Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
1/27/2012
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Dear and most delicious Failbetter team,
you must be aware that after your most recent blog post we'll all be wanting a Radical Okapi now? You can only mention something so often before everybody wants it... ;-)
And I'm sure it would get along just brilliantly with Henry, my Corresponding Ocelot. The debates these two could have!
Also I think that the blog post's title, The Okapi Conundrum, would be a marvellous band name...
edited by Rupho Schartenhauer on 3/24/2015
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Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it.
Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely.
Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated.
Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
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Dave
Posts: 215
1/27/2012
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I too would welcome such an unorthodox giraffid (is there any other type?)
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The Dave, a terrifying, lethal, inescapable and sagacious gentleman
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Freemage
Posts: 13
1/27/2012
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That post is extremely informative, as well. In particular, I must admit I like the notion of multi-action clicks. I understand the need for pacing, but grinding a quality up to five, taking the exact same action every time, gets to feel a bit silly. I can't count the number of badges I've pulled from burning tenement buildings at this point--and for that matter, it's a wonder there's any tenements themselves left!
And yes, I would like a Radical Okapi. Because my not all of my neighbors havel been driven away by my 20-creature menagerie.
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Jack Vaux-Harrowden
Posts: 245
1/27/2012
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As a sometimes-agitator and firebrand (at least for two of my characters), I demand that the Radical Okapi be a real thing.
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Patrick Reding
Posts: 440
1/27/2012
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I think it all comes down to whether it's "radical" because it holds extreme political views, is a massive departure from generally accepted okapidom, or is mentally trapped in the 1980s.
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http://echobazaar.failbettergames.com/Profile/Yana
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/27/2012
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Were London still on the surface, a Radical in C19 Britain would no longer be particularly extreme - a disreputable republican, to be sure, but a supporter of the emerging liberal welfare state, and not much more opposed to the present political order than its cousin, the Chartist Giraffe.
In the Neath, the common man has little say, and the Radical Okapi must redo the work of its grandfathers.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Urthdigger
Posts: 939
1/27/2012
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I wonder, what other things besides Darkdrop Coffee now cost 0 actions? I think one thing that ought to cost 0 actions is changing lodgings... or does that actually give items when you do it?
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Looking for second chances to maximize your loot output from those troublesome storylets? Check out our handy gang of volunteers in this thread, or even volunteer yourself!
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Abraham Bounty
Posts: 251
1/27/2012
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Urthdigger wrote:
I wonder, what other things besides Darkdrop Coffee now cost 0 actions? I think one thing that ought to cost 0 actions is changing lodgings... or does that actually give items when you do it?
It did not, however the last time I tried was months ago (having learned my lesson to not waste actions clicking on keys).
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News in the Neath: Noted citizen of Fallen London, Abraham Bounty, has acquired six hundred and sixty six souls. Additionally rumour has it that the lion's share of those souls was from a theft of The Brass Embasy itself. We are quite certain that this portents nothing ominous for him. Well, nothing unusually ominous anyway.
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
1/27/2012
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> band name
Actually, it's one of Robert Ludlum's less-known thrillers.
> I understand the need for pacing, but grinding a quality up to five, taking the exact same action every time, gets to feel a bit silly.
We do understand that. There's a balance to strike here. If we never repeat content, we don't get best use of it (since people forget content until they re-read it, or don't notice references or grace notes the first time). On the other hand if you see the same text fifty times in a row, after the third time the words are just static. Mixing it up with other content helps but can be mechanical or difficult to arrange reliably. Deliberately writing more generic, less specific content helps but can lessen the first-time impact of the content. Addressing this is the single biggest goal of the remixing of narrative patterns we're doing.
>I think one thing that ought to cost 0 actions is changing lodgings..
It doesn't, and probably won't. We actually discussed this a while back, but decided
(1) there's some ludic consonance from moving lodgings being a faff, because you need to bring your toothbrush, okapi, recent mail, etc;
(2) with coming updates changing your current lodgings may have a more significant effect, at which point spending an action is a resource allocation decision.
So why not make it free until (2) kicks in? Because people who missed the memo will be powerfully unhappy when we go from 0 to 1 again - losing something that you've been accustomed to annoys you more than gaining something unexpected makes you happy.
In the early days of Echo Bazaar, changing areas cost an action - we removed this when reshuffling the map, and although we'd like to add it back to make moving round London a less weightless-feeling experience, we know people will feel cheated, and the small gain in ludic consonance isn't worth the upset. When and if we add more location-dependent gameplay, we might decide there's enough long-term gameplay benefit from giving movement a cost again, but we'd rather avoid the pain in the meantime. Discontent from the player base doesn't always prevent us doing things if we see a long-term good, but it is always something we take into consideration.
