Zero Summer Discussion Thread

I suppose I should stop lurking and actually post.

Hey, I’m Tucker, the other Zero Summer writing goon.

I grew up reading quite a bit of fantasy with a solid mix of classic horror, largely Tolkein, Stoker, Shelley and Wells. In high school I got into science fiction and Bradbury, Gibson, Card and Stephenson joined the others. While I had been involved with it earlier, in college I got solidly involved with tabletop role-playing, which blossomed into a full-formed passion for interactive storytelling. My playlist for Zero Summer includes Murder By Death, The Decemberists, the Bastion Soundtrack by Darren Korb, and a selection of slide guitar music. The influences I’m drawing on directly for Zero Summer is a combination of 3:10 to Yuma, True Grit (the novel) and Kafka, with a handful of Carnivale and Garth Ennis’ Preacher thrown in.

I hope that it’s as fun for people to play as it is for me to write!
edited by T(Jinx)N on 9/9/2012

More comments:

-Why is the fifth card of the Hallowed Ground story (To Serve and Protect) unlocked by the required stat itself, instead of the branch being locked like in prior cards?
-“Earning Trust” result of the “A Star-Shaped Shield” card: "That’ll be him, says the deputy with satisfaction. – missing the endquote.
-The “Where There’s a Will” branch of the Doc grind card sounds like it should test Gunslinger rather than Doc.
-Ditto for “A Pale Dusty Shroud”.
-In the “Questions For Calo” result of the “Finding Calo” card, one bit seems awkwardly worded: […]start to look the same, all of them dirty trash-strewn and alive with a patient unseen jungleish hostility. I believe there should be a comma after “dirty”, or something. Also: It must be her: the only person you’ve seen[…] It sounds like it should be something like “she’s the only person…”
-It would be helpful to have something like the reminiscence feature in FL, as I tend to forget exactly where I’m supposed to go next.
-“Operation Support” branch of the Gunslinger grind card: […]often squirrel away guns, bullets and heavier ordnance. You’re missing a comma after “bullets”.
-“Buried Treasure” result of the Gunslinger grind card (rare success at level 9): […]a hundred yards from the Pony Express office which once broken open reveals[…] There should be commas surrounding “once broken open”, I believe.
-Do you need multiples of the rare success items/qualities to pursue their associated miniplots?

And I’ve run out of actions trying to get some rare successes. I’ll make another post tomorrow, if I have time.
edited by Little The on 9/9/2012

DIRECTED FEEDBACK FOR DAY 1/MORNING
(although as always we’re happy to hear whatever feedback you have in whatever way you want to give it!)


1.) Did you play through the game in Opportunity or Pinned mode? Why did you choose that mode? Why did you like it better (if you did)?

2.) Which of the subplots did you choose? What did you like about them? What would you have liked more of?

3.) There are several places where “Must” cards are used, most significantly during The Ministry of Black Powder. Did you find the “Must” cards enhanced your experience? Or did they detract from it?

4.) Balancing Zero Summer between “too grindy” and “not game-y enough” has been a challenge. Did you feel the mechanics properly supported the narrative, or did the mechanics get in the way?

5.) It’s also been a challenge to balance Zero Summer between “too wordy” and “not enough details.”* Did you feel like the game was too wordy? Or too light on descriptive details?

6.) What plot points did you like best? What would you like to see more of? What didn’t you see that you were looking forward to?

7.) Have you won any money at Tall Saul’s? Because I know a certain design team who could really use some NorteAmericano dollars. You know. For design team stuff.

* Also balancing between “finishing the damn storylet already” and “maybe a fourth adverb is what this run-on sentence really needs.”

Directed Feedback Time!

Possibly minor Spoilers.

  1. I ended up playing in Pinned mode for most of it. I chose it because that’s what I started in. I felt it let me have a bit more control in how I went about doing things (Okay Grind stats first, hoping for rare success and Then Storylines). I just found it a bit more convenient. Theres also the fact that I first tried Opportunity mode after finishing grinds in two styles so that might have something to do with it.

  2. For sub-plots I ended up going with Harvestmen and Hallowed ground. In “Harvestmen” I liked the mystery element, as well as how you got a flash of memory near the end to help lead you on. I felt it added an extra layer to it, and left me wondering about the Protaagonist’s previous occupation. I’d like to see more direct battles and confrontations in the future (much like the John fight in Black Powder) as opposed to merely being on the fringes of their operations.
    As for Hallowed Ground, I liked the way the group was portrayed. (without spoilers, I found the reverence displayed oddly unsettling) I also liked the end choice, and how it wasn’t just black and white. I’d like to see more choices of that nature in the future.

