 Moleculor Posts: 14
2/13/2015
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So I'm on my second captain, have managed to uncover about half or more of the map. The parts that remain uncovered are most of the eastern section (minus the Khalinate or whatever it's called), and areas small enough that I'm fairly comfortable that there's nothing of interest inside them (unless a zee-bat doesn't reveal some things in the game).
The problem is that I don't really know what to do next. I've hit a *ton* of ports in the game, explored them quite thoroughly (or what feels like it). There doesn't seem to be too much left, minus an assorted quest or two that I've probably forgotten the location of, or places that will require multiple hours or days of work just to unlock (such as having to transport what looks like will amount to 25 units of coffee beans, etc, across most of the map and back).
Ship upgrades seem worthless, or not worth the time. None of the ships look all that attractive. They all have smaller holds or heavier ships or are *prohibitively* expensive to the point that I'll essentially be doing Korean-MMO-grinding just to afford them.
I've stopped receiving admiralty favors (for some reason) for port reports from previously visited ports, and the eastern section of the map is pretty much out of my reach with the limited cargo space and fuel consumption of the boat I have.
I really don't know where to go or what to do next. It feels like I've covered everything on the map that I can reach, and have nothing else worthwhile to work towards.
What am I missing?
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 Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493
2/13/2015
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I'll remind you that forum rules require that you be polite and respectful, and refrain from being offensive or deliberately provocative. Also, while they don't specifically prohibit being a Negative Nancy, it's certainly not the best kind of Nancy you could be.
-- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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 Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374
2/13/2015
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Thanks: I do prefer 'true power beyond the Zee' to 'hatkitty', which is what the miscreants round here usually call me.
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 Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posts: 228
2/14/2015
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Gregg Johnson wrote:
The description on the shop *reads* like I'll consume the same amount of fuel (i.e. have the same fuel efficiency, especially since that stat *does not change* between most two engines) per distance traveled. Except it really doesn't... that's an unjustified inference. It only says that both of these things will increase, and they do. It also says this is "essential for large slow ships". If you want to infer something beyond what the description says, why not that larger engines aren't essential for small fast ships? Because they really aren't. The effect on the starter boat is much less than on heavier craft.
I'll agree, tentatively, that this could be better explained in game, through the tutorial or the advice for captains book. But at the same time, power is really the most meaningful stat that can be shown. But the game doesn't lie about this, any more than it is lying about the other things it doesn't explain (lamps consuming fuel, etc.) which, while useful to know, can be discovered independent of a tutorial, assuming you aren't unjustly biased against seeing them in the first place, and are paying attention.
edited by Olorin on 2/14/2015
Yeah, I can understand why someone would get confused by this, but I don't think it's deceptive or unclear, it's just something that could be made clearer. Nothing in the game's statements is false or dishonest. Could be clearer, sure, but it isn't wrong.
Also, Moleculor, I wouldn't put much stock in ZeaCat's "analysis" Zeacat is trying to get you riled up and angry and leaving out salient facts. As I went over above, the increase in fuel costs for more powerful engines has other tradeoffs as well -- faster travel time means you accrue less terror, use fewer supplies, etc. I've put in a lot of hours in the starter boat and I've never regretted upgrading the engine.
I don't think your error is that you bought a fancy engine. Rather, I'd suggest that you are
1) Not taking enough risks. Half the responses I see you giving are "that's too risky" or "I might fail the check" or whatever. Ok, so you fail the check; so you die. You start over again and have a chance to take different choices. If you grab a few of the Legacies your character might even be better when it comes back; I just killed my since-early-access Captain three times and my newest is now a stronger character than before the first suicide. If you're playing with a manual savegame then this doesn't even matter anyway; if you're playing Invictus (I play invinctus) then death is a chance to see what all those other story options were that you didn't get to choose the first time, and thus experience more of the game.
2) Not taking advantage of resources available to you (the wiki, other player's advice, starting quests that are designed to get you over the initial hump like sphinxstone, wine to godfall, etc.). When three or four people all suggest "hey, why don't you try X", maybe it'd be easier and more productive to actually go try X rather than reply in detail to all of them why each of them is individually wrong and X just won't work. At least if you actually try it you'll settle the question -- either they're all right and you'll get ahead, or they're all wrong and you'll prove them so by actually trying. edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/14/2015
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Doctor~Hieronymous
Please, no photographers.
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 Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374
2/16/2015
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FogChicken1 wrote:
I think this may have been deliberate on the part of the authors. I think you are supposed to feel like nothing will ever change there, and that the sisters will always be around to provide a little oasis of comfort and normality in the middle of the cold, dark world that is Sunless Sea. I think that the Event, when it arrives, is intended to be unexpected and shocking. It certainly shocked me the first time I encountered it.
This was precisely my intention.
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 FogChicken1 Posts: 29
2/16/2015
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Moleculor wrote:
I just expected a game with this intriguing of a backstory and writing to provide more feedback and information than it does. I'm here for the writing, and I feel like the writing is dropping the ball. Eight+ identical unchanging events is defined as 'progress' somehow, and that just doesn't feel right.
