Powered by Jitbit .Net Forum free trial version.

HomeSunless Sea

A game of survival, trade and exploration in the universe of Fallen London

Making the Monies, a New Trade [spoilers] Messages in this topic - RSS

lord1box
lord1box
Posts: 62

8/5/2015
I found a very reliable, if somewhat convoluted way to make a lot of money: selling mirrorcatch boxes full of angry dream-snakes.

It requires:

-1 Clay Man
-1 Mirrorcatch Box
-1 Memory of Distant Shores
-1 Tale of Terror
-1 Zee-ztory

-Get acquainted with the sisters, but don't advance the sisters' story any further.
-Advance the Tireless Mechanic's story so that he asks you to go to Hunter's Keep.

Here's how you do it. The order doesn't matter as long as you go to Hunter's Keep last:

-You get 6 trophies, and exchange them at Godfall
-Go to Polythreme to get your free zombies... err... Clay Men.
-Go to Khan's Heart or Khan's Shadow to buy yourself 6 mirrorcatch boxes

-Go to Hunter's Keep and convert 1 Clay man, 1 mirrorcatch box, 1 memory, 1 tale, and 1 Z-ztory into a Serpent Trap
-Speak to the Tireless Mechanic to convert your Serpent Trap into a mirrorcatch box full of angry dream-snakes
-Sell said Trap at the Traveler's Friend in Khan's Shadow

Pro:
-Very profitable
-Reliable
-Can be combined with other high profit routes
-The ingredients can be obtained in different orders.
-You won't build any menaces
-Mirrorcatch boxes full of angry dream-snakes are totally legal in Fallen London. Who knew? Apparently the Revenue men and the Ministry of Public Decency, who won't so much as scoff at you for carrying lethal dream-snakes with you everywhere you go.

Con:

-Requires a lot of travel

-You are limited to making six at once (you can't pick up new clay men, until you have no more left)
-Requires you to fight sea beasties
-These ingredients are also needed to pick up the Last Tour quest, and to make the Zong of the Zee
-Converting a Serpent Trap into a Mirrorcatch Box Full of Angry Dream-Snakes has a 50% chance of killing one of your crew members.
-Takes a lot of echoes to get started on
-You can't advance the sister's story

Con rebuttal
-If you combine this method with a big run where you achieve other objectives as well, you won't waste fuel and supplies
-You buy in at 1500 with an extra 90 for 6 crew members (the chance of losing 6 in a row is 1 in 64), you will earn 3000 from selling six
boxes, so it will net at least 1410 echoes per run. Not bad for 12 or 6 spots or cargo hold space.
-This is probably one of the biggest cons, but despair not. There are many beasties that have a 100 % drop rate on hunting trophies. Some even drop multiple trophies at once. Most of these are mid-sized monsters, which you can easily take on with one of the lighter double-gunned ships. It is not advisable to try hunting for trophies with less than 2 cannons. Fighting Z-Beasties also means that you will be looting all their fabulous treasure, and raking in lots of fragments. Just try not to bite of more than you can chew.
-Doing the Last Tour is very similar to making dream-snake boxes. Doing the Last Tour can earn you more echoes than making dream-snake boxes, provided that you manage to complete the tour with a full complement of mummies. However, the Last Tour doesn't allow you any freedom in the order of the places you go to. It can easily force you to take a longer route (thus consuming more fuel/supplies), and it takes 1 more memory, tale, and Z-ztory to entice the mummies to go on a tour with you (not to mention the 12 supplies, which can be hard on some boats with a small hold. Making dream-snake boxes is a more consistent way of making echoes as well, since the loss of any Tomb-Colonists will result in a reward that is in fact inferior to making dream-snake boxes. If you really wanted to, you could combine The Tour with making dream-snake boxes. The caveat to that route would be that you would have to earn 13 hunting trophies (and convert them at Godfall) per run. It can be done, but requires more hunting.
-So what? You make these dream-snake boxes at Hunter's Keep. Even if you were to be left with 2 crew (the minimum this action can get you to, I believe) you could still easily make it back to Fallen London without having to fear an attack. The chances of losing all 6 crew are pretty slim anyway. And the cost of getting new crew is easily covered by the massive amounts of echoes that you will be earning. No problem.
-This inevitable unfortunately. Luckily, you can use wine-trade, coffee-trade (there are multiple viable exchanges), exploration, and quests as a way to get that starting capital.
-Well, you can actually. It just makes making dream-snake boxes a lot costlier, since you will need 5 supplies and a foxfire candle instead of 1 memory, 1 tale and 1 z-ztory. This will up the cost of making a dream-snake box to around 380 echoes (excluding crew costs). It will still be profitable, just less so. The benefit to this way of doing it is that you don't need to fight Z-beasties after Hunter's Keep is in Ruins.

Good luck to you all, and I hope this helps you in your journeys.
+2 link

Guest

8/14/2015
Personally, I find the Last tour faster. However, what you wrote is true.


