanges as opposed to favors. I doubt the Revolutionaries are paying me for Eyeless Skulls just because they are nice and want to free up my deck. smile

I think part of the problem is that we don't know how many CPs of connected will translate into favors. Does a player with connected 50 (and I know it will be faction-dependent) get 7 favors during the transition? If you only get 2 or 3 favors plus renown, it seems that it's very difficult to get favors and not really equivalent to an item conversion. And with the favors cap, anyone who has hundreds of points of connected would be wasting connections, which are now both a role play and practical resource, for renown (which is not financially useful) and a maximum of 7 favors. It's a bit self-interested, but I imagine most players want exactly enough Society connected to get 7 favors, and would use the rest to get money.

I think decoupling notoriety from what you're owed makes a lot of sense. It is a feature I've thought about a lot. But as long as the value of favors, their uses, and the ease of obtaining them are incorrect, I think it makes sense to be skeptical and perhaps ditch your urchins for financial gain.

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Julia C, a creatively named lady. I am always looking to expand my circle of acquaintances and enjoy pleasant social interactions.
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MadmanAtW
MadmanAtW
Posts: 231

8/14/2015
Right now, there are a lot of things that cost just a little bit of a connection just for flavor- for instance, on the Crying His Wares storylet on Wolfstack In the Fog, "A Little Extortion" lowers your connection: Docks slightly. It would be nonsensical to have this cost a Favour, and Renown doesn't go down. Similarly, Fun With the Fisher Kings, and so on. It'll be a little sad to lose these small bumps and costs of Connection that had little gameplay effect but a lot of flavor.
edited by MadmanAtW on 8/14/2015

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RandomWalker
RandomWalker
Posts: 948

8/14/2015
metasynthie wrote:
Keep in mind that the current conflict cards -- 10 of which appear as soon as you have only 5 of two types of connection -- will be appearing much more rarely because they'll require a significant amount of two types of favour. It'll be easier to keep those cards out of your hand by not accumulating lots of conflicted favours, and when you do draw one, playing it or getting rid of it will mean zeroing out one of the types of favour that causes it to appear. Overall, this sounds like the deck is being thinned.


Not thinned, just easier to thin. Easier to dump favours certainly, but now dumping them has consequences - favours will be used to unlock flavour content. We won't know until it becomes live, but it is possible that the answer to some of our questions is that there are going to be new connected cards for the currently uncarded factions (widow, university, masters etc.). It also sounds like some connection cards are getting even more heavily loaded; the docks, society, and bohemian are already too heavily loaded for me (i.e. there are multiple attractive options on those cards, hence my not farming kittens any more).

metasynthie wrote:

If the Docks/Widow card works similarly to how it currently does, cashing in Widow favours for several Strong-Backed Labour would zero out Widow favours, but not Docks favours, so you'd only need to gather up Widow favours again. That may or may not involve a new Widow connection card -- those might be grindable via this new "branches that form part of a wheel" thing, which sounds like it's a carousel of some sort that you'd use instead of say, attending an audience with the Widow 40 times.


Fair point, although I'm not sure what the 'branches that form part of a wheel' means; I don't think that it's a carousel. Be interesting to see what FB have got in mind.

metasynthie wrote:

Similarly, if Favours give boosted amounts of things that Connections currently do, like a larger amount of stat increase on connected cards, the same could be applied to item conversions. Right now doing one conversion of 25 Extraordinary Implications to 5 Uncanny Incanabula costs 4 actions' worth of Benthic connection. If a Benthic favour is harder to get (it seems like they might be worth say, 50-100 CP of connections) then the conversion might give you a larger quantity of items (even at the same ratio) or give a more valuable success bonus.


Well, it'd be nice to be wrong, but FB have a very firm hand on the game economy. I'd be surprised see them making any changes that makes it easier to grind echoes. A lot of good grinds have been nerfed over time (selling your soul, cashing in running battle, hunter's keep, bottled oblivion, Cave of the Nadir (still good, but was much better), fidgeting writer (see Cave of the Nadir), and I'm sure there have been others). It would be nice to have easier ways to get some of the rarer items that are currently best found in the side-streets, though.