  3. I liked the use of must cards, it made those situations seem like real conversations. After all, You wouldn’t just walk away from someone in the middle of a conversation, now would you?

  4. I think the mechanics worked just fine. I went grinding first and felt it advanced at a decent rate. I suspect it would’ve advanced faster if I wasn’t insistent on continuing the low risk challenges in hopes of acquiring a rare success. That’s all on me though.

  5. I fell it might have been a bit too wordy. The details are all there but there seems to be an abundance of unbroken walls of text that I’m not certain everyone will be willing to read through. I think if they were a bit more broken up and not all bunched together it might help immensely. An example would be the paladin option for one of the later doc grinds, where the result text feels more open then a lot of the intro paragraphs, despite being almost as in depth.

  6. I liked the insights into The Protagonist’s mind that we saw during Black Powder. I’m also extremely interested in what the door opens for me and the circumstances surrounding it, as I have expressed earlier. I’d love to see more of that in the future. Of course all the rare success qualities and items that haven’t opened anything yet intuigue me.
    As for what I didn’t see, I’d like to see more direct interaction with the members of the jackrabbits. We got to speak with Padre but what of the others? I’d like to get to know my new housemates a bit better.

  7. I have indeed won some money, Unfortunately I get the feeling it’s the kind only useful in the right place. On the other hand, I have gotten a few NorteAmericano’s elsewhere that I could part with if the design team Really Really needs them.

Typo?: During Hallowed Ground, in the storylet where you meet Sermon, there’s this text:

“There’s not a gentle bone in Sermon’s body, but genuine she’s got in spades. And it extends, that generosity, to everyone under the roof.”
Perhaps you meant ‘generous’, not ‘genuine’?

In the Hallowed Ground plot, in the card “A Star-Shaped Shield”, the text reads “And this ain’t the first time Sermon’s refuse to hand somebody over”. Unless this is intentional because of his accent, it should read “refused” or “refuses”
In the same card “These are not people who the law has helped in the past”, should be “These are not people whom the law has helped in the past”
In the “A country doc” card in the rare success (I think) of the “A pale dusty shroud” option “You won’t beat the storm, which you can feel getting thicker every moment, but you might get stay on the edges” should probably read something like “but you might manage to stay on the edges”

That’s it for grammar. now for some impressions. (may contain spoilers)
I’ve done the Harvest and Hallowed ground plots, which seems to be what most people are doing.
I think this has a lot to do with the fact that they are the most easily accessed, since you don’t need to change locations for them. maybe it’ll be a good idea to somehow make the others more obvious.

The 2nd thing I’ve noticed, is that it’s sometimes hard to know where to go next. for example, I followed the deacon to the train station, and the rest of the plot wasn’t there.
Now, I assumed that I have to grind stats to continue, but that’s not something that will be immediately obvious to everyone. I know you want the card to autoproc as soon as you enter the train with the required stats, but maybe you can make it visible even before that? that way, people will know that they have to stat up before they can go further.
edited by Tamir Buchshtav on 9/10/2012

