Hannah Flynn
Administrator
Posts: 491
6/29/2015
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From tomorrow, the way Quality Requirements are phrased will be different in Fallen London [edit: they're now live!].
Quality requirements are descriptions like these:
"You need Fascinating... no more than 0 (you have 1)"
"Unlocked with 30 x Whispered Secret - you have 190"
We have worked to put these into plain English, ultimately making them easier for new players to grasp.
Please let us know what you think!
edited by h4nchan on 6/30/2015
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Wields the news canon, aboard the hype train.
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Toper
Posts: 24
6/30/2015
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I think the hovertext "You unlocked this with Nightmares 5 (you needed 4)" is kind of backwards. The whole point of having it, I think, is to display unlock requirements and/or costs; they shouldn't go in parentheses.
For Qualities, I'd prefer "This requires Nightmares 4 or more (you have 5)". This also shortens the prefix to every hovertext, which even for newbies is just clutter; and if "plain English" is the goal, it's good to get rid of the lock/unlock metaphor.
For stat/item requirements, probably "This requires Watchful 70 (you have 83)" or "This requires 200 Rats on Strings (you have 3969)". I think the "or more" is implicit for item counts and stat requirements.
edited by Toper on 6/30/2015
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Leucosia Lacrimosa
Posts: 3
6/30/2015
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The bolded text on, well, everything is a bit overwhelming, especially in the case of items with long descriptions like the Violet Amber.
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ashdenej
Posts: 66
6/30/2015
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The fact that the first-sentence description of Opportunity Cards is now bolded on hovering - much like the title - means that it's... harder to distinguish what's important, I suppose? If the requirement, title and description are all bolded, there's no variation - they might as well all be unbolded.
Perhaps the unlocked quality colours could be changed from red to - blue? Green? Red implies that you're missing a requirement.
It's also a little odd that one can be wearing a bundle of clothing once it's equipped, I think.
edited by ashdenej on 6/30/2015
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/29/2015
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I'm looking forward to seeing this implemented! Sometimes phrasing can be a little awkward. I remember one time echoing a quality long ago when I first started playing because I thought it was amusing: "A twist in my tale! I am now Inconvenienced by your Aunt."
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Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
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genesis
Posts: 924
6/30/2015
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Is it possible to make some comprehension changes to Airs requirements?
Currently it says: "Unlocked when you have The Airs of London". But obviously you always "have" the Airs of London. It should either say what values of the Airs of London you need or (if you really want it to be mysterious or whatnot) something like "Unlocked when you have certain The Airs of London" or "Unlocked when The Airs of London are suitable" or something like that...
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin
Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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MadmanAtW
Posts: 231
7/1/2015
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Echoing a lot of other comments here: I would very much like to see the 'flavor' text on mouseovers be unbolded, and more than anything the 'green' level of challenge restored- I have way too much automatic response to seeing white and knowing it's a 100% success to easily adjust now. And while I have some suspicions that some of these changes were made with the new mobile app in mind, at the moment this hurts me the most when I'm on my phone/tablet and mousing over things is harder to do.
Also would prefer to see the items be ordered by 'tier' as they used to be- it seems like some categories still are but some, like Rags, very much aren't.
I do also agree that to me, "Unlocked with 4 (you have 5)" was a lot clearer than the new "Unlocked with 5 (you needed 4)".
I do like the red coloring of the quality you need, though. It's helpful to have that jump out.
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Accepting any social actions except the Affluent Photographer. Would appreciate warning of dupings/betrayals/rats.
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hwoosh
Posts: 104
7/1/2015
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MadmanAtW wrote:
and more than anything the 'green' level of challenge restored- I have way too much automatic response to seeing white and knowing it's a 100% success to easily adjust now.
Yes, please please revert this. It's baffling to me that you guys would have made this change.
(Especially baffling because this is already something you've "fixed". I remember when all "straightforward" challenges were green. That was such a welcome change, and now it is gone  )
edited by hwoosh on 7/3/2015
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Persona: hwoosh
R Fellow Oswho. Don't ask what the "R." stands for. The poor fellow is sensitive about it. And violent.
