rush99999
Posts: 17
7/10/2015
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I've started saving money to buy some Hesperidean Cider at The Bazaar. I've accumulated over 3000 of the 160000 echoes needed to buy the stuff. But now I've started thinking something: Is it worth all that time and money? If anyone's managed to buy this stuff, could you tell me what you think?
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
11/12/2015
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Blaine Davidson wrote:
Nigel if you don't mind me asking what's taking you so long to grind for the cider?
For most of my time in the Neath, I was doing other stuff. I got all my Newspaper Accomplishments up to 10. I maxed out all my Connections to their descriptor limit. I got my Hedonism up just a little bit.
I didn't start grinding for Cider until February 1891/2013, a year after I got my Overgoat, and I should be done next month. That's less than 3 years. Significantly less when you consider that I've also done plenty of other stories in the last 2 1/2 years. I'd reckon somewhere between 27 & 30 months of legit grinding.
I feel it's vitally important that one not start a years long grind until you've done absolutely everything else you could possibly want to do and to take breaks when you can. I like the Fidgeting Writer because, even if it's not the best EPA, it gives clear and demonstrable goals & milestones to keep you motivated through the grind.
Fallen London is littered with the abandoned accounts of people who promised they would get Cider in just a few short years.
Grinding is boring and repetitive. You will get bored and then you will quit.
And you should not quit. Because Fallen London is amazing.
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The Romantic Egotist: Most Hedonistic Man in All of Fallen London
Are you or someone you know Overgoated? Please, let me know!
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
7/10/2015
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No. No, it's not.
At least not at 3k Echoes; less than 2% of the price.
Heck, you're only about a fourth of the way to an Overgoat.
Cider is a near impossible grind. It takes years. I've been playing for 4 and a half years and I'm still months away from it.
If all you're doing is grinding echoes, you will get bored and frustrated and you will quit.
And you shouldn't quit. Fallen London is an awesome game.
There are still a million other things to do. Find some singular achivement. Get all the newspaper accomplishments. Get a crazy high Connected quality.
Get an Overgoat. Get an Übergoat. Then PM me about it so I can add you to the list.
There is no limit to the number of accomplishments which you can achieve that don't involve endless Ecoe grinding.
You should only really *think* about getting Cider once playing the game has become such a part of your daily routine that you just log-in everyday out of habit.
Which, if you're really into the game, you will do eventually.
At that point, you won't have to ask.
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The Romantic Egotist: Most Hedonistic Man in All of Fallen London
Are you or someone you know Overgoated? Please, let me know!
Cider Club
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Snowskeeper
Posts: 575
7/10/2015
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Of course it's not worth it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't save up for it.
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S.F., a midnight midnighter and invisible eminence. Impossible to locate them, personally, but there are dead drops and agents.
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NiteBrite
Posts: 1019
7/11/2015
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Certainly, when you own the cider, you can sip it to get 10 taste of the garden for one action (and a full wounds cure). Each cp of taste allows you to draw one of the cider dreams cards in your opportunity deck, high frequency. These cards give an extraordinary implication (+2.5) echoes, and 1 cp nightmares (-0.33 cp) so that's like 1.97 epa over 11 actions.
edited by NiteBrite on 7/11/2015
--
I AM currently accepting calling cards.
Stats loss counter: reset, irrigo equivalent: none
[00:34] <@ortab> NiteBrite's laugh is that of a condemned soul gazing into the abyss.
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xKiv
Posts: 846
7/21/2015
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Cecil Palmer wrote:
marcmagus wrote:
I assume already having relevant boost materials to spend (I cost them at their sale value)
Actually, that would slightly detriment your epa, considering most items can be gotten at greater values than 1 echo per action. So, assuming your math is correct, you'd be looking at an epa higher than 1.28.
That's incorrect thinking. Counting your epa as if the only choice is between spending the supplies and selling them at the bazaar will almost always result in epa higher than anything sustainable
Well. Assuming that writing a story takes A actions, E worth of supplies, and has rewards worth R:
Calculating as if requiring supplies is equivalent to decreased reward: 1.28=(R-E)/A
Calculating with farming supplies at rate F (worth/action, so farming them takes E/F actions): epa=R/(A+E/F)
when is epa>1.28
epa=R/(A+E/F)>1.28=(R-E)/A
// multiply by A and A+E/F, both of which are positive
R*A > (R-E)*(A+E/F) // expand
R*A > R*A + RE/F-EE/F // rearrange additions and subtractions
EE/F > RE/F // divide by E/F, which is positive
E > R
so increasing epa is possible only if the original epa was negative.
