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Favours and Renown

Master Polarimini Posts: 310 8/12/2015	I'm with randomwalker by saying "I like the idea in concept, although I'm obviously worried about the implementation." Whatever will be, I'm glad this system will be changed. I have also found quite strange how to interpret the meaning in-game of the Connections value. Yes, I know it represents how connected you are with one power group of Fallen London, but I think it was never ideally implemented and sometimes there happened quite quirky things. Of the new system I'm just perplexed about one thing, that is it doesn't seem to consider bad actions against one Connection. In the very example of robbing the Embassy, I completely get you do not decrease (and perhaps even increase) Renown Hell, but I find strange there is no downside except losing Favours. It would be great if there were a sort of "Infamy" indicator for each connection that could work as a minor menace, which could make some damaging opportunity cards appear or even some storylets (of course you could buy the Infamy away by consuming favours of that Connection or with other mechanisms). Another thing that could be fun is using some Connections that are polar opposites (Criminal-Constables, Church-Hell, Revolutionaries-Masters) to create opportunities and/or storylets linked to their respective value of Renown/Favour/Infamy (e.g. if you are a certain value of Infamy Hell and Renown Church you could attract the attention of some high-level clergymen to do something). -- Devices workshop opening soon... Follow my story at http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Master~Polarimini
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TheThirdPolice Posts: 609 8/12/2015	I am enthusixcited about the senseful reëxploration of favoribibity. I predict many requesters upturning responsiscoveries to their own questions — though more will apparitate, indoubtedly. ~~~~~ Renown: Masters 20? PM me for indiscretions. edited by TheThirdPolice on 8/12/2015 -- Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens Lover of Flawed Souls And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Kade Carrion (an_ocelot) Posts: 1372 8/12/2015	I think this sounds very sensible and opens up some interesting possibilities for stories. I like it. -- Social Actions: send them to Kade Carrion (she/her; no Tournament of Lilies, please). an_ocelot has gone NORTH and cannot benefit from social actions! Possibly-Useful Things: Spreadsheets and hints and link collections, oh my.
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Kylestien Posts: 749 8/12/2015	Renown Your Renown represents the extent to which you are known to members of the Connected group: it's a measure of your celebrity or notoriety or both. It can go up, but it won't go down; you might lose your Favours: Hell if you're caught robbing the Embassy, but it won't make Hell forget about you. And there's no way to spend it. If you own a Connected item, you'll be able to spend Favours to increase Renown. The more Renowned you are, the harder it will be to increase. At higher levels, increasing it will also affect quirks, potentially raising them above 10. So... what does renown actualy do? -- I will accept all actions, though I hold the right to refuse for my own reasons. However, if you explain WHY you send me a harmful action like Loitering or Dantes,And I feel the reason good, I will consider it more. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Kylestien Persuasive patron. You want a lesson, send me a message asking for one.
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Flyte Administrator Posts: 671 8/12/2015	38thDoE wrote: Question: Will we have to spend favors to perform item conversions? If so, ouch! Our current thinking: lower-level conversions won't require Favours. Higher-level conversions will consume one. Jeremy Avalon wrote: Conflict cards are presently practically infinite for a player with a wide range of connections, which makes Affair of the Box and Someone Is Coming options widely available. Will these be moved to other cards, will they disappear entirely, or will those grinds be restructured slightly? We're probably going to remove the Affair of the Box options. There's actually no mechanical reason to play them rather than the storylets in Spite, which are all either equally good or a little better – unless you're using them to flush a non-discardable card, which is not something we particularly want to enable. Conflict cards will continue to affect Someone Is Coming, but you'll draw them less often. Lots of other cards also increase it. Nigel Overstreet wrote: Can people like Nathan Attford Fenwick who have a ridiculous amount of Connected that the new system can't possibly reflect get some kind of singular accomplishment or item to reflect that they once got an insane amount of Connected? We'd rather not create unique qualities; it takes time we could otherwise spend improving the game for everyone, especially once you factor in concerns about fairness – if we do this for Connected: Society, would we have to do it every time we retire a quality? If not, where would we draw the line? The reward for remarkable levels of Connected will be remarkable levels of Renown. RandomWalker wrote: Oh, and biggest worry: depending on how expensive it will be to get favours from the connection cards, people at the end game may find it hard to progress... Getting Favours from Connected cards will be pretty straightforward, at least in most cases. Unlike quirks, Favours won't have banded level caps. But it will take time or luck to get from zero to seven, by design. Danko wrote: One question - will Renown be actually used for anything, or is it just a roleplaying stat? It's primarily for roleplaying. We may sometimes use it as a branch requirement because it's easy to write for and may be a better fit for some existing content, but it should always feel optional – it certainly won't unlock any major stories or be mandatory to progress. Kittenpox wrote: I don't understand why the Renown wouldn't ever lower. If I've just betrayed the Revolutionaries, even if they don't owe me a thing, I'm not sure I should expect them to welcome me with open arms quite so immediately afterwards because my Renown hadn't shifted. They might not welcome you, but they'll certainly remember you. Favours measure indebtedness, and Renown measures how well-known you are. We won't be tracking whether that Renown is celebrity, notoriety, envy, adoration, or something altogether more complicated – we'll leave that to you, the player. genesis wrote: 1. Will Renown gain be capped (like the Quirks) or completely unconstrained? 3. What's the intended impact on "Call in favours" storylets? We don't plan to set a fixed cap, but there will come a point at which the requirements to raise are too arduous to meet. Call in favours storylets will work much as they do at present, except that they'll consume Favours and in most cases have significantly higher payouts.