Also, if the House is no longer "open," it simply costs one additional Foxfire candle to the Snakes Mirrorcatch box crafting list there. Since players may have their own preferred ways of getting those candles, they can add that way's additional cost to the crafting if applicable. Ending the sister's tale at least does not end that option (but technically stays cheaper if you don't finish the storyline there yet.)
0 link
Gerald Edgerton
Gerald Edgerton
Posts: 127

8/14/2015
The microeconomics of this point have actually interested me for awhile. Bottom line first, the tomb colonists are less profitable than dream-snakes UNLESS you bring them all back safely. In that case, they are still less profitable per unit but MORE profitable per hold space consumed - so you will get richer, faster, moving full loads of Tomb Colonists, than you will moving, say, a half dozen boxes of dream snakes at a time. There is a not-so-convoluted way to carry a full dozen loads of dream snakes, but it requires 78 units of hold space before accounting for pit stops - so it's only possible in two of the game's ships, or perhaps in a Frigate with a lot of juggling going on.

The numbers:
Tomb Colonists (Number upon return =/< 11)
Input:
21 stories of various types (value ~10/ea) = ~210 echoes. This valuation is based on selling the stories to an Antiquarian or to the tomb colonies; their value when spent on secret acquisition in the Autumn Isles, or on supply acquisition in Whither, varies wildly. This uses their most direct value in Echoes as a baseline, to establish some sanity.
12 loads of supplies sacrificed up front = ~240 echoes (The London price is used as a baseline; there are tricks to cut corners here too).

Revenue upon safe return of a colonist: 100 echoes.

So, your profit will be around ((100 x colonists returned) - cost of bribes expended - 210 - 240).
Hold space required: 12, with the additional possession of certain qualities and items favoring better results
For that, a load of 11 brings in 650 echoes of profit, after accounting for 450 echoes in front-end investment. Along the way, we might lose another 100 echoes for every additional tomb-colonist lost, or if we need to lay out bribes to keep them save in Polythreme, the Shepherd's Isles, etc. And remember, a profit of 650 echoes against 12 units of cargo space is only a profit of around 54 echoes per unit of hold space, at which point you're coming out a little better if you just gather huge quantities of scintillack to sell in London. However, a renewable source of, say, 600 echoes, is a big deal to a zee-captain that would benefit from having 1k or 2k to spend on a better engine.

Now, dream-snakes:

-Front-end costs:
-6x Clay men (Free! Just be mindful of the possibility of an Unfinished Man aboard.)
-6x Mirrorcatch boxes (1,500 echoes - 50% of your eventual revenues)
-6x Firefox Candles (180 Echoes if you purchase them in Adam's Way or Khan's Heart with a trading license; we'll assume one of these, but 240 is the London price).
-30 supplies - (600 echoes (here, on principle, I use the London price as a baseline. The Masters carve greedily into your profits, although by fully exploring the zee you can work around them.)
-~3x zailors lost harvesting the dreams: (30 echoes - here the London prices favor you).

Total revenues: 6x500 = 3,000 Echoes, sold in Khan's Shadow.
Total expenses: 2,310. This allows a profit of almost 700 echoes, but the entry level costs (1,500 in mirrorcatch boxes, phew) and hold space requirements are much higher.

Troop costs only get higher, not lower, excluding the occasional volunteers. Mirrorcatch boxes are most cheaply bought with Echoes until your character is extremely powerful. Clay Men can't get any cheaper, and we already accounted for a good price on the candles. If you don't mind a lot of boredom, you can farm free supplies in the Autumn Isles with the "Something Awaits You" quality. It'll take perhaps 6 batches to cover your 30, not including an extra one or two to cover your own troops' needs. This can fatten your 690 profit margin up to 1,290, which is actually quite competitive if we're not looking at sunlight or red honey as the alternative.

This allows profit margin of >100 echoes/unit, meaning that dreams acquired with free supplies are more profitable than Tomb Colonists returned as less than a full set. However, that's only a profit of 20-30 echoes per hold space required (30+6+6+6), and the colonists have no trouble beating that number.

Revisiting the tomb colonists:
Requirements:
-A bottle of wine (given to you when you pay our stories; 20 echoes at the London price, but we'll not count it since one comes free when you pay the stories)
-21 stories (~210 echoes for which they could've sold if we didn't bother with all of these shenanigans)
-12 supplies (240 echoes at the London price; we stand to save about 40% as much money as from the other path, against a smaller payout, but it's worth what it's worth)
-A high Hearts score. Really high. Think mid-100s
-Some cash on hand, a few hundred echoes will do it
-A secure compartment, EQUIPPED
-At least 3 influence with the Leopard faction in Khan's Glory