Most social requests gladly and promptly answered.
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marcmagus
Posts: 168
7/1/2015
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Marianne Anders wrote:
I don't know how difficult it would be to make it change from "1 Nodule of Deep Amber" to "150 Nodules of Deep Amber".
It's easy but very tedious to set up if you don't try to be clever about it and just store both a singular and plural name for everything in your database.
It's extremely difficult and error-prone if you try to be clever and do it in code instead.
I may or may not have learned this lesson the hard way.
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marcmagus, a scholar of the Correspondence of some minor note and bold explorer of the new Unterzee.
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A B Nile
Posts: 414
7/2/2015
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I'm not saying anything new here, but just in the interests of adding a +1:
- I don't like the awkward unlocked with / required phrasing
- I don't like long item descriptions and item title and stats all being in bold
- I don't like the fact that 90%+ chance of success if the same colour as 100% chance
- I don't like items being out of order in their categories
- I am ambivalent to the new descriptions of items ("nodule" etc.). Some of this works nicely, some doesn't.
To be perfectly honest, this exercise feels to me like fixing a lot of things that were not broken in the first place. I don't think that I and others that are not keen on the change are simply reacting to something familiar changing (nobody is being accused of this as far as I can see, just an observation) - it really does feel like it has made things more confusing and less visually attractive.
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My alt: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate
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Item conversion table - finally complete with all rare successes!
Bloody, bold and resolute
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Isaiah Hazardway
Posts: 39
6/30/2015
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Related to this, the new hover text is really ugly. Any chance it might be reverted?
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Isaiah~Hazardway
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Marianne Anders
Posts: 127
6/30/2015
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...I feel like making items distinguishable from each other at a quick scan is more important than making items in a category line up with each other. Like, I feel like the shoes and gloves could blend in too easily with each other on the sell page. also i feel like, say, "150 Nodule of Deep Amber" makes less sense than "150 Deep Amber" - that's a plural issue, mostly. I don't know how difficult it would be to make it change from "1 Nodule of Deep Amber" to "150 Nodules of Deep Amber". or if there would ever be a situation where you would have only one nodule, barring a player selling all of their amber except one.
Which is sort of also an issue with, say, "200 Whispered Secret" - but it's not something I ever really examined before. mostly because I wasn't paying attention, I figure. possibly the reason why I'm focusing on Nodule here is because it's such a peculiar word.
...it's stuff I can adjust to, it just feels really weird right now.
Also I think that if possible the titles of things should not be made longer, but that might be more of a personal tic, idk.
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Not all who wander are lost. Sometimes, they are very lost.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Marianne~Anders
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Anarhichas
Posts: 3
6/30/2015
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Marianne Anders wrote:
Also I think that if possible the titles of things should not be made longer, but that might be more of a personal tic, idk.
This, exactly. The extra 'lump of' or 'scrap of' is nice in theory, but just makes it harder to quickly find and distinguish everything.
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Docteur
Posts: 101
6/30/2015
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I dislike this new change! It's even more confusing in my opinion. Especially when items are involved.
EDIT : Colours, italic and hints help a lot! I now think it's great.
edited by Docteur on 6/30/2015
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The Viric Voice! A beautiful instrument.
Docteur - And so it ends.
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Jeremy Avalon
Posts: 345
6/30/2015
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The latest update to the item rewordings seems to have knocked the nice ordering-by-value of the inventory out of whack -- I have Collated Research coming before Foxfire Candle Stubs, Puzzle-Damask before Silk Scraps, and Identities Uncovered before Proscribed Material.
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How we must glow; yes, I bet we look like snow.
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dov
Posts: 2580
6/30/2015
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Toper wrote:
I think the hovertext "You unlocked this with Nightmares 5 (you needed 4)" is kind of backwards. The whole point of having it, I think, is to display unlock requirements and/or costs; they shouldn't go in parentheses.
For Qualities, I'd prefer "This requires Nightmares 4 or more (you have 5)". This also shortens the prefix to every hovertext, which even for newbies is just clutter; and if "plain English" is the goal, it's good to get rid of the lock/unlock metaphor.