Also, when considering the worth of spending supplies that I already have, a more balanced comparison is between "spend the supplies and A actions the get R reward" and "sell the supplies for E 'reward' and spend A actions doing my best repeatable grind at rate G".
Compare R and E+AG.
I won't spend the time to compare these now, but from what I remember, E was always so high that you should always just sell your supplies and go somewhere else.
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https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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NiteBrite
Posts: 1019
7/11/2015
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I liked having it for the social action. I must have personally greeted a few hundred new players with it. I've been on hiatus with that since selling the cider while deciding what a good new player greeting social action should be. I'm leaning towards sparing bouts. But it might send the wrong message to say "welcome to fallen London delicious friend. Please accept this complimentary punch in the face, don't worry it will make you stronger ;-)"
But yeah, if you are social and love to chat with folks it makes for one heck of an ice breaker haha.
Owning it makes gives you access to a good money grind and near immunity to several menace types due to menace cross conversion actions. But if you have a cider, it's not like you -need- a new good money grind haha. Well not unless you want a heptagoat too. On that sense, if you wanted both it'd be good to get the cider first as it would make goat grinding marginally faster.
--
I AM currently accepting calling cards.
Stats loss counter: reset, irrigo equivalent: none
[00:34] <@ortab> NiteBrite's laugh is that of a condemned soul gazing into the abyss.
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dov
Posts: 2580
7/11/2015
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NiteBrite wrote:
Owning it makes gives you access to a good money grind and near immunity to several menace types due to menace cross conversion actions. Do you mind sharing how this money grind works?
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edited by dov on 7/11/2015
--
 Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
(Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
11/13/2015
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Blaine Davidson wrote:
Nigel Overstreet wrote:
Grinding is boring and repetitive.
Is it really all that bad? I find it more akin to a minigame of resource management; constantly ensuring that I have enough Brilliant Souls and Correspondence Plaques to complete another round of the Fidgeting Writer is not easy. I've found that worrying if you have enough Memories of a Distant Shore for conversion substantially helps with my concerns of boredom.
Plus, with the monthly Exceptional Stories and the seasonal events to function as a break it makes me wonder if the rates of burnout are decreasing.
Well, yeah, but that requires you actually take them. Grinding is more fun when you have nothing better to do, and still want to be here. Doing nothing but grinding would steal your soul long before the hesperian cider was viable. You'd either give up the grind or give up on the game first. That's why i only have 7, and not more, tears for my personal hoard.
edited by Grenem on 11/13/2015
--
Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Kade Carrion (an_ocelot)
Posts: 1372
11/13/2015
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Of course no-one should grind if they don't want to!
Because I play FL in the margins, sometimes I enjoy grinding precisely because it's mindless: I can fire off whatever actions accrued while I was asleep while eating breakfast and telling the kids to eat theirs, without worrying that I'm missing savory prose. And there are enough different grinds that it doesn't feel too monotonous to me (I mostly did War of Assassins and Affair of the Box, sometimes Heists if I had a big bank of actions and little time, but I also felt free to try my luck at Expeditions and went on a giant Iron Republic loop because it amused me greatly). I admit I got anxious when I realized I was starting to get close, but I still took out time to play new content and do seasonal events. It doesn't have to be an all-consuming prospect (indeed, it took me a little over five years, and that's with an Ubergoat along the way).
--
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Possibly-Useful Things: Spreadsheets and hints and link collections, oh my.
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Guest
11/13/2015
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Long story short (three pages, too late it seems,) is: don't grind for the cider until you've achieved everything else in game (short of the Heptagoat) you can get, Ubergoat included, as it will likely take years.
(If one were to do the Soul Trade and find a profitable option card for over three hundred echoes, regain something back, then repeat, one might shave some time off, but it likely still would take years without some Kickstarter backer or massively high Fate buy real money option in the future.)
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Blaine Davidson
Posts: 388
11/15/2015
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Rinsik wrote:
Is there some sort of "standardized" way of grinding FW?
There should be plenty of guides on how to go about doing the Fidgeting Writer. But if you like I can go into detail about my method including replenishment.
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Blaine Davidson, a reserved and sensible woman with a fondness of collecting rarities.