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Hypersomnus Posts: 76 8/12/2015	I am excited for the changes! How will affect "scarlet saint"? -- Maxwell Q Tenebris; Agelastic Ailuromancer, Scarlet Saint, Monochromatic Myrmidon and Correspondent Accepting all social actions besides loitering and Photographer. Are you a Scarlet Saint? get on the list! A Map of the Iron Republic
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chunkymonkey99 Posts: 8 8/12/2015	I don't know about Renown not EVER lowering as a thing. For much the same reason that Notability, Making Waves, Scandal and Suspicion all reduce over time, I feel like Renown should too, at least story and flavour wise. Also, you mentioned trading Favours for Renown. It might make sense for Renown to make it easier to acquire Favours as well. If you're more well known, it's easier to get what you want from people.
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Nigel Overstreet Posts: 1220 8/12/2015	Flyte wrote: The reward for remarkable levels of Connected will be remarkable levels of Renown. That sounds perfect. Thanks for the response! -- The Romantic Egotist: Most Hedonistic Man in All of Fallen London Are you or someone you know Overgoated? Please, let me know! Cider Club
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BillyMaysss Posts: 4 8/12/2015	One more thing to have to really grind for. Thanks I guess -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/BillyMaysss Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.
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Sara Hysaro Moderator Posts: 4514 8/12/2015	I'm looking forward to eventually seeing how/if this affects the Masters of the Bazaar connection. I might be able to see Mr Pages again, and that would be pretty fun. I doubt cashing those favours would be very profitable given the cost, but I could build it to 7 and see what new things it may unlock. That's assuming this will affect the unusual connections in any way, of course. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome. Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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genesis Posts: 924 8/12/2015	I wonder if this is where the key to Paramount Presence lies... -- http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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UltimusLight Posts: 12 8/12/2015	So between the main Connections and Renown conversions, what will be happening to Connected: The Masters and the like in the interim? Will they remain unchanged until you focus your attention to making a proper conversion? -- Samuel has finally gone NORTH. Rest in peace, Lord Blackwell III. For in-game stuff, message Sammy B.
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Flyte Administrator Posts: 671 8/12/2015	penknife wrote: I hope whatever your calculations are about converting Connected into Renown/Favors, they take into account differences in how hard various Connections are to grind. Don't worry – we know some Connected qualities are easier to gain than others, and we'll be setting the exchange rate in each case based on the actual distribution of Connected values among players. Hypersomnus wrote: How will affect "scarlet saint"? I'm not sure, but this looks like a natural place for a couple of Renown requirements. It's optional and intentionally hard to achieve, and the fiction is built around reputation rather than trade in favours. metasynthie wrote: This nicely decouples the "cash in" part of your relationship with a group with the "known amongst" part, but also makes me wonder if there will be storylets, cards or branches that aren't available if your Renown with a particular group is too high. Some that raise your Renown, presumably, but other branches as well? High Renown will indeed lock some branches that raise it, but it's extremely unlikely that we'd use it as a max requirement in any other context. It won't be possible to reduce Renown, and we don't want to punish players for possessing it by permanently locking them out of content. are the rewards [for conflict cards] going to scale based on number of favours lost, kind of like Striped Delights / Silver Horseheads / Briny Insights? ... If you bleed off favours into items or renown until one is below 5, presumably the undiscardable conflict card will vanish... Yes on both counts. Rewards will scale because we don't want players to feel obliged to micromanage their Favours. And we pretty much always make undiscardable cards vanish if a player no longer meets the requirements; it's very hard to think of a situation where we'd want to lumber them with a card they can neither play nor discard. I also like the lopsided nature of connections in London... I do, too. I expect much of that to remain: some Favours will be harder to come by than others, and we like powerful options that also happen to advance [spoiler]the Liberation of Night.[/spoiler] Master Polarimini wrote: Another thing that could be fun is using some Connections that are polar opposites (Criminal-Constables, Church-Hell, Revolutionaries-Masters) to create opportunities and/or storylets linked to their respective value of Renown/Favour/Infamy... We're interested in experimenting with opportunities that require certain combinations of Favours: for instance, a branch that requires more Favours: Urchins than Favours: Constables. It's unlikely we'll add anything like an Infamy quality, although we might make more use of other qualities like Turncoat to achieve some overlapping effects. UltimusLight wrote: So between the main Connections and Renown conversions, what will be happening to Connected: The Masters and the like in the interim? Will they remain unchanged until you focus your attention to making a proper conversion? They will.