But if you do think of actions or categories of actions that you think should be zero-cost, let us know. There are probably things in odd corners that we haven't considered.
edited by Alexis Kennedy on 1/27/2012
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Little The
Posts: 700
1/27/2012
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Alexis Kennedy wrote:
But if you do think of actions or categories of actions that you think should be zero-cost, let us know.
Item creation storylets, definitely. This has been discussed in the other threads, I believe: since the net worth of the actions is nothing, it feels very wasteful and, as mentioned in another thread, it actually makes the new "backdoor" methods of purchasing lodgings more expensive than the regular version.
There is the issue of the rare successes to take into consideration...perhaps just decrease their probability or reduce the monetary reward? Randomness is hard to abuse anyway.
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A gentleman of numerous descriptors that change far too often. Second chance and menace reduction invites are welcome.
My journey to Seek the Name is recorded for posterity here. I asked "Who is Salt?"
I am a member of the Temple Club. If you would like an invitation, feel free to request one!
Fallen London is a game of choices. When you make an important one, you can record your rationale here.
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Jack Vaux-Harrowden
Posts: 245
1/27/2012
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Little The wrote:
Alexis Kennedy wrote:
But if you do think of actions or categories of actions that you think should be zero-cost, let us know.
Item creation storylets, definitely. This has been discussed in the other threads, I believe: since the net worth of the actions is nothing, it feels very wasteful and, as mentioned in another thread, it actually makes the new "backdoor" methods of purchasing lodgings more expensive than the regular version.
There is the issue of the rare successes to take into consideration...perhaps just decrease their probability or reduce the monetary reward? Randomness is hard to abuse anyway.
I wouldn't worry about the issue of rare successes unless we get a breakdown option. If I have 1,000 Lamplighter Beeswax that I want to turn into Phosphorescent Scarabs because I want Proscribed Texts from the extra bonus, then great, but unless I can turn the Scarabs back into Beeswax I'd need to buy or acquire more Beeswax to keep the process up. So think of it less as a free money loop and more as investment of a sort--a business venture.
Now, if there is an eventual breakdown option, then you'd have an action-free infinite money loop. Not a terribly lucrative one, but if you can get ~40 pence per couple of clicks regardless of actions spent you could amass quite a fortune if you were obsessed enough.
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
1/27/2012
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>since the net worth of the actions is nothing
I've gone into (insane amounts of) detail about this in the other thread, but this is emphatically not the case, since you always have a >50% chance of getting other stuff besides the higher-level item, and a small chance of getting an additional big win.
>purchasing lodgings more expensive than the regular version.
It does if you choose the least optimal possible way of getting to that branch, and never obtain any higher-level items directly. Which is the point. :-)
>perhaps just decrease their probability or reduce the monetary reward?
The point is to provide an occasional big win; if it becomes a very rare trivial win, then all we've done is remove a bit of variety.
>Now, if there is an eventual breakdown option then you'd have an action-free infinite money loop.
Quite. Or if you found another zero-action option elsewhere in the game and could rubber-band between the two, or if you could use the proceeds to buy basic goods from the Bazaar in sufficient quantities to convert them up, &c. &c. It's a ticking exploit bomb.
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Urthdigger
Posts: 939
1/27/2012
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Hmm, what about using items such as laudanum and tinctures and such? There is a benefit to using them, yes, but also a cost.
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Looking for second chances to maximize your loot output from those troublesome storylets? Check out our handy gang of volunteers in this thread, or even volunteer yourself!
@Urthdigger on twitter
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Felicity Chase
Posts: 62
1/27/2012
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Alexis Kennedy wrote:
In the early days of Echo Bazaar, changing areas cost an action - we removed this when reshuffling the map, and although we'd like to add it back to make moving round London a less weightless-feeling experience, we know people will feel cheated, and the small gain in ludic consonance isn't worth the upset. When and if we add more location-dependent gameplay, we might decide there's enough long-term gameplay benefit from giving movement a cost again, but we'd rather avoid the pain in the meantime. Discontent from the player base doesn't always prevent us doing things if we see a long-term good, but it is always something we take into consideration.
Now this is something that I find interesting. I do remember finding travel to be surprisingly "weightless", as you've so accurately described, given that Fallen London is said to be like a labyrinth: "The streets of London were bent into a labyrinth with the Bazaar at the labyrinth's heart. Finding your way around can be troublesome. Pre-Bazaar maps can be surprisingly useful, but they're contraband. Don't be caught with one." But I'm sure I'm in a vast minority when I say I wouldn't mind if travel used actions. Maybe make it a very low-leveled storylet to find (or talk) your way from place to place, so it does cost an action but also provides a very small benefit (say, 10 Whispered Secrets or some random prize of equal value with chance of a greater reward)? This could cause a problem for new players though. Then perhaps hansoms could be added...