Coming late to this thread (which, after skimming through it, is possibly just as well) but I wanted to comment on this.
I think this may have been deliberate on the part of the authors. I think you are supposed to feel like nothing will ever change there, and that the sisters will always be around to provide a little oasis of comfort and normality in the middle of the cold, dark world that is Sunless Sea. I think that the Event, when it arrives, is intended to be unexpected and shocking. It certainly shocked me the first time I encountered it. If the game had been constantly and obviously reminding me that there was a story in progress, I think they would have lost the element of surprise, and diminished the impact.
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 Avian Overlord Posts: 62
2/13/2015
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To be fair to the OP, I think most of us on this forum probably played during early access. It's much easier to know what's in the game when you read the patch notes of it being put it. To use an example from the OP, I would have no idea the Salt Lions had a story if I hadn't read the update notes when they put it in. Knowing how StoryNexus works (which, as FL veterans we do) also makes things much easier.
On the subject of the wiki, I feel that if the response to any complaint or frustration with a freaking STORY BASED GAME is "go look up spoilers", than we have a problem. Of course, I'm not really sure how to make the game more newbie friendly. Having the ability to ask officers for hints or something like that?
Hints for the OP:
- Whoever put the book pages together knew one of the pages (Pelgin) was less scrutable than the others, and included a note. Seen anything that resembles the description? Try poking around there.
- Mirror-catch boxes are often used for smuggling contraband. You'll need a port that specializes in that. Maybe people who were kicked out of somewhere more... refined?
- If something has a quality, it's progressing, even if you can't see it.
- You'll have more freedom to explore if you get a cash buffer. If only someone needed very expensive things they have a lot of to be moved a short way. Just because its not enthralling doesn't mean it can't help you get there.
- Vanderbligt (or however it's spelled) has another quest you can do. It will take some supplies, but give you a profitable way to learn about the east.
- After all that, how about a nice game of chess. Or a lot of nice games of chess.
- Trading is unlikely to make a real profit without a large prior investment, but can help cover travel costs.
edited by Avian Overlord on 2/13/2015
-- The Principled Dectective-http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Corvidae Open for social actions of all sorts.
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 Master Polarimini Posts: 310
2/13/2015
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I find the premise of the post a bit bizarre: you say you have no goal and at the same time that you have explored barely more than half of the map. "Explore" should be one of your primary goals at this situation! Personal experience, I could uncover almost three quarters of the map with the basic ship, so while the bigger ones are definitely useful, you can do a decent job by calibrating well you routes (usually I follow some storyline, plus the experience tells me which items is useful to bring in that route). You are at your second captain, so by now you should know more or less what to expect from this or that port. In addition, if you explore with some awareness, you will seen that the game is scattered with a myriad of secondary quests: there are the officiers; most places have one; some quests force you to make quite a grand tour of the islands, etc. Many islands need more than one visit to be fully exploited. So there is definitely no shortage of short- and long-term goals.
Also, yes: as Gregg said, paying attention to the text is key. I think many players play the game through a prism of a specific game style. I read a lot of "roguelike", "permadeath", "trade", etc. I don't say it's wrong, but it's surely a very partial view. There are all these components, but Sunless Sea is at its core a game of stories and riddles, and in this sense it's actually quite close to an old-style graphic (if not even text) adventure grafted on a world with a rich and unusual mythology, where you have to read everything to have the right clues to do something -plus using some brain! The Venderbight book of colors is one of the easiest examples: you just need to read the description of an item, and if a Neath color is mentioned, it's probably good for the quest. But you need to read the description! edited by Master Polarimini on 2/13/2015 edited by Master Polarimini on 2/13/2015
-- Devices workshop opening soon...
Follow my story at http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Master~Polarimini
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 Fretling Posts: 529
2/13/2015
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I believe I literally saw someone on a different board post that they had exploited some-such way of making lots of money in a short time, and now, to their unhappiness, they had nothing on which to spend it.
Well, says I.
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 Gregg Johnson Posts: 263
2/13/2015
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
Master Polarimini wrote:
*gasp* note what is requested where on a paper
I know this setting is steampunk and everything but that just seems like taking the archaism too far. Plus then I'd have to find it again and who could possibly do that on my desk? They have these newfangled eeh-lectrikuhl notepads these days, I believe they involve rubbing amber and silk together to... well I don't really understand how they do it, but you can keep track of things a lot easier than on paper notes. Or so I'm told. edited by Olorin on 2/13/2015
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 Fretling Posts: 529
2/13/2015
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In the end, it's a game. If you're not enjoying it, remember that you are not obliged to spend your time on it -- we're ephemeral beings, and our limited lives are better used for things that bring us -- and the people around us -- more happiness. It's certainly disappointing to end up disliking a game -- or any other media -- that you had been looking forward to, that you had paid for, that you had expected to like; however, at some point, it may be wise to cut your losses. No media-object is meaningful or enjoyable to every audience. edited by Fretling on 2/13/2015
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 genesis Posts: 924
2/13/2015
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The problem with the "if you are not enjoying it you are not obliged to spend time on it" is that Moleculor's frustration is by far not unique. Eventually, a lot of people will in fact take that advice and not play the game, and others will not buy the game.