It's a substantial grocery list, but here we go:
-Khan's Glory will take some tomb colonists unless you use political influence to secure safe passage. The Tomb-Colonists will reimburse you with a Strategic Information, which you can exchange for the lost political favor; the true cost is 2 points of Admiralty's Favor, which can be cheaply replenished the lower it gets.
-Polythreme and the Chelonate are pretty intensely prejudiced against Tomb Colonists; although sometimes you'll get mobbed and lose some, this never happens to me when I have the Secure Compartment equipped. Avoid Storm at any costs, in Polythreme; sending them hunting is actually safer.
-If the tourists go about in Gaider's Mourn then send some zailors to protect them. There will be a fairly punishing Hearts check; fail it and you lose some colonists.
-Irem is the easiest and most pleasant; just send them shopping and don't let them look East, and you'll get a heartwarming storylet and a free unit of Parabola Linen (sells for 60).
-Not losing any Tomb Colonists in the Shepherd's Isles requires a unit of supplies and a cask of mushroom wine. Good thing we got that wine in the Colonies when we signed up for this.

If you make it through 3 stops, you'll be told to take the tourists back to Venderbight.

End result:
1500 echoes + Judgement Egg (sells for 500 to London's Antiquarian, 600 elsewhere.) For now, we'll call this 2100 in revenues.

2100
-240 in supplies
-210 in stories
-bribes (unpredictable, but usually reimbursed somehow if it's expensive; some wine, a picnic, this is probably 100-200 tops.)

A perfect batch of Tomb Colonists is thus clearly worth around 1,750 in profits, but requires high Hearts, an Aft, a specialized piece of equipment, some political influence and perhaps a lot of patience if the order of stops they request is inconvenient or defies your other plans. Not losing a lot of your profits to fuel/supplies consumed while wandering aimlessly means finding a way to gather Port Reports en route to where they want to go next.

I think it goes without saying that 1,700+ transactional profits beats 1,200+ from dream-snakes, but ONLY if you get that Judgment Egg and the corresponding lift to 125/colonist for a full batch. Additionally, colonists require less hold space at one time once you've got your preparations taken care of, so you can realistically fight zee beats, haul scintillack or do whatever else you want to bring in income with your remaining hold space.

Additionally, you can increase your profit margin by 240 if you farm your supplies somewhere (Mangrove College, Aestival) instead of buying them, you can get very very close to 2k profits before accounting for lost bribes.

Tomb Colonists don't stack past 12, so that 2k is about as good as things get.

If you have 18 hold space for dream snake components, 12 for tomb colonists, everything required to avoid losing tomb colonists, and room for A LOT of supplies, you can work Hunter's Keep into your tourism route and take care of those simultaneously. Polythreme will simply become a regular stop whether the tourists want to go there or not, and the Khanate will be where you buy candles, buy mirrorcatch boxes, show off the tourists if applicable, and harvest some Vital Intelligence if Something Awaits You.

A half dozen boxes of dream snakes AND a full load of tomb colonists results in revenues of around 5100, with profits after expenses of perhaps 3,250 or thereabouts.

Working this arrangement with a merchant ship can be a great way to build the capital you need to make most serious upgrades. (2 successful runs = best lights. 1-2 successful runs = whatever engine you want. 1 successful run = whatever store-bought weapon you want.

Once your ship is properly equipped for zee beasts, things get more complex, as you account for the possibility of a three-figure harvest with few transactional costs, besides terror and possibly hull damage, alsomaybedeath.

For players who are really struggling financially but have their map filled in, Tomb Colonist runs are probably the way to go. The stories you need can be harvested in most cities, with the red honey gardens being perhaps the most effective. Irem allows you to trade stories for the types you need, although they do business at a 100% mark-up.

For players who haven't filled in their map, I find that scintillack (sells for 70, no cost except Something Awaits You and terror, Mirrors check) and Clay Men (no cost, can't stack beyond 6, sells for 20 Echoes) pay out the best if you come back alive.

When you're less worried about starving or running out of fuel, and when you get tired of giving Venderbight all of your stories, dream snakes are much more sustainable with fewer risks. Buying the supplies legitimately reduces your profits, but allows you to get to business instead of sitting around waiting for Something Awaits You. If you have a small hold, taking maybe 3 boxes instead of 6 (selling the other Clay Men for 20 echoes in London) will allow you to earn a nice 600-700 Echo profit on a 750 echo investment in the boxes.

This will eventually allow you to start purchasing a ship upgrade. Nothing before the Merchant ship will have a bigger hold than 40, although once you buy it, you'll be able not to choose between dreams and tourists.

Ultimately, combining income that relies on hold space (dream snakes, tourists) with income that does not (stories, secrets, treasure, foreign intelligence acquisition) is a central component of getting really really wealthy.
0 link
lord1box
lord1box
Posts: 62

8/17/2015
Gerald Edgerton wrote:


Now, dream-snakes:

-Front-end costs:
-6x Clay men (Free! Just be mindful of the possibility of an Unfinished Man aboard.)
-6x Mirrorcatch boxes (1,500 echoes - 50% of your eventual revenues)
-6x Firefox Candles (180 Echoes if you purchase them in Adam's Way or Khan's Heart with a trading license; we'll assume one of these, but 240 is the London price).
-30 supplies - (600 echoes (here, on principle, I use the London price as a baseline. The Masters carve greedily into your profits, although by fully exploring the zee you can work around them.)
-~3x zailors lost harvesting the dreams: (30 echoes - here the London prices favor you).