Otherwise I can't think of any action I'd like to be zero-cost. Like I said, I'm a minority :P
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@FelicityChase
Currently accepting: Almost all social actions. But please don't send me invitations to private dinners. And Nightmares may take a very long time to accept, unless you're willing to take some of mine in return.
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Branden Linton
Posts: 391
1/28/2012
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Felicity Chase wrote:
Alexis Kennedy wrote:
In the early days of Echo Bazaar, changing areas cost an action - we removed this when reshuffling the map, and although we'd like to add it back to make moving round London a less weightless-feeling experience, we know people will feel cheated, and the small gain in ludic consonance isn't worth the upset. When and if we add more location-dependent gameplay, we might decide there's enough long-term gameplay benefit from giving movement a cost again, but we'd rather avoid the pain in the meantime. Discontent from the player base doesn't always prevent us doing things if we see a long-term good, but it is always something we take into consideration.
Now this is something that I find interesting. I do remember finding travel to be surprisingly "weightless", as you've so accurately described, given that Fallen London is said to be like a labyrinth: "The streets of London were bent into a labyrinth with the Bazaar at the labyrinth's heart. Finding your way around can be troublesome. Pre-Bazaar maps can be surprisingly useful, but they're contraband. Don't be caught with one." But I'm sure I'm in a vast minority when I say I wouldn't mind if travel used actions. Maybe make it a very low-leveled storylet to find (or talk) your way from place to place, so it does cost an action but also provides a very small benefit (say, 10 Whispered Secrets or some random prize of equal value with chance of a greater reward)? This could cause a problem for new players though. Then perhaps hansoms could be added...
Otherwise I can't think of any action I'd like to be zero-cost. Like I said, I'm a minority :P
I actually like this idea I tend to grin in one spot anyways so I don't really mind costing actions to go between areas. As long as the story is always unique.
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Brom Girvan: a man of shadows and secrets. http://echobazaar.failbettergames.com/Profile/Brom~Girvan
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Urthdigger
Posts: 939
1/28/2012
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I'm oddly reminded of the Court... which is someplace I've yet to visit even though I should, simply because part of me feels like it would be a waste if I did not do everything I could do there in that trip.
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Looking for second chances to maximize your loot output from those troublesome storylets? Check out our handy gang of volunteers in this thread, or even volunteer yourself!
@Urthdigger on twitter
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Jack Vaux-Harrowden
Posts: 245
1/28/2012
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Urthdigger wrote:
I'm oddly reminded of the Court... which is someplace I've yet to visit even though I should, simply because part of me feels like it would be a waste if I did not do everything I could do there in that trip.
Getting into the Court just requires a word in the Duchess' ear, though; if you're Persuasive enough to make going worthwhile, you can always regain that Connection swiftly enough in the Shuttered Palace proper. Best not to worry about it; the Duchess is fairly generous to those in her favor.
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Patrick Reding
Posts: 440
1/28/2012
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I hated being locked in the Court, personally. It felt like I was being punished whenever I wanted to switch to some other content, leaving me grinding Persuassive well past the point of boredom. If the developers wanted to convey the feeling of a dim, miserable place filled with dim, miserable people, they've certainly succeeded. Once I unlocked Mahogany Hall, I left the Court behind in a heartbeat, only to be forced back when I needed to finish the story to unlock the Foreign Office. I shudder at the entire game playing like that, although I'll admit the costs to enter Doubt Street and the Foreign Office aren't so bad.
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http://echobazaar.failbettergames.com/Profile/Yana
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/28/2012
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I, for one, travel all around the city to remind myself where content sits, look for updates, plan my next move, and sometimes just to enjoy each area. Adding a cost would be a bit of a wrench.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Felicity Chase
Posts: 62
1/28/2012
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Traveling to the Court costs one action plus however many are needed to make up the connections that you lost. Traveling around more typical streets of the city would (probably?) only cost one singular action, and I'm suggesting adding a small reward and/or skill gain on top of that, so it shouldn't be as troublesome as the Court to enter and exit. That said, I'd forgotten about the Court's strict entry requirements (they're waiting for my opera, but I'm waiting for a script that I don't think I'll acquire for a very long time, so I have no motivation to return in the meantime). I suppose the dev team will have to find some happy balance if/when they implement the travel costs.
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@FelicityChase
Currently accepting: Almost all social actions. But please don't send me invitations to private dinners. And Nightmares may take a very long time to accept, unless you're willing to take some of mine in return.
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