The Neath is one of the best settings there is out there and I dearly hope to see more of it, including the speculative dirigible expansion. But that depends on the SS's financial success, which depends on its ability to pick up new players. And, for all of its many many wonderful qualities, SS is actively newbie hostile - beyond what is required to maintain the game tone and possibly enough to damage its own standing as a commercial venture for FB.
I *hope* I am wrong. But my intuition, based on a) the amount of frustration from newbie players, b) complete lack of explicit comment from FB as to their views on the matter and c) lack of empathy from many enfranchised players, is more pessimistic.
-- http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin
Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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 penknife Posts: 85
2/13/2015
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Established players, I think genesis means. And, speaking personally, it's really not a lack of empathy, it's ... I figured out how to play the game while it was in beta by playing it, dying SO MANY TIMES, learning how something worked and then having it change completely in the next update, dying SO MANY MORE TIMES, checking the forum, checking the wiki, beating my head against the game some more, and eventually reaching a point where I triumphantly had enough money to survive and pretty much knew how to navigate through the game's major storylines without having to die MORE TIMES.
It wouldn't have been as fun if it weren't hard. It's been harder than it is now. If playing a game that's very hard at first, where you will die, and die, and be confused, and die, isn't fun, then you probably shouldn't do it. Or should use the wiki to make it easier. But I think that's fundamentally what this game is; I'm not sure you could change that without making it an essentially different game.
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Penknife Most social actions welcome, no SMEN or Boxed Cats please.
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 Guest
2/13/2015
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Fretling, In this case 'enfranchised' is being used as a rough synonym for experienced or 'clued-in'. It's a slightly non-standard usage, but people use it that way fairly often. It derives from the political meaning in that to be enfranchised means that you have certain privileges i.e. knowing the background lore from Fallen London makes a player privileged because they have the background knowledge and context that eases the transition to SS.
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 Moleculor Posts: 14
2/13/2015
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Fretling wrote:
It's not just going to fall into your lap. Several of the items that match the Neathbow pages require actual engagement with their islands of origin, not just a zail-by.
Check your Learning About: the Tireless Mechanic quality. Unless your game is bugged, it literally tells you, flat-out, what you need to do to advance his storyline.
He needs a mirrorcatch box and a clay man. I've mentioned it a few times, and mentioned the fact that I don't remember which one of the multiple dozens of shops sell the box at. This means I now have no goal short of 'aimlessly wander the zee hoping to run into it again', at least for him specifically.
I don't know why he has an option available for a Serpent whatsit.
My next step will most likely be spending 80% of my echoes to advance the Navigator's quest chain. It'll probably end in me running out of fuel or something, but I'm less and less enamored with this game every time I have to sit here and stare at a slow-as-molasses boat for hours at a time.
EDIT: Scratch that. My trip up to check if I had things for the dude obsessed with colors cost me more than I could afford. I now can't afford to sail out and also spend the 1000 Echoes to buy the two live specimens I need to advance his quest. Which means I'm even worse off than I was before, and the one thing I had as a goal is no longer available to me. Damnit, I should have remembered the whole point of this thread was I was pretty sure my next trip out would do precisely this. edited by Moleculor on 2/13/2015
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![ZeaCat [Banned]](http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/5faa8181a412c42d7132c5aef7ed5e85?d=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.failbettergames.com%2fimages%2fguestavatar.gif&s=64) ZeaCat [Banned] Posts: 20
2/13/2015
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You're not.
There's three massive mechanics issues with Sunless Sea at the moment:
1) The entire game is balanced around port reports and artificially making echos scarce so that fuel / supplies are limited. I raised ~14k legitimately (see point #3) and bought the maenad and the serpentine engine. My speed was the same. My fuel / supplies consumption went up. I had +30 more cargo, but I had exactly the same routine as pre-upgrade. In this game, if you upgrade without a buffer zone of 2-3k, you're dead.
2) The game is intended to be played so that you unlock the various endings / special circumstances / legacies slowly, and pass down your benefits to your scions. The issue with this is really simple:
2a) New players cannot know about legacies while playing / accidentally unlocking them 2b) Farming a house / scion is actually quite tough 2c) You have *zero* chance at certain events until you understand how to :cheese: stats or pass on legacies or otherwise abuse mechanics
3) At the moment there are a few :cheese: trading options. Balanced ones like mushroom wine > apes > coffee > irem > linen. Sure, you could do those.
OR: you can abuse the crap out of sunlight. Sunlight is so broken, the game even includes a ridiculous story event for it:
Grind to maeada (70 hold) Unlock bruiser Buy 36 boxes Go up to sunlight Terror is reduced by 40+ just by going Fill boxes Grab anarchist event Go to London - 1 box profit (400) is more than the fuel you spent, without even considering the anarchist top-up. The Anarchist hand-in (x6 times) gives x11 fuel etc, the bruiser buys them for 400 and hands empty boxes back... so rinse, repeat x6.
Did we mention that the canal is literally 2-3 fuel south of London? Oh, so, that's a really short journey then.