Total revenues: 6x500 = 3,000 Echoes, sold in Khan's Shadow.
Total expenses: 2,310. This allows a profit of almost 700 echoes, but the entry level costs (1,500 in mirrorcatch boxes, phew) and hold space requirements are much higher.

Troop costs only get higher, not lower, excluding the occasional volunteers.



1 You compare the Tomb-Colonist Tour Route to the most unfavorable example of dream-snake trade, namely making dream-snake boxes after you've finished The Sister's storyline. This is not what I adviced, but a suboptimal way of continuing the trade if you really wanted to that I elaborated for those who were curious. I would personally steer away from post-sister dream-snake trade like a scrubby Zee-Captain avoids Mt. Nomad. If you do it the way I advice, then the cost of making a mirrorcatch box full of dream-snakes is not 1 clay man, 1 mirrorcatch box, 1 firefox candle and 5 supplies. I have noted this in my first post, and commented on how the value of the trade will go down severely, even though it will still be profitable. The real cost to someone who is trying to earn as much as possible, just as you describe in your evaluation of the Tomb-Colonist Tour Route, is much closer to 1590 echoes (factoring in hiring crew twice and the estimated value that you could have gotten from selling the stories (based on your estimates)).
2 gaining crew does get easier, because if your hearts are high enough, and they don't need to be very high at all, you will gain 2-3 crew when you hire on more crew, instead of merely 1 crewmember.
3 Your estimates of the hold space required to do dreamsnakes vary. It's either 12 (6 mirrorcatch boxes, 6 clay men) or 48 ( 6 boxes, 6 clay men, 6 foxfire candles, 30 supplies). You will probably buy the candles somewhere else, so I'm guessing that's where you get 18 from. So based on the hold space needed post-Sisters dream-snake trading doesn't seem that worth it.
4 The dream-snake trade only requires that you have discovered Kahn's Shadow and Polythreme. The Last Tour requires you to discover The Chelonate, Gaider's Mourn, Polythreme, Irem, Shepherd's Wash and Kahn's Glory.
5 Which lead's me to my next point, the cost of fuel and supplies needed to make the trip. If you're running a bigger crew, a bigger ship, and a bigger engine this can increase dramatically. Typically the cost in fuel and supplies for doing The Last Tour (that includes getting the stories) is much higher than sailing the route from Fallen London to Polythreme to Kahn's Shadow to Hunter's Keep to Fallen London. And the time invested is typically higher as well (it would have to be with a route that's typically longer)
6 Z-ztories, memories and tales are probably worth more than 10 echoes, though not in echoes. Most of their value lies in their use for several story options for which they can be irreplacable. Still 10 echoes as a kind of makeshift monetary estimation is fine by me. Just had to note this.
7 Polythreme is easy, always pay. And in the Chelonate you should not send them hunting. That is in fact the worst option, if you're worried about losing tomb-colonists. Instead you should always let them pray (visit storm's temple). Unless you're really really worried about storm's curse, sending the colonists to his temple is always better. It can even have some amazing effects, if your iron already very very high.
8 Good to see that you're on board with the main point of my post. This is something that you could combine with some other way of earning echoes (hunting, intelligence networks, certain repeatable stories). The point is not for this to be more profitable than The Last Tour. If you discount fuel and supplies, which you can if you're simultaneously profiting from other avenues of monetary acquisition, then The Last Tour will always be more profitable (you can have a 100 % chance of coming back with 12 colonists if you have enough heart and pick the right options), but this trade can be easier, shorter, and more flexible than doing The Last Tour, which has similar requirements on the amount of stories you need. What's more, it will always be better than a failed Last Tour. The last one is not much of an argument, but in the subset of cases where a failed tour is likely it will have some merit.
9 This may be particular to my case, but I find that the Last Tour would often send me to Irem for their final stop, which is handy if you want to buy one of the many things that are available there, but I found myself in a situation where I had little reason to stop by there, except for if The Last Tour were to send me there. I guess I just got sick of shipping coffee to Irem. wink
10 I haven't developed any particularly strong arguments for it, but I think that the secure department is not really worth it compared to The Milebreaker or WE ARE CLAY. The Milebreaker will probably earn you back more echoes in terms of fuel saved, compared to the supplies lost from colonists raiding your pantry, and WE ARE CLAY makes you go just a little bit faster, which helps with keeping terror low, while keeping your lights off, which means you spend less fuel, which also saves you echoes. The main benefit to WE ARE CLAY is the Real Time saved on sailing the Zee. My routes tend to be looooong.