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Matthew Cline Posts: 64 8/12/2015	1) So what about the Big Top and Sideshow at the Carnival? 2) I'm a new player, so what is a "connection item"? Is that something like a "Antique Constable's Badge", which can be bought at the Bazaar and be used to increase connections? -- My game profile is at http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Matthew~Cline
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Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493 8/12/2015	Matthew Cline wrote: 2) I'm a new player, so what is a "connection item"? Is that something like a "Antique Constable's Badge", which can be bought at the Bazaar and be used to increase connections? Yep, that's right! Flyte wrote: penknife wrote: I hope whatever your calculations are about converting Connected into Renown/Favors, they take into account differences in how hard various Connections are to grind. Don't worry – we know some Connected qualities are easier to gain than others, and we'll be setting the exchange rate in each case based on the actual distribution of Connected values among players. Man, I'd love to see those stats. It would be fascinating to know which factions are the most popular. -- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Ben Posts: 657 8/13/2015	This sounds like the time to ask. Paramount Presence [spoiler] Current theory includes maxing out all connections to be renowned enough. How much of renown is going to be required for it after the conversion? [/Spoiler] -- The wind has no destination. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/IcountFrom0
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38thDoE Posts: 60 8/13/2015	Flyte wrote: 38thDoE wrote: Question: Will we have to spend favors to perform item conversions? If so, ouch! Our current thinking: lower-level conversions won't require Favours. Higher-level conversions will consume one. That will make The Bethlehem and Bazaar much lodgings quite a bit harder to get. Also wines will now require two cards for every Airag, unless you'll need them from T3 items and up in which case three cards? I hope that if you go through with that change than the conversions themselves become more profitable at least. Edit: coloured text confiscation. That's mod only here. edited by Flyte on 8/13/2015 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/38thDoE
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Corran Posts: 401 8/13/2015	Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote: Man, I'd love to see those stats. It would be fascinating to know which factions are the most popular. I would too; and the conversion would be a great time to give those stats if Failbetter were so inclined. Would make an interesting infographic too. I think my stats are relatively high for most and I wonder how they will convert. [spoiler] [/spoiler] edited by Corran on 8/13/2015 -- My Fallen London profile
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thedeadlymoose Posts: 214 8/13/2015	This seems like a really promising and interesting system overhaul. Renown sounds like a really nice quality. I like that its specific meaning is up to the player, and that it can't be lowered. It also feels very sensible as an unlock requirement. Favours also seem pretty neat -- especially adding special opportunities! Exciting. RE: Affair of the Box options -- I know they're mechanically worse, but I admit, I play these options merely because I like the flavor text, which improved the Affair grind more overall for me by fleshing out the world around more. I would be sad to see them go. Overall, though, the changes to Conflict cards sound very neat. I'm pretty pleased that getting Favors from Connected cards is a Thing now. I've always loved Connected cards, but stopped having reason to play most of them a while back. They always felt like they should be pretty central to the Connection in question... and now, they will be! I'm also pleased that renown conversions will take into account actual distribution. My Connected: Criminals 50+ was far, far harder to get than pretty much any other connection I deliberately raised. (whereas I sneezed in the direction of Hell and my connection went up) Questions: How might this interact with "Closest To" and "Counting The Days"? When cashing in favours for high-level conversions, will high-level conversions remain at the same payout levels, or will they be buffed to compensate for the significantly increased cost (represented by the favours you spent)? If so -- in what ways? Re: the last one; Criminals is an interesting test case here because it already has a very high cash-in value, and as far as I know and I could be totally wrong, people don't spend a lot of time converting Rag Trade items and never really need to. But this wouldn't apply to, say, Bohemians and Nostalgia items, or Church and Wines items. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Eris~Jay http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Red~Rose
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Gillsing Posts: 1203 8/13/2015	Flyte wrote: 1) I have lots of Connected: Criminals. What will happen to it? We'll convert part of it into Favours. If you have a lot of Connected, we'll convert what's left into Renown. Renown is harder to raise than Connected, so the exchange won't be one to one: we haven't settled on a number yet, but 200 Connected, for instance, might become 25 Renown. If you'd prefer material rewards, you can trade your Connected for items before we implement the new system. Since we don't know how hard Renown will be to get, an arbitrary number (like 25) doesn't say a whole lot. Especially not when we don't know how much would first be spent on seven Favours. Which could be interesting for people to know. As for the opportunity to trade in our connections before the new system is implemented, will you be making The Smugglers' Grave and other storylets from An implausible penance available as regular storylets for this purpose? If not, I might not be able to draw the card often enough to trade in all my 7000+ CPs (level 165), and that particular storylet is what I have based their value on. (Apart from wanting to reach the top title at 150, that is. But that title will be gone, so all that would be left would be the material value. And I doubt that 7 Favours would be worth as much as 635 Echoes, even after accounting for the 127 Actions it would take to get all those Souls.)
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