Urthdigger
Posts: 939
1/28/2013
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Alexis Kennedy wrote:
I've said it before but it bears repeating: I bloody love you folks (and that 'you' includes BlastFantastic and Tesuji, who I replied to a little mischievously above, as well as everyone else in this thread). The most negative and aggressive comments I've ever seen on this site are tea and cucumber sandwiches compared to the kind of things routinely expressed on any major MMO board. By and large the community is helpful, courteous and enthusiastic. This, of course, is the huge advantage of making your game one giant reading comprehension test.
I think even the occasional snark helps matters. Your posts here are a lot more personal than the official correspondence in a good number of MMO boards, and it's a lot harder to vent abuse at someone who, well, seems like a genuine real person. That said, I always look at your avatar and think of a tiger at the keyboard, so I likely don't know what I'm talking about.
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Looking for second chances to maximize your loot output from those troublesome storylets? Check out our handy gang of volunteers in this thread, or even volunteer yourself!
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Tesuji
Posts: 161
1/28/2013
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Alexis Kennedy wrote:
But I do get why: (a) we can't attach an economic system to the game and lock content based on resource without expecting people to want to optimise for that, (b) of course capped players don't care whether content was designed to be playable by characters with stats of 30 or 70, they only care that their experience was suboptimal for them, right then. Which is understandable.
There's also the issue of 'traps for the unwary': storylines which are substantially less rewarding than their target audience would expect. Mutton Island, for example, is a Difficulty 110-115 storyline which yields ~0.80E/action, even before taking into account the trip it takes to get there (and the Rare Successes that give less than normal successes). A similar issue would be opportunity cards whose primary (or sole) purpose is to increase quirks, but don't actually do anything because of of caps which aren't ascertainable without playing.
To me, it's not so much an optimization issue as a player expectation issue, the degree to which players can simply play the game and trust that the rewards will be more-or-less commensurate with difficulty and the effects on their character will be more-or-less as anticipated. The less true that becomes, the more it incentivizes going outside the game for information and the less friendly the game is to casual players who don't do that.
Alexis Kennedy wrote:
>Ostentatious Diamonds...Contraband
Yah, that was just an oversight - we'll be fixing it at some point.
Magnificent Diamonds also need to be moved (currently one diamond is contraband, another is a curiosity and the third is a good). Also, the Ray-Drenched Cinder was originally described as a Luminosity item, but is categorized as a Good.
(And, in the same vein, if you ever have an intern you really wanted to cut loose on a thankless project, there's always the reclassification of qualities to their proper categories as opposed to most everything ending up in Story.)
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Tesuji.
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Seberin
Posts: 113
1/28/2013
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I've recently started playing through the promenade, and am quite enjoying it. I'm not sure if this is the proper venue for suggestions, but would it be possible to place Unseen and Approaching Your Destination on the left sidebar, where the major qualities and menaces reside? I have trouble remembering the values of those qualities when I'm returning from a break mid-promenade, and it would be helpful to see them immediately without rummaging through the qualities in Myself.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Seberin%20Cirion
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friendshipranger
Posts: 274
1/28/2013
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Tesuji wrote:
Alexis Kennedy wrote:
But I do get why: (a) we can't attach an economic system to the game and lock content based on resource without expecting people to want to optimise for that, (b) of course capped players don't care whether content was designed to be playable by characters with stats of 30 or 70, they only care that their experience was suboptimal for them, right then. Which is understandable.
There's also the issue of 'traps for the unwary': storylines which are substantially less rewarding than their target audience would expect. Mutton Island, for example, is a Difficulty 110-115 storyline which yields ~0.80E/action, even before taking into account the trip it takes to get there (and the Rare Successes that give less than normal successes). A similar issue would be opportunity cards whose primary (or sole) purpose is to increase quirks, but don't actually do anything because of of caps which aren't ascertainable without playing.