That's 80k profit. More if you're boring and do it with a merchant vessel.
So, no. The game is massively unbalanced / broken atm. I expect twee little "down votes" for saying this, but really... EA / beta is supposed to catch these things.
Instead, the sunlight abuse run is actually coded into the experience. And instead of anyone noticing this... the Aest isle got the wound nerf. >.<
Badly balanced, badly designed. edited by ZeaCat on 2/13/2015
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 Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493
2/13/2015
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Moleculor wrote:
Ship upgrades seem worthless, or not worth the time. None of the ships look all that attractive. They all have smaller holds or heavier ships or are *prohibitively* expensive to the point that I'll essentially be doing Korean-MMO-grinding just to afford them.
There's your problem! The starter ship will get you around the western zee, sure, but you can't easily reach the more distant, lucrative ports with it, or equip the more powerful weapons you'll need to start profitably hunting monsters and pirates. The bigger ships are heavier, sure, so you'll need bigger engines and more fuel - but the hold space and money-making capability more than compensate for the fuel requirements.
Quest-wise, well, have you hunted down all the pieces required for Principles' End or the Curator? Those can pay out very nicely, with top-notch Officers and/or a several thousand's worth of loot. Have you unlocked the Voracious Diplomat and planted Agents in Khan's Heart and Port Carnelian? Once you invest a bit of time in those, you can pick up Vital Intelligence every time you visit, which adds up very quickly.
Equipment-wise, your Forward weapons are the most powerful, especially the two quest reward ones. Get a ship that can equip one of those, and level up your combat stats, and before too long you'll be able to take down boss monsters for ~1k a pop, plus hunting Tyrant-Moths for Sapphires, Morays for Ivory, and pretty much everything else for Trophies.
Long story short - invest money and you'll make more money. At that point, Port Reports are small fry.
-- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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 CaptainClaw Posts: 59
2/13/2015
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Adding to what Madmurdock, Fretling and SFT-C said,
The principles quest is also highly rewarding. 77 scintillack is nothing to scoff at.
I did not abuse sunlight, played vanilla and upgraded the forward guns, my engines and my ship.
I used the merchant ship to trade and made 30k+ echoes and bought a frigate recently.
If you want to rush through the game and make infinite money, sure go ahead and abuse sunlight all you want. The crux of the game for me, lies however in completing quests, enjoying the writing and unraveling the subplots.
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 zwol Posts: 40
2/13/2015
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Some personal observations.
- In the starting ship, with no upgrades, baseline stats, and ten crew, 20 fuel and 15 supplies reliably gets me all the way to the uttermost East and back without having to buy more. (That's straight East, returning one map row above or below. It might be more accurate to say that this allows a voyage which visits 10–12 map tiles.) If that seems impossible to you, try turning the lights off more often. I usually return to London with 1 or 2 fuel and 3 or 4 supplies left, and Terror between 60 and 80.
- On each voyage, you should have a specific goal in mind when you leave London—"find out what's in those four unexplored tiles", "run prisoner's honey to the Uttershroom and pick up blemmigans", that sort of thing—and you should plan your route in advance, and then you should hit every single port along the way and get the Port Report. I haven't spaded this out exactly, but I think the break-even point on Port Reports alone—that is, the Admiralty pays you enough to cover 20 fuel, 15 supplies, and 50 points of Terror reduction just for those—is about 10 reports. Conveniently, a voyage which visits 10–12 map tiles should turn in 10–14 Port Reports.
- Until you know where most things are, each voyage should uncover more of the map; after you know where most things are, each voyage should advance at least two storylines; plus always try to get Strategic Information, Clay Men, and sphinxstone if it fits into your route.
- The only ship upgrade that I'm sure is worth buying is the Hellthrasher. With the Hellthrasher and Iron ~60 you can reliably one-hit zee-bats, steam-pinnaces, and Auroral Megalops, which means you don't have to worry about getting killed in sight of home. Do not attempt to fight anything else in the starting ship, particularly if your turning rate is slow, until you have a lot more Iron. (I have not yet managed to construct any of the weapons created via plot events, or afford any of the ships with more gun slots.)
- You also definitely want to purchase an Elegant Mansion and an Ironclad Will as soon as possible, and once you have them, you should romance someone in London and start a family; the benefits to this are enormous. (Terror reduction is ~50% cheaper with a family to come home to; a Scion lets you pass more stats along when you die, Heirlooms let you pass money along too.) Romancing an officer is more fun story-wise but not as rewarding, which makes me a little sad.
- If you have one of the bigger ships, don't run with a full crew! 30 crew eat three times as much food as 10 crew. You gotta have a margin above half, but the difference in supply consumption between 20 and 30 crew is easily the difference between turning a profit and turning to cannibalism. (That said, once you have a bigger ship you should be able to safely hunt Pirate Frigates, Western Angler Crabs, and Bound-Sharks for extra food.)