For stat/item requirements, probably "This requires Watchful 70 (you have 83)" or "This requires 200 Rats on Strings (you have 3969)". I think the "or more" is implicit for item counts and stat requirements.
I agree with all of these points.
--
 Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
(Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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ShinWalks
Posts: 14
6/30/2015
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The new phrasing seems much less clear than the old to me...
Toper wrote:
I think the hovertext "You unlocked this with Nightmares 5 (you needed 4)" is kind of backwards. The whole point of having it, I think, is to display unlock requirements and/or costs; they shouldn't go in parentheses.
For Qualities, I'd prefer "This requires Nightmares 4 or more (you have 5)". This also shortens the prefix to every hovertext, which even for newbies is just clutter; and if "plain English" is the goal, it's good to get rid of the lock/unlock metaphor.
For stat/item requirements, probably "This requires Watchful 70 (you have 83)" or "This requires 200 Rats on Strings (you have 3969)". I think the "or more" is implicit for item counts and stat requirements.
edited by Toper on 6/30/2015
I agree completely, the most important fact is the requirement (which is particular to the action), not the amount I have (which I could already know or find out lots of other ways). "Requires" is far more clear and natural than "is unlocked by."
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Helena Korinek, the Bohemian Metatheologian
Harold Hill, the Musical Huckster
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/30/2015
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I'm looking forward to seeing the formatting return a bit more to normal. It's odd hovering over a card and having everything be in bold. The actual rephrasing has some quirks to work out, but others have suggested good ways to fix that.
Edit: Actually, I do have a bit of feedback. I'm currently seeing the Turncoat icon on the Affair of the Box, saying:
You unlocked this by not having A Turncoat (you needed 3 at most)
That bit in the parentheses is awkward. Is there a way to change the phrasing specifically for options that are locked by a certain quality? I suspect switching what goes in the parentheses might help, since it would say something more like, "This requires no more than 3 Turncoat (you have 0)" which is far more clear.
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edited by Sara Hysaro on 6/30/2015
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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Zantumall
Posts: 109
6/30/2015
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Leucosia Lacrimosa wrote:
The bolded text on, well, everything is a bit overwhelming, especially in the case of items with long descriptions like the Violet Amber.
I'm in agreement here. My personal preference would be to have the item name and stat effects in bold and the description and "where to find" info in standard text. It would also be nice if the "flavor text" on opp cards were un-bolded, leaving the unlock requirements and title in bold. That seems like it would be the most easily readable.
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My profile.
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Andrew Astherson
Posts: 118
6/30/2015
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Leucosia Lacrimosa wrote:
The bolded text on, well, everything is a bit overwhelming, especially in the case of items with long descriptions like the Violet Amber.
Second to that: the headlines and descriptions should be in different styles.
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> My lads appearances ; Astherson's short backstory
> Seeking for RP partner(s), are you ? This thread might be the right place.
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
6/30/2015
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This happened before the changes, and I'm not sure where I would test it again, since I saw it on a one-time storylet. But it seems like a good thing to report while quality req.'s are in Failbetter's focus.
The storylet was Ambition: Nemesis: Unmasking Your Nemesis: Identify a second suspect. There's a long list of options with no requirements (you answer to solve a riddle). When I ran out of actions, a hidden requirement appeared next to one option ("You need no more than Ambition: Nemesis: no more than X.") Sure enough, this was the correct answer to the riddle.
In summary, hidden requirements become visible if you have no actions (at least in this storylet). It may not matter much for most storylets, but it did spoil the fun on this one.
edited by TheThirdPolice on 6/30/2015
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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The Dark Gentleman
Posts: 188
6/30/2015
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I appreciate the use of bold, italic, and coloured text in the descriptions. However, I am saddened that my Surprise Packages (previously A Surprise Package) are now lost in the sea of my Curiosities instead of being right near the top where I'd notice it first thing. I suppose that makes it MORE surprising when I do finally see it?
Anyways, always good to see some mechanical work being done. I realize its still teething and might require some tinkering yet, and will happily wait for continued improvements.