One thing I'm really not sure on is _why_ this is being done. The current system isn't noticeably broken. Splitting renown and favours makes a certain narrative sense, but the proposed system doesn't sound that much better. It doesn't distinguish between 'this person actively sabotages our plans and is working against us' and 'this person is a useful mercenary', and I feel that means we're swapping one imperfect mechanism for another.
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38thDoE
38thDoE
Posts: 60

8/14/2015
Granted I only started playing this year, but it does seem like the game is being made more difficult slowly. I'm not really sure why.

Examples I've seen so far are souls getting much harder to recover, stat boost living stories being taken down, inescapable menace cards, and this. If it effects item conversions a ton of different things including things that don't really have a ton of monetary gain but are fun will be made more difficult. (Getting M____'s B___d, going on expeditions, etc).

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Gillsing
Gillsing
Posts: 1203

8/14/2015
metasynthie wrote:
Addendum: looks like force-drawing Implausible Penance costs 11 CP of Criminals, in case anyone's wondering.
That's good to know. And as annoying as it is to have to pay to cash in, the choice between a few Storm Threnodies' worth of Favours (+Renown) and 42 Storm Threnodies' worth of Souls seems pretty clear to me.
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Vex
Vex
Posts: 38

8/14/2015
Don't forget the Salon/Orphanage options for the Handsome Townhouse when implementing these changes - at the moment, it's "grind a connection up to 20 for some points to use", which I admit at the moment is pretty easy (though naturally one has to wait for the card, and, of course, Schemes are most useful to those seeking a COLOUR PLATE or other such bounties). But, it'd just be a good idea to make sure that whatever projected changes are being made to the Townhouse mechanics, they are fairly reachable.

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Ben
Ben
Posts: 657

8/15/2015
Vex: Colour Plate? I don't think I've ever heard of that, can you enlighten?

Oddly when everybody else is eager to sell DOWN, I'm trying to bring myself UP in rank, I want to exchange 77 levels of criminals.

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The wind has no destination.
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Sara Hysaro
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514

8/15/2015
The colour plate is the type of entry in Slowcakes Exceptionals that is given to the most Notable of individuals. Notability 15, exactly.

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Estelle Knoht
Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751

8/15/2015
Having just sent out invites, I wonder - how will the connections earning / spending at the Temple Club be adjusted?

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MissCrumpet
MissCrumpet
Posts: 113

8/15/2015
Sara Hysaro wrote:
The colour plate is the type of entry in Slowcakes Exceptionals that is given to the most Notable of individuals. Notability 15, exactly.


I was so close before I gave away a few points. Do you get to keep the plate if you lower your notability in the future, as I plan to do out of the kindness of my heart (and disinterest in constantly maintaining making waves 15)?

On a more germane note, will the Criminals change happen before all the others? I don't want to sell off all my connections and then regret it...

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Julia C, a creatively named lady. I am always looking to expand my circle of acquaintances and enjoy pleasant social interactions.
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Sara Hysaro
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514

8/15/2015
It's not an item, it's just the quality description.

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Szadovar
Szadovar
Posts: 113

8/15/2015
Flyte wrote:
Our current thinking: lower-level conversions won't require Favours. Higher-level conversions will consume one

Out of curiosity, by "higher-level" do you mean the top tier conversions in each category, or two/three highest ones? Also, do you plan on increasing the benefits of said conversions? Getting a bit of Connected:whatever required for them is mostly a trivial thing, according to what you presented, favours will be much more problematic...

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Gillsing
Gillsing
Posts: 1203

8/15/2015
MissCrumpet wrote:
On a more germane note, will the Criminals change happen before all the others? I don't want to sell off all my connections and then regret it...
I don't know how else to interpret this, from the last part of the first paragraph of the first post in this very thread:

Flyte wrote:
And because Connected qualities are used so widely, we won't be making the changes in one go. To begin with we'll use this system for just one of London's amorphous factions, the criminals.


So I'm sure there's no rush to get rid of other connections, and most of them aren't worth much anyway when traded in for something tangible. Mostly due to all the Actions it takes to trade them in for 2.40 Echoes at a time. (Good thing I still have access to the Court so I can trade in Society for 10 Echoes at a time.)
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