- Finally, to underscore what others have said: your goals in this game should be driven by storylines, not trading. You will have more fun and you will wind up making more money. Every officer has a storyline now, I think? And many of the far ports do too.
edited by zwol on 2/13/2015 edited by zwol on 2/13/2015
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 Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posts: 228
2/13/2015
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Moleculor wrote:
Problem is, almost all of those story lines are something I don't know how to advance. I need some sort've "Strange Catch" (two of them, in fact, and no idea how to get it), a "Serpent Trap" (no idea how to get it), two live specimens (incredibly expensive, but I can afford it, it'll be the only thing I can do now at this point so I'll do that next, goodbye 1000 echoes), expensive coffee beans and a lot more Iron (only a 32% chance to succeed, and considering the costs, I'm wary of trying at that percentage chance), and I need to visit somewhere virtually out of my range (and entirely undiscovered).
So yeah, three entirely unachievable things, two very expensive things, and a thing out of my current range, all for my officers. (One officer has no goal or story, it seems.) edited by Moleculor on 2/13/2015
Ok, I'll actually help you out. (I feel like a lot of the thread has just been trying to argue with you, but hey, your game is your game and your experience of it is your experience of it).
When you need quest items like that, the best place to check is to go to the wiki and just plug in the search term.
http://sunlesssea.gamepedia.com/Sunless_Sea_Wiki
For example, this link will tell you some places where you can get a Strange Catch: http://sunlesssea.gamepedia.com/Strange_Catch
Of course you don't have to do that if you don't want spoilers, but then you have to rely on Option B, which is sailing around constantly to every port and remembering everything. I view the wiki as my Captain's collected knowledge from his years of zee-experience and gossip and rumour. The wiki is generally kept relatively spoiler free but there's limits to that of course given the nature of a wiki.
For range with the starting ship what people aren't telling you that I've seen is that turning off your lamp just about doubles your range; your lamp burns slightly more than twice as much fuel as the base starting engine. Of course, there's the terror tradeoff, but it's manageable. Also, there are intermediate points where you can reprovision (Khanate is good for this especially if you get a Nephrite Ring for the better shops). edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/13/2015 edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/13/2015
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Doctor~Hieronymous
Please, no photographers.
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 Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posts: 228
2/13/2015
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Master Polarimini wrote:
*gasp* note what is requested where on a paper
I know this setting is steampunk and everything but that just seems like taking the archaism too far. Plus then I'd have to find it again and who could possibly do that on my desk? edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/13/2015
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Doctor~Hieronymous
Please, no photographers.
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 Moleculor Posts: 14
2/13/2015
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penknife wrote:
You need the mirrorcatch box to build the serpent trap. If you're seeing the request for the mirrorcatch box, clay men, etc., you're seeing what he needs. If you can't remember which shop sells mirrorcatch boxes, check the wiki.
I realize that Minecraft relied heavily on wikis to keep people from smashing their face into a wall, but it shouldn't be required to play this game.
I went ahead and spoiled myself. It's in a shop I'm not sure I can access a long distance away, at a high price.
It's *not* fun taking hours to sail to these places and back again, especially since I've already been to them twice before and nothing about them changed the second time through, I'm not sure that sailing out there will actually achieve anything worthwhile (the traps in the game have made me wary), and the thought of having to sail out there yet again is making me not want to play again, no matter how strong the writing or impressive the setting.
penknife wrote:
It's generally a bad idea to do things that anger the gods in the game, unless you like being cursed.
Yeah, well, hindsight tells me gods are a thing in the game, and they actually have time enough to waste on fucking with me. Who knew? Not knowing that bit wiped out an entire quest line that's apparently important, but oh well, that's what I get for exploring.
penknife wrote:
Try playing chess in the port where that's an option. That leads to a quest that is one way to get Apocyan. Be patient; you have to repeat the chess action multiple times before you get the quest hook.
Already done it as far as I can. Can't beat it any more, the quest is too hard (unless I start risking a serious increase in whatever penalty failing the quest gives me, whatever that was, and the cost of perma-death is just too high to risk that).
penknife wrote:
Yeah, that's a tough combination of requests. I admit to sometimes just buying the silk in London even though that's a loss in Echoes, because most ways of getting either silk or Romantic Literature are a pain in the ass.
I'm beginning to get the impression that I've just had nothing but lousy luck for this game, and I'm going to have to commit suicide and wipe my chart just to progress... but that means hours and hours and *hours* of sailing and repeating content I've already seen. Not a pleasant thought.
penknife wrote:
Keep running Sphinxstone (it's profitable even before you reach the end of the story), and something different will happen. Keep visiting the sisters and something different will happen there, too.
See, that's just bad design/writing. I expected better in a game with such solid writing. If 'doing stuff' causes things to change, then things shouldn't stay the same when I do stuff.
Progression hiding behind identical descriptions of the same event over and over again is *not* interesting, and is a bit like grinding in an MMO, only this time it's text descriptions rather than rats.
I've already visited with and talked to the sisters 7+ times. The interactions are still identical. Two plainly commercial interactions for Sphinxstone were identical as well. Bad writing. There should be *some* variation, to encourage further exploration, not stale grinding drudgery to punish it.
penknife wrote:
Although they're definitely not useless before that -- they're a cheap way to get the gods' attention, which is useful in a number of places.