Long story short:

Perfecting The Last Tour will make you more echoes than trading in dream-snakes, but trading in dream snakes is more reliable in the early game and will typically take less time.
+1 link
Gerald Edgerton
Gerald Edgerton
Posts: 127

8/18/2015
Bottom line first, I agree with your last statement - that Perfecting the Last Tour makes more only under optimal circumstances, but that dream snakes are more reliable and become available earlier. Since the tourists don't stack, they can ultimately only be a better use of perhaps 15 hold space and a little startup cash.

1. Valid point. An optimal game strategy also doesn't involve completing the storyline of the Presbyterate Adventuress; I wrote this with the assumption that people would eventually complete things. Not knowing whether the Hunter's Keep storyline advances as a result of harvesting snakes, I chose to assume the non-reversible option for my calculations.
2. Agreed - I actually valued crew assuming a 100% rate of success on that challenge, since that's the cheapest reliable/grindable source of crew of which I'm aware.

3. Again, I agree to a point. If a post-Hunters captain has too little hearts for the Gaider's Mourn challenge, hasn't built up some Khanate influence, doesn't have a ship with an aft (Chelonate, etc) then tourists really don't pay well at all - 11 returned colonists, for example, will bring in a return of 1100 against free supplies, against a loss of 210+ Echoes worth of stories, fuel at whatever if any value, and a bunch of fuel which can only very carefully be made up with Port Reports. Profitable, sure, but the additional likely loss of fuel, colonists and/or fuel will reduce profits to peanuts. Dream snakes win on reliability for any captain that is NOT looking to work in red honey, which also requires the discovery of a couple particular ports, and the completion of a quest line.

4. Agreed; Dream Snakes, pre-Hunters' Keep storyline completion or post, requires less of a zee-captain overall than a top-quality Tourists run. Ultimately, the number of ports the two have in common makes it most rewarding to take 12 of one and 6 of the other, if you have at least 70 hold space. Both require substantial traffic of supplies, which can create some dramatic profit margins on farming free supplies.

5. This applies comparably to both methods of profit, and a perfect Tourists run still wins overall, all else being equal. My experience has been that the Khanate/Chelonate/Irem are all in port-crowded areas, while Polytheme (required for both quests sometimes or all the time) is more of a wild card.

6. Mathematically we're on the same page; strategically not so much. My captain has combined augmented stats of around 500; whether by using crewmate conversations to shore up the weak ones or carpentry from my study to raise the high ones, reaching a combined level of 1000 will eventually require, say, 500 secrets. I can grind 3,500 zee-stories and 40k fragments a LOT more easily than I can grind 50k echoes, to get those secrets. So if there's one thing I like about Dream-Snakes, it's that they aren't nearly as expensive in terms of opportunity cost against secret acquisition. The 10 echo option was based more on what a captain might do who was maximally desperate for cash. For the wealthy captain who is pursuing massive wealth, I generally prefer foreign intelligence acquisition - I can accrue 10+ vital intelligences and only have to stop in London to pay the Voracious Diplomat a visit to acquire an agent. That also allows you to cash in port reports to keep fuel costs down. True zee-story value is still a point in favor of Dream-Snakes, whether Hunter's Keep is completed or not.

7. I'm open to being shown otherwise, but on this point we disagree. Every time I've let them worship Storm, he demands sacrifice and I get back at least one less. Every time they've gone hunting, I got a free hunting trophy and all of my colonists back.

8. Yep, we agree on this as well. For me, the main argument against dream snakes is indeed about hold space, which is a HUGE problem for captains with low estate values. (Many early captains make the jump to a cutter just fine, but can't easily make room for fuel, supplies, mirrorcatch boxes, clay men and if applicable candles). The cheapest ship that has more than 40 hold space is the merchant ship, which is a financial leap perhaps best made with either intelligence acquisition or smaller (less than six) loads of dream snakes, or even with imperfect Colonist runs. And if Cutter pilots have room for six boxes of Dream Snakes' components, they're not going to easily maintain hold space for, say, foreign intelligence bribes or useful terror maintenance items like coffee for Irem. Clay men don't stack past 6, so this tactic still caps at 3k revenues before any expenses whatsoever, and always requires more hold space then the Last Tour. And maxing out both does not overextend a large hold.

9. Irem has a fascinating model for terror reduction. Bring some coffee - not more than 1-2 units if you aren't actively seeking large quantities of terror reduction. Buy it in the Nephrite Quarter for 40 echoes; when you reduce terror in Irem, you'll expend one unit plus "Something Awaits You," losing 10 or 20 terror and gaining a unit of Parabola-Linen which retails in London for 60 echoes. What this means is that you break even on hold space turning coffee into linen, gain 20 echoes in retail value, and lose substantial quantities of terror. While Kingeater's Castle requires the least of you besides a carefully calibrated terror level and the willingness to burn a unit of fuel and supplies, Irem basically turns a coffee into parabola linen in exchange for terror reduction. Ultimately, it's wise to carry what you need for either port. If you're in the chelonate with 97 terror, I'd break for Irem, not Kingeater's, at full power - if you make it there alive, you at least know that the terror reduction option will still work if you lose your mind along the way. I also advise actually carrying 3-4 units of coffee, so you can lose enough terror to make it back to the Nephrite Quarter for more coffee in that kind of situation. Beats paying ~700 echoes in London to clear a full terror meter, amirite?