I'd argue a great deal of the areas in the Zee aren't meant to be profitable, per se. This is off topic, but do you remember Mass Effect? For those unfamiliar, the game featured countless planets in addition to quest hub worlds, some with side quests, most with at least a token collectible. The point of those wasn't to reward exploration, but to make the world feel, well, BIG. Galaxies are big, and so is the Neath. Not all of it can be rewarding in a tangible economic way. And labeling it based on level and economy would ward people off expanding their vision of the overall scope of the setting. Besides, you wouldn't want Final Fantasy syndrome, where clearly the outlying islands in the middle of nowhere become endless grind zones. Besides, level 100-115 content is well after POSI. If you've stuck around past that, you're not casual anymore; you've earned your stripes. Plus, Mutton Island has some lore rewards for the Carnival.
edited by friendshipranger on 1/28/2013
edited by friendshipranger on 1/28/2013
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/J.L.%20Moriarty
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
1/28/2013
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Tesuji wrote:
Mutton Island, for example, is a Difficulty 110-115 storyline which yields ~0.80E/action ... not so much an optimization issue as a player expectation issue, the degree to which players can simply play the game and trust that the rewards will be more-or-less commensurate with difficulty
This is very much my point. Even knowing the echo-equivalent output of this (assuming the numbers are correct - off the top of my head I wouldn't know) is the mark of quite a small minority of minimaxing players. For the majority, worrying about 25% difference over a few days of play is optimisation. I guarantee there are plenty of players who'll read this having played Mutton Island and go 'oh were the rewards poor then?' and others who'll think 'eh, so what?' ... as well as a few who'll be thinking, 0.8E! well sod that for a game of soldiers, I'll update my planning spreadsheet.
edit: previous post, case in point. 
edited by Alexis on 1/28/2013
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
1/28/2013
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Seberin wrote:
I'm not sure if this is the proper venue for suggestions, but would it be possible to place Unseen and Approaching Your Destination on the left sidebarl.
There's a patch coming that addresses this and more, but StoryNexus games will get it first, alas.
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protonsinthedark
Posts: 106
1/28/2013
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Ewan C wrote:
Alexis sent a very polite 'working as intended' response to my bug report on this . So yeah, RNG at work - I echo the comment above about playing through several times and never seeing any 'loiter' or 'curiosity shop' options, only marks. i did try to hang back a couple of times, but failed all those luck tests :-/.
AFAIK, loitering is always available--it's one of the choices in the 'Stop and Consider' storylet. (The other option is 'How does this work?', which arguably should really be a top-level option instead of hidden like that.)
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Mio, a midnight, sinister, irresistible, and breathtaking lady of mysterious origins.
Calling cards, social actions, menace reduction requests, and newspaper interviews (Nemesis ambition) welcome. No boxed cats or Affluent Photographer requests please.
Other Characters:
tinyassassin, an orphan trained as an assassin, currently hunting the Vake.
Alexandre and Adriana, a pair of hedonistic twins betting their souls on the Marvellous...if they don't lose them to the devils first.
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
1/28/2013
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Urthdigger wrote:
I think even the occasional snark helps matters. Your posts here are a lot more personal than the official correspondence in a good number of MMO boards, and it's a lot harder to vent abuse at someone who, well, seems like a genuine real person. That said, I always look at your avatar and think of a tiger at the keyboard, so I likely don't know what I'm talking about.
cheers! and you're right, the avatar is inaccurate. I don't have that hat IRL.
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
1/29/2013
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Lady Red wrote:
I think there's a bug too - it's currently impossible, surely, to reach 50 trophies, the way it's set up? Reaching the destination:10 thing brings up the option to go and cash in your trophies, or to click 'perhaps not' - which I presumed would let me go back and collect some more trophies. Clicking 'perhaps not' doesn't work, however.
I still had good fun playing, though, and I think it'll be great when the bugs are ironed out.
I suspect you can only get 50 trophies if you can pickpocket over in Veilgarden, and the text already says that's not available yet.
I've tried the techniques Sir Fred advocates, and the best I've done so far is 27 Trophies. Use the Blythedale option.