Yeah, if I hadn't read in-game explanations of game mechanics (wat?), I wouldn't have known that's how you remove curses. (Of course, I didn't know that when I needed to know it, and haven't run across any curses since, so they remain useless for now.)
penknife wrote:
It's not literally any item. It's any item that's one of the colors listed. You'll know from the item description.
Now that's something I wish I'd known before wasting a third of my fuel taking a trip up there. I was pretty sure that was the case, but people *kept insisting* I must have *some* sort've item that could finish some part of that quest.
Gregg Johnson wrote:
Generally, figureheads are found on ships... That's not a very useful hint but eh. Keep your eyes open. There're some easier ways to get this colour, though.
Well yeah, I assume it's going to be on a ship I fight and sink or something. But folks kept insisting I remember stuff I'd read, and I remembered seeing the item mentioned in a shop. So I investigated, and it cost me my chance at actually progressing one of my officer's storylines any time soon.
Gregg Johnson wrote:
If the Cosmogone and Apocyan hints are too cryptic to solve, then you probably haven't found the locations they reference yet. Because they are obvious. Painfully so.
I do *greatly* suspect that the "obviousness" of these clues are only obvious in hindsight. I posted a link to my map in a previous comment (ctrl+F "imgur"), you tell me if I've found the relevant places or not. (Knowing that I have won't help me, since as I mentioned earlier I can think of multiple locations for both of those.)
The problem is that solving those riddles involves much more than just finding the right port. You have to find the right port AND have the right item or the right skill or the right amount of luck to actually find what you're looking for. Or so it seems. Either that, or every color is only available in the far east, because so far I've covered 3/4ths of the map, and I'm assuming that at least some of these colors are available in ports I've already visited, just locked behind some quest I haven't unlocked yet or something.
Gregg Johnson wrote:
The others, eh... yeah. Peligin might give you an idea, if you've found that location and were paying attention to the description.
Assuming I've found the location, I can think of at least four places that might fit that clue.
If I haven't found the location, I have four red herrings distracting me away from the real location once I do find it.
Gregg Johnson wrote:
That's... not really an exploit, but okay.
It makes no sense for it not to be an exploit.
For example, why will the Admiral give you another mission without you first turning over the results of the last one? And if there *is* a reason for it, why doesn't that reason apply to the time BEFORE you complete the first mission, so you can just pick up three or four fetch quests simultaneously? Why does he seem to know you've finished a mission and is happy to hand over another mission, all the while not actually receiving results for the last mission? It makes no narrative sense. Hence, exploit.
Gregg Johnson wrote:
The nets in London are for defending against torpedoes, not using them, so your lack of forward slots doesn't impede their function.
My lack of aft slots does, however.
Gregg Johnson wrote:
That's not what I'm talking about though. Why bother with a rod or with nets when you have cannons?
Only fish I can fight drop nothing useful, or *always* cost me damage (which then costs me Echoes, etc). Ones I can't fight might kill me, and likely in ways I can't run from (unless I risk fire and death in an explosion, which is just another way of dying). So far I've been surviving through stealth almost exclusively. So apparently those two quests aren't options to me until I get serious upgrades (unless I want to exploit movement mechanics they're supposedly fixing or have fixed and spin in circles for ten minutes pushing 1 over and over again, at a risk of losing my progress and having to do *everything* all over again if I screw up or pick a fight that can't be exploited).
Dewar wrote:
Mt. Palmerston has cheap fuel, and a quest there that I don't believe requires anything special to start. With your map, I would go to Hunter's Keep, optionaly swing through Venderbight, then Demeaux, then Godfall, then Palmerston.
Unf. The Hunter's Keep -> Demeaux trip is long and empty of ports. I *can* do it, though I wish I could afford to do it AND buy two Live Specimens, so I could visit the Chapel while I was up there, but I can't, so I'll try without. But that long, vacuous first leg sorta illustrates what my current problem is with this game: There's so much grindy 'nothing' standing between me and reading the good bits. (The fact that I'll have to take the trip a second time when I can afford the 1000 Echoes is just another example.)
A long voyage here, repeating the same quest over and over again with no change in event descriptions there. A lot of mindless, grinding drudgery. I *was* having fun so long as I was hitting new content, but now that new content isn't really around any more, and I'm not having fun any more.
There even seem to be fun little pitfalls designed to punish you for curiosity, such as the 100 Echo cost of asking about the Drowned Man in Wither.
But thanks for the advice, I'll give it a swing. Maybe I won't go broke doing it.
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Honestly? Yeah, I'm starting to not have fun.
I feel like the content has now reached a point where I have to start 'grinding' something ala an MMO just to experience new content. Either I'm going to have to start making trip after trip of Sphinxstone (reading the same quest description over and over and over again until it *finally* changes, and I had to have someone spoil the fact that it *would* change for me to find out there was a point to doing that), or re-sailing already traveled water to try and figure out which of my already visited ports have something worthwhile waiting at them, or spending the ten+ minutes it'll probably take for me to 'safely' fight something in combat without risking dying. (I'm not even sure I can do that last one.)
And grinding isn't fun.