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Erika
Posts: 528
7/22/2015
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xKiv wrote:
That's incorrect thinking. Counting your epa as if the only choice is between spending the supplies and selling them at the bazaar will almost always result in epa higher than anything sustainable
Well. Assuming that writing a story takes A actions, E worth of supplies, and has rewards worth R:
Calculating as if requiring supplies is equivalent to decreased reward: 1.28=(R-E)/A
Calculating with farming supplies at rate F (worth/action, so farming them takes E/F actions): epa=R/(A+E/F)
when is epa>1.28
epa=R/(A+E/F)>1.28=(R-E)/A
// multiply by A and A+E/F, both of which are positive
R*A > (R-E)*(A+E/F) // expand
R*A > R*A + RE/F-EE/F // rearrange additions and subtractions
EE/F > RE/F // divide by E/F, which is positive
E > R
so increasing epa is possible only if the original epa was negative.
Also, when considering the worth of spending supplies that I already have, a more balanced comparison is between "spend the supplies and A actions the get R reward" and "sell the supplies for E 'reward' and spend A actions doing my best repeatable grind at rate G".
Compare R and E+AG.
I won't spend the time to compare these now, but from what I remember, E was always so high that you should always just sell your supplies and go somewhere else.
I. Uh. Couldn't follow most of that. I do now see that I was wrong, and that epa would only be increase if you were gaining the source items at a higher epa. I'm not sure why that didn't occur to me in the first place. Count me a little less ignorant I guess?
--
 Where the sun is hot, the moon is beautiful, and mysterious lights pass overhead while we all pretend to sleep.
Going on a fate expedition? I'm collecting data! Help me?
"Bottles of Oblivion" drunk in the name of content: 57
Catboxes (send more!) opened in the name of science: 1093
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xKiv
Posts: 846
7/30/2015
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genesis wrote:
xKiv wrote:
R*A > (R-E)*(A+E/F) // expand
R*A > R*A + RE/F-EE/F // rearrange additions and subtractions
I think you are missing the "-E*A" term here. It doesn't affect your ultimate point but if less mathematically inclined people were trying to follow they might miss an implied step where that term disappears.
Oh, huh.
R*A > R*A + RE/F-EE/F -AE // rearrange additions and subtractions
EE/F > RE/F -AE // *F/(AE)
E/A > R/A - F
F > (R-E)/A
...
so it changes my conclusion from "increasing epa this way is possible only when the original epa was negative" to "... only when the original epa was lower than the epa of acquiring the necessary supplies". In which case it's even more profitable to just keep farming the supplies instead.
--
https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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Erika
Posts: 528
7/31/2015
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xKiv wrote:
so it changes my conclusion from "increasing epa this way is possible only when the original epa was negative" to "... only when the original epa was lower than the epa of acquiring the necessary supplies". In which case it's even more profitable to just keep farming the supplies instead.
yay! That's what I said! I'm slightly more intelligent than I thought!
--
Where the sun is hot, the moon is beautiful, and mysterious lights pass overhead while we all pretend to sleep.
Going on a fate expedition? I'm collecting data! Help me?
"Bottles of Oblivion" drunk in the name of content: 57
Catboxes (send more!) opened in the name of science: 1093
Fancy a friend?
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Kade Carrion (an_ocelot)
Posts: 1372
11/11/2015
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Jeremy Avalon wrote:
On the other hand, if you Gawp, it takes 5 actions on average to reduce 10 CP of Nightmares, and you get 0.95 EPA at the same time, so you get a total of 10 * 2.5 + 5 * 0.95 = 29.75 Echoes per 16 actions, or ~1.86 EPA. And then all the Wounds disappear from using the Cider again.
Continuing discussion from here: yes, I tend to Gawp when my Nightmares get high enough from the Cider cards to clear out non-discardable menace cards, but I almost never go all the way down to zero by Gawping, just down enough to clear my hand. Instead I go to the Nadir or I use one of the Doctor Schlomo cards (-3 CP Nightmares + 2.50E on rare success or -6 CP Nightmares).
And because I am a GIANT DORK, I just did the math on the Nadir and came out to 5.92 EPA (on average, of course! And you can tweak that in your favor by choosing when to bail)--here's the spreadsheet--note that this is personal to me and your unlock qualities may vary, but I hope it gives people a starting point.
edited by an_ocelot on 11/12/2015
--
Social Actions: send them to Kade Carrion (she/her; no Tournament of Lilies, please). an_ocelot has gone NORTH and cannot benefit from social actions!
Possibly-Useful Things: Spreadsheets and hints and link collections, oh my.
