dawest1
Posts: 3
2/9/2015
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Here is a review from one of my favorite blogs about the game:
http://scientificgamer.com/thoughts-sunless-sea/
I think his criticisms are fairly spot-on. Anyone have any thoughts on it?
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
2/9/2015
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From my perspective, yes, it is that grindy. It really does take a long time to work out how to scrape enough money together for simple upgrades, and while experienced players laugh at newbs and assure us that it'll be child's play a few hours in, money is not easy to start with.
I agree with the reviewer's points on permadeath too - I don't think it should be the default for new starters. I appreciate that the game builds on the deaths of the captains that have come before, but when each life can cost several hours and result in no actual life-to-life progress, it hurts. I'd maybe suggest letting players save as they please until they've managed to get a captain to ten hours old, and then recommend the invictus token, for that captain and every one that follows after. But that's just me.
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FogChicken1
Posts: 29
2/9/2015
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RandomWalker wrote:
From my perspective, yes, it is that grindy. It really does take a long time to work out how to scrape enough money together for simple upgrades, and while experienced players laugh at newbs and assure us that it'll be child's play a few hours in, money is not easy to start with.
I agree with the reviewer's points on permadeath too - I don't think it should be the default for new starters. I appreciate that the game builds on the deaths of the captains that have come before, but when each life can cost several hours and result in no actual life-to-life progress, it hurts. I'd maybe suggest letting players save as they please until they've managed to get a captain to ten hours old, and then recommend the invictus token, for that captain and every one that follows after. But that's just me.
To me the permadeath aspect of it is its most roguelike feature, but it requires a particular play style that is not all that intuitive for anyone without roguelike experience. Just like in games like Angband, permadeath tends to encourage new players to play a grindy and risk-averse style. This results in a lot of time invested for not much progress, and when they inevitably do die they feel shattered, and don't want to start over because they have the sense that it was time wasted.
The more interesting and productive way to play permadeath roguelikes (such as Sunless Sea and Angband) is to treat each new character as disposable, take risks, and try to advance as far/fast as you can. That way you learn much more quickly about how the game works, what you can and can't get away with, and how to jump-start a new game and progress the content as quickly as possible. It also tends to be a much more fun way to play - one thing about constantly pressing your luck is that you don't usually get bored.
The problem is that it's far from obvious that this is the optimal way to play roguelikes (I think this is why Failbetter added the hints in the load screens). People also fall into the trap of thinking that time spent on a captain who dies is time wasted (your "no life-to-life progress" comment above). It can actually be very valuable if you've learned a lot about the game and how it works and can use that information to play more effectively next time around (see my comments on http://community.failbettergames.com/topic10125-some-thoughts-on-the-overall-echo-discussion.aspx#post83322 for example).
For people that haven't figured this out or are struggling with it, I think Merciful mode is good to have available. For my part I have never used it and I feel the game is more enjoyable without it. I don't think I am particularly remarkable or gifted and I suspect that if other new players learned to approach the game the way I do, they would have the same experience. This is what I'm trying to communicate with my posts (and I'm sorry if they come across as condescending - it's not the intention). I think that Merciless mode adds to the experience if it's approached right, and I would like more players to enjoy the game in the same way I have. However, I concede that it's somewhat counter-intuitive and not for everybody, as the review and the various threads on this forum demonstrate.
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Shadow
Posts: 49
2/9/2015
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So far, I've managed to explore close to 40% of the map on my first captain, and as a veteran roguelike player, I can discern the following...
Permadeath is definitely a major mark of a roguelike, and while it's true that captain lives in Sunless Sea are a learning experience, it's not necessarily experience which allows the next captain to progress faster. In classic roguelikes, progress is reasonably fast and danger is high, so the knowledge you earn every time you play does help you progress faster as it keeps you alive longer as you ride the game's brisk pace.
And few recent roguelikes or roguelites or roguelike-likes seem to be aware of this necessary balance, let alone pull it off. In some regards, Sunless Sea is ahead of the competition, in that it keeps random "oops you died" situations to a bare minimum, and your fate largely depends on your skill as a player. However, it misses the mark as far as progression's concerned: slow advancement doesn't mesh well with permadeath. Danger isn't particularly high, either. And well, ship and equipment balancing feels considerably off, which puts the whole idea of non-character progression into question.
Essentially, I get the impression the devs had the Fallen London-like bits obviously figured out, but don't know quite what to do with the elements that set Sunless Sea apart from its cousin.
--
In Her Enduring Majesty's Service
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Gowk
Posts: 1
2/10/2015
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The review pretty much sums up how I feel about Sunless Sea. The game is extremely well written and I love exploring the world, but you have to put in a lot of work to get far enough to actually pass on anything meaningful to your new captain, and the beginning of each new captain's journey feels extremely grind-y. After a total of 12h of gameplay and around 4 dead captains, I'm definitely starting to consider turning permadeath off, especially since I've yet to make it as far as writing a will (had to drop a lot of money on a townhouse, since somebody didn't think you could raise a kid in a pub. Bah.) Evading death is fun, and I've found a rather good recipe for human meat for when I'm unaccountably peckish, but – unlike in Dwarf Fortress – failing isn't all too much Fun.
edited by Gowk on 2/10/2015
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