The first six or so hours were a blast, but things are falling to pieces now, and there's nothing really solid *and clearly achievable* pushing me towards new content. Everything just feels either *just* out of reach, or buried amongst a bunch of already-experienced content, that I'll have to sort through in order to find the tiny bits of hidden material remaining.
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penknife wrote:
That said, what do you think would be helpful in providing new players with more information about what to do (without making the game too easy to be challenging)? And do you think there's a way to make information that's already explicitly in the game (like what the Tireless Mechanic needs to build the serpent-trap) clearer?
A way for me to review previous conversations and/or a way to ask the very people sitting on my boat the necessary questions to refresh my memory about things they've talked about.
An in game journal, perhaps? Something that records shops and what they carry would be nice too. There's just far FAR too many shops and too many trade goods (that the game *explicitly* tells you aren't worth trading, so it's implicitly telling you to ignore them, right up until the point where you realize they're important, and now you've ignored vital information) to keep track of mentally.
A wiki is a bad idea, because it contains information about things I *haven't* seen yet, and the whole point of this game is to enjoy the story and writing, which you can't do if things are spoiled for you. An in game journal that only reveals things you've already experienced? Much less cheaty option, with virtually no chance of spoilers.
(Specifically with the Mechanic, the problem isn't that I don't know what he needs for the trap, it's that there's no in-game connection between what he needs, and the trap's existence. Before you explained that his current quest leads to the other quest that's already visible to me, I thought that they were two entirely separate things, completely unrelated to each other. And I'm fairly certain that when he explained what he needed, he was being cryptic and mysterious, telling me to gather the box/clayman and he'd explain when he got both of those.)
Avian Overlord wrote:
Whoever put the book pages together knew one of the pages (Pelgin) was less scrutable than the others, and included a note. Seen anything that resembles the description? Try poking around there.
"Beyond the gate there lies a sea more sunless"
I can think of at least three locations with gates or things that might be gates, one location with a 'gate-like' structure, one location that MAY (if I remember correctly) have mentioned a gate when I read it (I was busy panicking over being farther from London than I'd ever been before, and in drastically worse condition than I'd ever been before, so I don't remember much. It was the first time I even learned about the 'half-speed at half-crew' mechanic, and didn't figure out why I was going so slow until a tooltip or something explained it), and one part of the map that remember reading in one of the bits of description that it might have a gate in it, but I haven't uncovered the area yet to see.
Not to mention all the places I *haven't* been that might have gates in them.
Each of the places I can think of? Three are somewhat close to each other (I could conceivably look at all three in one voyage), but one is expensive to explore and would likely require multiple (unprofitable) trips, another 'feels' hostile (based on my first encounter with it), and the third may or may not exist. Two others could be visited on another journey, but again one is *crazy* expensive to explore (and would cost enough that I couldn't visit the other), the other I *can not* pass through (already tried, need a ship upgrade). The sixth is almost my third-most visited place? So I doubt that it's it.
So I'm not really sure what to 'poke around', or if I'd be wasting my time trying to do so with my currently revealed locations.
Avian Overlord wrote:
If something has a quality, it's progressing, even if you can't see it.
The game really ought to make that clear.
Avian Overlord wrote:
You'll have more freedom to explore if you get a cash buffer. If only someone needed very expensive things they have a lot of to be moved a short way. Just because its not enthralling doesn't mean it can't help you get there.
If you're referring to Sphinxstone... I still feel like I'd be breaking even on making that trip. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. But the 'profit' isn't that much.
Avian Overlord wrote:
Vanderbligt (or however it's spelled) has another quest you can do. It will take some supplies, but give you a profitable way to learn about the east.
Yeah. I've seen that one. Costs me 240 Echoes, over a quarter of my hold, and I have to hold on to that material until I locate three unnamed locations, potentially putting me into a position where I have something taking up space in my hold for ages to come, space I might need to survive the trips out to explore the areas I need to take the dudes.
And you mentioning that it involves 'the east' makes me all the more certain the game would screw me over in precisely the way I describe.
Avian Overlord wrote:
After all that, how about a nice game of chess. Or a lot of nice games of chess.
Already done it. Chance of success in that chain is now sub 20%? I think?
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 Moleculor Posts: 14
2/14/2015
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Gregg Johnson wrote:
Moleculor wrote:
I don't have an objection to learning a game.
I absolutely have an objection to trying to learn a game that is also simultaneously lying to me and giving me false information. What false information, exactly? Does the tutorial tell you to buy a bigger engine? If so, that should probably be changed.
The stats are lies.
The game educates you that bigger stats are better. In every case, it does this. Pages, Hearts, everything.
Tons of things in the game have stats. Hell, they even have seemingly pointless, unnecessary or obscure stats, such as "Suppression +1" or "A Doctor Aboard +1" or "Obscure Energies +1".
It *particularly* shows a stat called "Fuel efficiency" on one officer AND at least one of the engines.
And anything with a negative effect to stats? It displays that as well, in red, with a negative sign.
The engines? Nothing but positive stats. All in green. One engine has bigger numbers than another engine. Like *all other stats*, this means that this engine SHOULD BE an improvement.