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Mr. Mercutio
Posts: 133
11/11/2015
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Thanks for sharing the spreadsheet, ocelot. Some good math in there. 
--
Mr. Mercutio
Immortal. Rich. Only moderately insane.
 Want a taste of immortality? Reach out to me in-game to ask for a sip of Hesperidean Cider. Please follow Ocelot's guide to asking here.
New to our dark city? Send me a message in-game and I will respond when I can with a welcome gift!
I welcome most social actions, so feel free to send them to me. Just please don't ask me to Loiter Suspiciously or to help with the Affluent Photographer. I have disavowed all knowledge of her.
 Galatea LaChance
She has gone North, and none shall know what she found there.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
11/12/2015
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I assume Kaigen means on average it's profitable even without guaranteed success on individual attempts, somewhat like the Fidgeting Writer.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Ben
Posts: 657
7/12/2015
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Course, it's still a crazy amount of actions to earn back the cost of the cider...
nothing personal Nite.
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The wind has no destination.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/IcountFrom0
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Erika
Posts: 528
7/18/2015
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If anyone's curious about the epa of random things (including grinds!) here's a good starting point.
It doesn't have the epa of any of the short stories, perhaps someone could add them!
--
Where the sun is hot, the moon is beautiful, and mysterious lights pass overhead while we all pretend to sleep.
Going on a fate expedition? I'm collecting data! Help me?
"Bottles of Oblivion" drunk in the name of content: 57
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marcmagus
Posts: 168
7/20/2015
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mmk wrote:
does anybody use writing short stories for echo grind? Is it worthwhile taking into account both the epa and the price of potential boosting materials?
No longer, but I did back when I was a Journalist and a bit after becoming an Author. I calculated mean epa varying from 0.85 (stopping at 50 potential) up to 1.28 (stopping at 100 potential). I didn't do the math beyond that because I was interested in other activities, I assume succeeding at all checks, I assume already having relevant boost materials to spend (I cost them at their sale value), and remember this is the mean from a single luck check encompassing a lot of actions, so until you've been grinding through a lot of actions you will probably have a pretty high variance.
Should give you a sense of whether you're still early enough in the game for it to be worthwhile, though. Revisiting this, 1.28 isn't too bad; maybe I'll see what the numbers look like for potentially celebrated and potentially classic works and do a full write-up sometime.
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marcmagus, a scholar of the Correspondence of some minor note and bold explorer of the new Unterzee.
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
7/10/2015
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It also has, on a few occasions, been offered up for a rather large real world money price. Kickstarters, charity events, etc.
That's how I plan to get mine, the next time it's an option.
You could also "purchase" it via the entrance to the cave of the nadir, 50 fate and one action for ~313 echos, at 18 cents per fate, means it would cost about 4 thousand dollars. During the holidays there may be even more efficient methods I'm not yet aware of (I've only been online for the Feast of the Exceptional Rose)
I would guess it's probably not worth that much to you, unless you've really got a lot of money to burn...
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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BlakeTheDrake
Posts: 237
7/10/2015
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Well, having it essentially makes you immortal - you can take a mouthful whenever you like to completely clear your wounds. It also, I hear, grants you some... interesting dreams.
Whether it's WORTH it is another question entirely. The Hesperidean Cider, much like the Übergoat (to say nothing of the Heptagoat) is chiefly a status-symbol, proof of your dedication to grinding and the sheer time you've spent in the game.
EDIT: Oh, and it's worth noting that you can send sips of cider to friends, once you've got it. It doesn't do much for their wounds, inherently, but it lets them access those aforementioned dreams... which DO help with wounds quite a bit, in addition to being quite interesting. So having a Cider to share is liable to make you... popular. For whatever that's worth... 
edited by BlakeTheDrake on 7/10/2015
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One of these days, I will remember to record interesting things in my journal...
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/BlakeTheDrake
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Deanscig
Posts: 72
7/10/2015
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This may be slightly off topic but how many uses does the cider have? Does it eventually run out of uses or are you able to use it as much as you want?
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
7/10/2015
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Pretty sure it's infinite use.
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Jenson Shepherd
Posts: 44
7/11/2015
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I'd mostly echo Mr Overstreet's comments with respect to the effort you need to put into getting the Cider. The time isn't really worth it unless you really really really want to be immortal.
Having said that I will say that it's a very satisfying feeling to just walk off the slow boat in one action after getting blown up by the truthbreaker turbine or burning yourself inside out studying the Correspondence.
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Proud member of Club Hesperidean
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