10. I actually agree in most situations. If you are taking tourists to Gaider's Mourn or the Chelonate, my experience has been that equipping a Secure Compartment will prevent a random, luck-based loss of some tourists that fires instantly and can't be avoided with a bribe, stat check or storylet choice. In the event of Dream Snakes, their profitability can potentially take a grievous hit if your clay men go nuts. In this case, I've found that simply owning and carrying such a compartment is adequate; the clay men will be put in there whether or not it's equipped, so the worst that they can do is destroy your Clay Men, forcing another trip to Polythreme.

The length and detail of your post made me expect us to disagree about more, but really I think we agree about what the trade-offs are and simply emphasize different ones. It's a pleasure to discuss strategy with you. smile
edited by Gerald Edgerton on 8/18/2015
0 link

Guest

8/19/2015
Where math is concerned, the numbers seem sound on said replies. I'm not going to whip out my calculator on this, as the details on all sides have made their numeric points. The question comes down to time and space. No, not the Physics in Science discussion kind, but the gaming time spent and hold space.


Realistically, (not counting the dinghy-like Steam Launch one gets if allowed to abandon ship or maximizing Echoes just before retiring a game deliberately,) if one is in a starter ship or the first 2 upgrades (Lampad-class Cutter, Phorcyd-class Corvette; ) one has a very limited cargo space.
This also limits getting the previously mentioned ingredients for the legs of the trips: having to account for total carried fuel and supplies at lower cost for said legs of the trip, or losing echoes restocking en route with more expensive fuel and supplies.

The only way it easily works out is either pre-carrying most to all needed ingredients for the decided number of trade runs at best cost beforehand (as a one-time cost of additional fuel and supplies) or buying/selling in bulk on the above stops, requiring the Caligo-class Merchant Cruiser or higher upgrade ships realistically.

And if one can manage to get 8000 Echoes (or 7000 echoes and 1 K from the starter ship, 6500 Echoes and the Cutter or 6000 Echoes and the Corvette if one were to upgrade while aiming for that overall ship's goal; ) or higher, we wouldn't have to worry about starting trade routes to made enough money to continue in the first place.

(And for those who want first-time other ways to earn money, especially for the Merchant Vessel, this post is highly suggested. But now, back to these two trading routes discussion.)

For those with the 40-hold spaces, it then becomes (what was deconstructed before in said prior posts,) is it worth the time and cargo hold space to shuttle this?


For those who have an experienced stat captain, it obviously works best with the Tour, making sure you have the stats to make the checks, keeping the tour complete (and in the Chelonate, always go hunting, do NOT pray to Storm, ever; at best you break even, at worst you have to pay back what was gained to remove the curse. Pretty much, the same is true for Irem, always [will] buying the Fabric option.) Others less-statted can try it, but all people should remember the below:

Just before touring, always have a minimum of 1 wine and 2 Khan favor in stock (pre-converting pearls or coffee for favor depending on what you get easier and cheaper in raiding or trading; never start the tour before doing so or it's too late by the time you're asked to go to Khan's Glory. It's best to always restock the Favor after dealing with that specific tour stop BTW if you don't have a Favor stockpile bought or earned Helping Him in the "A Stranger in Difficulties" Khan's Heart Rare Success.)


For those who did everything they could (including the bandage option at Polythreme if lost colonists before that stop happened or getting an extra colonist just in case,) and still lost touring colonists (or needed to visit a certain spider-collective,) Albino Morays over Behemoustaches are the best option for farming colonists (bucher option only) based on a smaller treasure table yet big enough to spawn them. And I'm not even going to over-break down the too-long-to-compute random terror/fuel/supplies restocking cost for this, except say:
  • Its best spawning (potentially more than one) around the Port Cecil-Khan's Glory/Shadow (open-seas never inside the complexes) S-N route area from 1-2 (rarely 3) as the Sea of Lilies only spawns one randomly when it even does instead of the Shark.
  • Buying coffee and trading it in Irem per SAY works fastest for Terror reduction vs better Terror reduction but round-trip fuel-supplies cost (allotting some space for the -10 Terror and fabric you may get, or you may instead reduce 20 Terror and get Fragments instead,)
  • Going N to Mt. Palmerston is best to refuel.
  • If you've found them, it's likely more cost-effective to save fuel and hop over either to Empire of Hands and get at-cost supplies or risk Aestival and get supplies for free if you can afford the occasional crew loss. if very close to half crew crippling, one could always buy a single crew at heart for 30 Echoes per to keep them at fully-running a ship. (Oh, and yeah yeah, crew lives are treated cheaply both monetarily and ethically; we're a horrible person, bla bla bla, etc. disclaimer for those with a "all lives matter" conscience. smile )
  • Considering the 1500 Echoes AND Judgment's Egg (500 at the Scholar, 600 at Polythreme if not used for numerous quests) for a full tour compliment, it does make sense to restock/lower (up to a point) these fuel and supplies/Terror if you need to farm back colonists.