Know what stat the starter engine and engine I upgraded to *don't* have? Fuel efficiency. And that's *established* as a stat that is present on things that change fuel efficiency.
So when an engine says "+1500 Engine Power" you expect that to be a flat out straight upgrade with no alteration to fuel efficiency compared to the starter engine.
It is *absolute bullshit* that people are supposed to somehow intuit that "engine power" is some obscure multi-stat thing that changes multiple aspects of the operation of the ship, especially when one of the things it changes is already established as a separate stat, even not considering that that stat DOES appear on an engine or two (but that just makes it worse).
If I buy an engine, and it has nothing but improvements to the stats of my old engine, and NO listed downsides as stats, it should not have downsides as hidden stats. Deceit through omission is still lying.
This entire time I've apparently been playing on "uber-fucking-hard-mode" because the devs screwed up and didn't LIST stats on the engine that they were supposed to. The game is hard enough as it is. edited by Moleculor on 2/14/2015
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 Moleculor Posts: 14
2/14/2015
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Gregg Johnson wrote:
Moleculor. What does the shop description for the Iron & Misery Company (the one that sells most of the engines) in London say?
That I'll be faster for more fuel usage. Apparently the increase in speed doesn't *counteract* that fuel consumption, and in fact the fuel consumption is WORSE than the speed increase, which isn't explained anywhere. So for a *tiny* increase in speed, I've been burning a *ton* more fuel. Which means that fuel-per-distance is worse (what I would describe as fuel-fucking-efficiency).
That's not explained *anywhere* that I've seen.
The description on the shop *reads* like I'll consume the same amount of fuel (i.e. have the same fuel efficiency, especially since that stat *does not change* between most two engines) per distance traveled, but that I'll consume it faster because I'm traveling faster. Same distance, same fuel usage, faster ship, less time.
Apparently that's not true, and fuel efficiency has some alternate meaning beyond what normal people would expect it to mean.
Especially considering that "fuel efficiency" in the real world is described as MILES per GALLON or KILOMETERS per LITER.
If my fuel efficiency stat isn't changing when I swap out two engines, I should get the *same* amount of distance traveled per fuel unit. If that's not what they want, then the engine should show the reduction in fuel efficiency as a visible stat, not an invisible one.
GerbilSchooler wrote:
I didn't have to intuit this. I read a tool tip on one of the loading screens (where I get a lot of "AHA!" moments when playing new video games) saying that bigger engines have shoddier efficiency.
And for those of us who haven't had that loading screen show up? We're just supposed to be happy with the game hiding vital information such as this? I'm *still* seeing new loading screens. The information in loading screens should be *reminders* of information already discussed or talked about in a manual or a tutorial, NOT brand new vital information never seen before. edited by Moleculor on 2/14/2015
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 Gregg Johnson Posts: 263
2/14/2015
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The description on the shop *reads* like I'll consume the same amount of fuel (i.e. have the same fuel efficiency, especially since that stat *does not change* between most two engines) per distance traveled. Except it really doesn't... that's an unjustified inference. It only says that both of these things will increase, and they do. It also says this is "essential for large slow ships". If you want to infer something beyond what the description says, why not that larger engines aren't essential for small fast ships? Because they really aren't. The effect on the starter boat is much less than on heavier craft.
I'll agree, tentatively, that this could be better explained in game, through the tutorial or the advice for captains book. But at the same time, power is really the most meaningful stat that can be shown. But the game doesn't lie about this, any more than it is lying about the other things it doesn't explain (lamps consuming fuel, etc.) which, while useful to know, can be discovered independent of a tutorial, assuming you aren't unjustly biased against seeing them in the first place, and are paying attention.
edit: Anyway, I think I've said enough in this regard. If I see a simple hint that might help you I may stop in again, but my argumentative side has reared its head a few too many times already. edited by Olorin on 2/14/2015
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 Madmurdock Posts: 25
2/14/2015
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Well, to be honest, I think you need to stop playing. I don't think you're enjoying it and don't think it'll be productive for you to try and push through. Not meaning to sound harsh or mean, but plenty of people have tried to help and none of it has taken.
I will finish with a couple of points though:
The fact that the engine power is green DOES mean it's an upgrade. It has more engine power. If you look under the "Iron & Misery Co." tab in the shop, it says "Bigger engines consumes more fuel". Therefore it's logical to infer that engine power will effect fuel consumption.
The Hunter's Keep chain DOES tell you something is changing. After the second or third visit the text at the bottom literally says, "You are acquainted with the sisters but something has changed". The sphinxstones don't, I'll grant you that, but I don't think it's supposed to be a quest chain anyway. It's something you do when you are heading back to London and have room in your hold and then suddenly, "Woah, story!". I think it's a good way of doing, having a story appear out of a seemingly mundane task, but can understand it if you disagree.
In truth, if you enjoy the game, you'll find a way to get by. I never played the beta, just bought the game on release day and I haven't had the problems you had. So you'll either find a way to keep playing and have fun, or you'll stop. I don't think there's anything anyone can do to help you.
Whichever you end up choosing, good luck!
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