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"THE HOURS FEAR THE NAMES.
THE NAMES FEAR THE LONG.
THE LONG FEAR THE KNOW.
ALL FEAR THE HOURS."
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Hannah Flynn
Administrator
Posts: 491
6/30/2015
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The Dark Gentleman wrote:
Anyways, always good to see some mechanical work being done. I realize its still teething and might require some tinkering yet, and will happily wait for continued improvements.
Thanks!
We are gathering all feedback from the thread and any tickets to support@failbettergames.com so we can tweak and refine things; thank you for (all of) your feedback!
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Wields the news canon, aboard the hype train.
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genesis
Posts: 924
6/30/2015
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Oh. Also. Could we please please also have info on when options become *Locked*. Especially pre-PoSI lots of options are only temporarily available until you reach a certain threshold. It would be a massive help if we could know when that's going to happen and not miss valuable content accidentally
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin
Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
6/30/2015
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------
The item unlocks are quite confusing...
edited by Estelle Knoht on 6/30/2015
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
6/29/2015
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Ah. Noodle of Deep Amber.
Module, I mean. Er, no, Nodule of Deep Amber.
Seems like some goods have measure words now. Not sure what to think of it for the time being.
Here's what I see, so far for inventory items (only changed items are listed):
Academic:
Flask of Abominable Salt
Cartography:
Shard of Glim
Contraband:
Coins of Surface Currency (don't like this one too much, given that different currencies have different value, unless their value down here is like stamp collection?)
Influence:
Scrap of Intriguing Gossip
Luminosity:
Lump of Lamplighter Earwax
Rubbery:
Nodules of Deep / Trembling / Fecund Amber
(Pulsating Amber remains the same)
Rumour:
Scrap of Incendiary Gossip
Wine:
Bottle of Greyfields / Morelways / Absinthe / Broken Giant / Airag / Masters' Blood
Vial of Tears of the Bazaar
Liking the measure word for Wines.
Shoes and Goggles:
Seems like most shoes and goggles have "pairs of" too.
Personally speaking, the icon is quite enough by itself to tell you it is a pair of shoes.
Not to mention most people assume you get pairs of shoes by default, so it seems kinda unneeded if you ask me.
Also, you missed "Mirror-Polished Shoes", although its icon shows a pair of shoes clearly instead of three shoes.
edited by Estelle Knoht on 6/29/2015
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
6/30/2015
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My (single) Parabola-Linen Scrap shows up before my 9 x Surface-Silk Scraps, instead of at the end where it was before.
I second the suggestion of switching Quality Req order. (In shorthand: ) "This requires Nightmares 4 or more (you have 5)" is better than "You have Nightmares 5 (you needed 4)."
I don't particularly mind bolded descriptions, but the "Create this using" and "Click this item to" should be differentiated from the description.
EDIT: Mousing over the Swap Incendiary Gossip card shows a messy "Unlocked when a (POSI) is: (all six possibilities without spaces between them)" It also doesn't say "(you have this)", which the next requirement on the same mouse-over does (A Member in Good Standing).
edited by TheThirdPolice on 7/1/2015
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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ErisExtreme
Posts: 1
7/3/2015
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I strongly dislike the lengthening of item names (Shard of glim, instead of just glim? I don't like how this works with the barter currencies... it's like saying "piece of Euro" instead of just Euro). It clutters the bazaar interface a bit.
I also find the italics for stat requirements hard to read, and I wish there was a toggle to disable italics.
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Theus
Posts: 311
7/1/2015
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marcmagus wrote:
It's easy but very tedious to set up if you don't try to be clever about it and just store both a singular and plural name for everything in your database.
It's extremely difficult and error-prone if you try to be clever and do it in code instead.
I may or may not have learned this lesson the hard way.
This rings strongly of truth. You change the code once to recognize plurality and ifexists use the pluralname, and then extend the table an extra column (which may be nontrivial) defaulting to null. You can then update values at your leisure. In reality, the value to effort of this feature is low because of the long tail of creative time required to backfill existant items.
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