(What I will say about Mangrove is witnessing an Execution and getting there before the next SAY even at full power failing a check is much more profitable for those who are not merry or not supply gathering oriented. Only pick up a passenger if you have the space and you plan on going to one of the two stops anyway.)
For either trading, Supplies are NOT best farmed at Mangrove. Not only is it a random reward number which can be low considering the from-London port location to destination fuel/supplies cost if not used for any quests or island activities like Wisp-Ways, it's not close to route-sensitive areas of either trade. For supplies, it's best used as a waypoint to another destination treating like you just sunk a ship and know you're going to get supplies (but as noted earlier, I prefer it for another use after Fathoming what I was looking to witness before, camping encouraged if not successful, hint hint.)
Find Pigmote Isle, side with the Cavvies, don't steal, and you have a guaranteed 4 Supply (they give 5 but you may lose 1 supplies if waiting for a SAY reset) refresh AND all Hunger/25 Terror reduction. Unless you have the worst random location luck, the isle should be close enough to London to be only around a day's journey (or even less with the impaler.)
Still, waiting at Pigmote for (literally) minutes at a time can get boring, but feel free to work it into your routine instead.


For those who can, the idea supplies refresher are Lifebergs.
The (oh so big) Catch is not only are they 400 health (and hurt more with a Flensing gun over other types) but to gain Supplies over treasures (and treasures are awesome for trophies to trade in at Godfall for the components needed to repeat the Venderbight Tour BTW when not giving you things like unfinished logs instead,) you need to make a Mirrors check, 125 being an Auto Success.
Now in the big picture where stats cap at 100 for Officer training and often cap at 200 for most other things (besides rare SAY and other multi-turn events,) 125 isn't that hard. But for a starting captain with no legacy items and only one stat boost if they chose a past at +25, that is still daunting. For those who can get there with a high success rate for that check (and I strongly recommend advancing your officer's/Mascot's stories to their end if they stay around assuming it gives mirrors boosts as well, and/or getting the Zong of the Zee,) farm these 'bergs until you have all the supplies and fuel you need. Double bonus as they only have a ram attack so you can pick them off as you zail in and out of your range (and no, don't try to fight up-close, ever.)
Blue Lumps of Scintillack are highly recommended here.

For Secrets, pretty much the same thing for Lorn-Flukes except it's Pages (84 Auto success) over Mirrors and they have an occasional ranged attack that does 2 damage but Bumps Terror by 10, creature stunning weapons help prevent, and they have a bigger range of vision than most guns you have, so zail a little more out of range before re-entering to snipe when resetting their aggro.
Blue Lumps of Scintillack are highly recommended here.
Again, never fight closely for them to ram you, ever.
Also, their Cores are used in numerous quests or could be sold for 500 in London/converted to Judgement's Eggs at the Iron republic when the Parliament of Flies is open (which is the start of the Iron Republic Days cycle.) Besides the numerous Judgement's Eggs quests, Polythreme buys them for 600 per, which is used in both trade routes.




For early-gaming, the catch is not doing the Snakes Mirrorcatch one at a time, but multiple craftings. This means having enough zailors when done. (Get all the officers ASAP then always use London's SAY to hire on a new Zailor, let alone hiring new ones normally. Also, topping out the Antiquarian's favor to max means he/she can give you free zailors randomly.) Fortunately, you can craft the boxes anytime, so simply craft at your most ideal circumstance planning for the loss as happening.

While if this is your very-first game, I won't advise this (and just experience and enjoy the story,) experienced players know why it's best NOT to advance Hunter's keep dining with the Sisters past the first time meeting them while making these boxes. Besides a certain sister's possible Legacy donation (also available instead at Station III not even involving her; if you did you chose wrongly,) there's no reason to rush Hunter's Keep and it costs 1 Foxfire candle more per to craft if you go to an "inactive" keep. So grab your clay men, your zailors ready to replace, your boxes, your crew (and maybe candles) and bulk craft six, having a few thousand Echoes ready (plus the planned fuel and supplies to get the stuff, as well as any trade items you can exchange on the way like wine in lots of 5 to Godfall the first 200 game days) before you start collecting materials.