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Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355
Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
1/29/2013
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Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
If there is such a bug, I've not experienced it - I just finished a Promenade with 51 trophies, and shall echo the results to my profile!
I am truly impressed, Sir. 51 Trophies! I wonder if that's a record.
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Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355
Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
1/29/2013
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Aximillio wrote:
This seems like an awesome way of getting more venom-rubies, if nothing else =). Also, it's low-level content and we can't expect PoSI level income.
I find the randomification of it to make it more exciting - it's not grinding in the same way since it has a slight luck aspect. I won't spend all my time in them, though, obviously.
It's a great way to get Ostentatious Diamonds, too. But I agree that it's much more interesting for lower level characters (one of which I also have).
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Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355
Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/29/2013
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I've not been able to replicate it, but I did manage ~41 trophies - though that did involve succeeding at a risky last-minute loiter with only 2 Unseen. And I've accidentally wasted a card by trying to raise Unseen when it was already 3 more than once.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
1/29/2013
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Corentin Os wrote:
A delightfully diverting little jaunt! :] But I must say I am finding it ludicrously difficult to keep my Approaching below ten long enough to accumulate any worthwhile amount of Trophies - the curiosity shop cards are just too few and far between, and the loitering option doesn't give a very good deal, even on a success. Sir Frederick, might you elaborate on your technique?
Corentin: If you take the first option on the glim-juggler card, it will restore Unseen (often back to 3). Combining that with the loitering Option really helps. It also helps to be able to have 4 Opportunity cards in hand, of course.
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Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355
Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Fhoenix
Posts: 602
1/29/2013
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I must admit I am one of those people, who have pestered Failbetter with an RNG "bug". Although in my case at least it was "for the love of light, I've been trying to get that card for a month, surely there is something wrong here". I do get probabilities (more people should!), but a sufficiently asinine RNG is indistinguishable from malice. And somebody will and up with those bad odds.
On the subject of malicoius RNG, I think my Aunt is trying to poison me. The number of times I had to go to that boat over the river because of her... and not a single action refresh. And yes, I know that card is not worth to play even on average.
edited by Fhoenix on 1/29/2013
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My Character
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friendshipranger
Posts: 274
1/29/2013
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Fhoenix wrote:
I must admit I am one of those people, who have pestered Failbetter with an RNG "bug". Although in my case at least it was "for the love of light, I've been trying to get that card for a month, surely there is something wrong here". I do get probabilities (more people should!), but a sufficiently asinine RNG is indistinguishable from malice. And somebody will and up with those bad odds.
On the subject of malicoius RNG, I think my Aunt is trying to poison me. The number of times I had to go to that boat over the river because of her... and not a single action refresh. And yes, I know that card is not worth to play even on average.
edited by Fhoenix on 1/29/2013
Yeah, but when has drinking with your elderly Aunt ever really been a good idea, anyway?
Of course, I'm one to talk. While grinding Connected: Criminals, Moriarty keeps hooking up with the Singer even though I know 9/10 she'll resent him after. But that one time, it's satisfying in the strangest way..this is how bad imaginary relationships start, man. That said, it would be cool if that relationship went somewhere, but from a literary perspective it's almost more poetic and resonant that it won't, ever. Which is genius, since it implies that via the skinner box of RNG it conditions you to keep repeating a self-destructive, masochistic tango with little actual emotional payoff or movement. Which means a simulation of the symptoms of a dead-end relationship are baked into the game mechanics.
edited by friendshipranger on 1/29/2013
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/J.L.%20Moriarty
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Urthdigger
Posts: 939
1/29/2013
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I thought a little on the nature of "Efficient stuff versus inefficient stuff", and what personally grinds my gears. Despite making a thread devoted to the subject (Which I probably should update, except that another thread kinda proved the fidgeting writer blows all those out of the water), it actually doesn't bug me TOO much when something is suboptimal. A lot of the various things have other reasons you might want to do them, such as how I'm grinding the newspaper because it can also give me unique qualities. There are, however, two occasions where it seriously bugs me: When an option is worth less than a direct predecessor, and when it is woefully, WOEFULLY inefficient compared to other options.