Finally, Vital information is a nice way to make Echoes, but if you are doing something that requires Supremacy do NOT go too high for London/New Dawn Sequencers. This is especially true if you sell the Memento Mori (to any party including the Sequencers) or use Vital Info to Buy Elements of Dawn.
Giving this info to either the Admiral or Diplomat advances their (or sometimes both in regards to the Diplomat's) Supremacy, and could cause a trigger for either if given too many times once near 7. The Admiral leaves if London loses Supremacy, and the Diplomat leaves (last time I tried) if London wins. Supporting other parties in Carnelian/helping the Khanate with Strategic info lowers these Supremacies (can be done once for the Port Carnelian spy quest,) but may raise competing Supremacy which all London allies leave if the opponents win! (Not to be done unless you're after certain legacy items and best just before retiring/flying.)




If anything is confusing, just let us know and I and/or others will clarify.
edited by the truthseeker on 8/19/2015
0 link
Gerald Edgerton
Gerald Edgerton
Posts: 127

8/20/2015
I have very high London Supremacy (I think the formal level is 14, although I got no rewards past when I first achieved Glorious) and I still commission foreign agents from the Diplomat. I really wanted the Boke of Sharps and can still get it otherwise, but my captain inherited very little and I decided to go with the reliability of intelligence gathering v. risking starving, marooning or mutiny as a career beast hunter, or spending the whole game farming SAY.
0 link

Guest

8/20/2015
Gerald Edgerton wrote:
I have very high London Supremacy (I think the formal level is 14, although I got no rewards past when I first achieved Glorious) and I still commission foreign agents from the Diplomat. I really wanted the Boke of Sharps and can still get it otherwise, but my captain inherited very little and I decided to go with the reliability of intelligence gathering v. risking starving, marooning or mutiny as a career beast hunter, or spending the whole game farming SAY.
If London is Glorious, (short of Aestival Island governing long end-game) the only simple way to get the Boke is to Help the Damn dirty Apes have London fall. That raises the Anarchist quality to 10 and should work.
+1 link
Gerald Edgerton
Gerald Edgerton
Posts: 127

8/21/2015
Let's just say that my current captain will be the first to achieve 200 Iron, and the first to need it. All of her predecessors have died, although one was able to leave her a Codex. No more. She will tame the sun, and bow to no one.
0 link

Guest

8/25/2015
I think I made all the monies.
0 link
ThreeTen22
ThreeTen22
Posts: 8

8/27/2015
Hrm, Im suprised no one has mentioned the Port Report: Fallen London method.
Step 1: Buy a casket of souls,
Step 2: B-Line it to Mount Palmerson
Step 3: Talk with the Devilress
Step 4: Stall outside of port until it a new day happens then talk to the Devilress again
Step 4: Go back to london, hopping from port to port along the way to grab port reports (for fuel etc).
= Tjos will open up the Brass Embassy
Step 5 (optional, but very recommended): Find saints haven, go the cavies route.
= Yeah they are stuck up buttholes, but the free -25 fear and 5 supplies is just too good to pass up.

Step 6: camp out at saints haven until you are full on supplies an fuel
Step 7: Goto Iron Republic
Step 8: camp out there and get your "days in the iron republic" stat to 15 or more.

Now for the fun part

Step 9: Create a port report, it will cost you an iron (if above 25) and give you some fear.
Step 10: Goto london, turn the port report in to the brass embassy (not the admiralty) for a Lump of Blue Scintillack
Step 11: Go Back to Iron Republic And Repeat Steps 9-10.

Now with these lumps, you have two options, 1. give it to the University for 800g or keep it and make over double the profit (which I will explain later on)

My method is to keep as many as I can until I am running low on money, in which case I will sell one or two to the university.

The cool thing about this specific port report is that unlike other port reports, the days stat does not change, so you can constantly go back and get a port report...you don't even need to wait for a new day.

Now this is where it gets better. If you hold onto enough of them (they dont take up cargo, so get as many as you want), stock up on supplies and fuel and head on over to Varchas.

Once inside of varchas, you can trade those blue lumps for a treasure AND 5 Artefacts each.

So, each "port report run" can yield up to a 1300g profit (generous -200g for fuel and supplies and rest if you don't use the cavies) and muuuch faster and safer than trying to do the tomb colonist run. You can easily do this with the starter ship as well.

Ive tried this with the starter ship, and I can upgrade to a fully decked out frigate in around 2 hours with this method.
edited by ThreeTen22 on 8/27/2015
edited by ThreeTen22 on 8/27/2015
edited by ThreeTen22 on 8/27/2015
+1 link
Gerald Edgerton
Gerald Edgerton
Posts: 127

8/27/2015
I may have, ah, allowed my prejudices against the Dawn Machine to influence certain matters in Varchas. That said, my intelligence connoisseur of a zee-captain sells information to all factions, including Hell! I'm quite fond of that trick, although I always sold anything I had, saving only one lump for combat use. That is quite the tip there; her successors will thank you for it!
0 link




Powered by Jitbit Forum 8.0.2.0 © 2006-2013 Jitbit Software