The first example can be seen most clearly when doing the Pygmalion activities at Mahogany Hall. From a gameplay perspective, there is literally no reason to play the Pygmalion branches: Not only are they more difficult, unless you literally just hit the stat requirement to unlock Pygmalion in the first place or have already ground up enough of the quality that you're nearly finished, they also give less rewards both in terms of profit AND Pygmalion progress. They're directly unlocked by the stat challenge branches, and are more difficult, yet are all around worse in terms of reward. And that just kinda grinds my gears.
As for the second example, I don't really mean when something is, say, .8 E per action. Or even .5. I'm talking cases like obtaining licenses at Mahogany Hall, which actually COSTS you an echo each time you play it. Yes, you make back less than you spend. Or spending your research at zee on making collated research, which is a mere fifth of the value you'd get spending it 500 at a time for goods, or just simply grabbing treasure on the islands instead. I understand the unique item you get alongside it is priceless in a way, but there's definitely something wrong when I could literally pick the other option on a storylet, then BUY the base item from the bazaar and convert up to what the inefficient storyline would give me, and it would be more efficient.
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Looking for second chances to maximize your loot output from those troublesome storylets? Check out our handy gang of volunteers in this thread, or even volunteer yourself!
@Urthdigger on twitter
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Corentin Os
Posts: 109
1/29/2013
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Catherine Raymond wrote:
Corentin: If you take the first option on the glim-juggler card, it will restore Unseen (often back to 3). Combining that with the loitering Option really helps. It also helps to be able to have 4 Opportunity cards in hand, of course.
Thank you! I've been taking that option, plus any others where the non-robbery choice hints at being helpful - but dang! I totally forgot that most of the people in this thread will have four Opportunity cards to use! Though I'm currently making a - quite possibly very, very misguided - attempt to buy premises at the Tower of the Sun and Moon with Antique Mysteries despite only having stats between 65 and 84. We'll, uh... see how that goes :]
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Always delighted to make the acquaintance of delicious friends!
Profile here - battles of flora (strength), interviews (LF), gently rustling parcels etc. etc. welcome
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Nagato-01
Posts: 92
1/29/2013
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Take your time~ I'm not sure whether the Bazaar Premises were easier or harder in the past. It used to be 8000 Whispered Secrets, which I obtained by romancing the Beauty and the Wit simultaneously in the Court. I get the feeling that 50 Permits would be faster, but I'm statcapped, and when I got the Bazaar, I wasn't a PoSI yet.
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He can always be replaced.
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protonsinthedark
Posts: 106
1/29/2013
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Nagato-01 wrote:
Take your time~ I'm not sure whether the Bazaar Premises were easier or harder in the past. It used to be 8000 Whispered Secrets, which I obtained by romancing the Beauty and the Wit simultaneously in the Court. I get the feeling that 50 Permits would be faster, but I'm statcapped, and when I got the Bazaar, I wasn't a PoSI yet.
8k Whispered Secrets seems rather off...are you sure you didn't drop a zero somewhere? If that was actually the case, I could have gotten Rooms at the Bazaar a long time ago! I recall always too put off by the grind to try to go for it. But 8k W.Secrets would have been achievable in just a day or two, even back when the 70 (+10) actions per day cap was still in effect...
(P.S. I don't mean to sound accusative or anything--I'm just trying to figure out if my memory is that bad!)
edited by protonsinthedark on 1/29/2013
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Mio, a midnight, sinister, irresistible, and breathtaking lady of mysterious origins.
Calling cards, social actions, menace reduction requests, and newspaper interviews (Nemesis ambition) welcome. No boxed cats or Affluent Photographer requests please.
Other Characters:
tinyassassin, an orphan trained as an assassin, currently hunting the Vake.
Alexandre and Adriana, a pair of hedonistic twins betting their souls on the Marvellous...if they don't lose them to the devils first.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
1/29/2013
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It's 80k Whispered Secrets.
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Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
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