-“Deacon” shouldn’t be capitalized unless it’s being used as a pronoun, as it’s a common noun.
-Also, hm…“Francis’s” is technically grammatically correct, but nonstandard. Most people simply omit the second S and just add an apostrophe when discussing possessives with words that end in S. So it would be Francis’, for instance. This is one of the very few points of grammar that comes down to personal choice; choose what you think looks better.
-Huhwha? Maybe I’ve spent too long away from the game (not likely, since it’s only been a day), but in the Hallowed Ground story, [color=#ffffff]when did I see/get a map[/color]? The last thing I remember, I was about to [color=#ffffff]chase down a fugitive[/color]. I feel like something’s missing.
-Oooh, are you actually emulating a turn-based battle system using StoryNexus? That is awesome.
-I like the final branches of the Cityslicker grind! Not only because you offered a Paladin/Man-in-Black choice, but I also felt the story in them was amusing and pretty interesting.
-I completed Hallowed Ground! I was kind of disappointed by the final choice, though. [[color=#ffffff]The “turn it over to the authorities” option is presented as a reasonable choice, and I chose it because I place a high value on law and ordered society. I’d like to make a donation to the Mission, but the goods aren’t mine to use at my leisure. They should be returned to their rightful owners. But when you take the lawful option, it’s heavily, heavily implied that they just take it for themselves, so what was the point? I feel like I was played for a fool! D: I did feel conflicted because I didn’t entirely trust the Roughriders in the first place. I should have gone with my gut instead of my head. ;;[/color]]
-I also completed Harvestmen, though it was hard to figure out where to go because the card was a Must, and therefore “hidden”, kind of. I guess the requirement was 14 in one of the qualities? I felt the ending was kind of…unsatisfying. It didn’t really conclude or wrap up anything (though it was suitably creepy). I assume it is merely the beginning of a longer plot?
-The Patches storyline…I chose to [color=#ffffff]return him to the woman[/color], because I couldn’t seem to find any of the “better deals” mentioned. Presumably you’re saving it for a later chapter? I really hope I didn’t lock myself out of some juicy content… ;
;

Alright, looks like I completed it! That was one heck of a ride. And it was just one third of the first day! How epic is this project going to be? It doesn’t seem like I can pursue any of the miniplots, though, despite having 3 in one quality (Seer of Rabbits). How high do they need to be? And what’s “The Postmaster’s Right Hand”? o_O

Anyway, questions!

Pinned. I don’t really like the opportunity card system much at all, to be honest, mainly because I hate luck-based mechanics in general. I like to always have all of my options available to me, and to have the power to choose what I want to do, and when. I do think it enhanced my experience, overall, even if I probably did end up blowing most of my actions on the grind cards trying to get those elusive rare successes. But hey; at least I was able to do them repeatedly! I think it would have been very frustrating if I could only do one at a time.

[quote]2.) Which of the subplots did you choose? What did you like about them? What would you have liked more of?[/quote]
Harvestmen and Hallowed Ground, as you probably already know from my feedback. I chose them mainly by process of elimination – I didn’t want to get involved with the shady criminal underworld, so I gravitated towards the other options. Harvestmen sounded interesting – I like a good mystery, and I felt that solving this one would be the moral thing to do, if it meant stopping serial killers. Like I said in the feedback, though, I felt it didn’t really go anywhere. You spend a lot of time dallying about trying to catch even the slightest trace of them, and then it just…ends. I don’t feel much closer to finding them; it seems like I’ve figured out some things about them, but not how to actually stop them. It also doesn’t end with a choice like Hallowed Ground does. In sum, it just feels kind of…incomplete. Though if it’s part of a bigger plot to be continued in the future, that makes sense.

Hallowed Ground I definitely liked. I do believe strongly in the importance of charity organizations, helping the poor and weak, so I was glad to learn about such a thing in Amarillo. It was interesting to explore how it worked. Like I said, my only gripe is that I felt I was conned into picking the “wrong” choice at the end.

[quote]3.) There are several places where “Must” cards are used, most significantly during The Ministry of Black Powder. Did you find the “Must” cards enhanced your experience? Or did they detract from it?[/quote]
Ohyes, I loved them. They really helped me immerse myself. It was, well, gripping! I feel it really underlined the importance and urgency of certain things. In FL, I do feel it’s kind of jarring to be booted out of reading and forced to click a button so I can continue – here, you just string the scenes together seamlessly. It’s great. Like I said, reminds my of Varytale, which I love.

[quote]4.) Balancing Zero Summer between “too grindy” and “not game-y enough” has been a challenge. Did you feel the mechanics properly supported the narrative, or did the mechanics get in the way?[/quote]
I don’t think it’s nearly as grindy as Fallen London. Possibly this will change later, but I felt I was able to grind my qualities up to the necessary levels pretty quickly – and you introduce new branches into the grind cards frequently enough that the individual stories don’t overstay their welcome (plus, there are the rare successes). Same for the “boss battle” in the main storyline – it felt a bit grindy at first, but you added new cards frequently enough and gave enough CP in the grind options for me to finish it up quickly enough. The only one I think may have been a problem was chicken chasing in Hallowed Ground – at 1 CP/action (I think?), it does take a while to get to 4. Maybe lower the requirement to 3? Overall, though, I think you did excellently on this.

[quote]5.) It’s also been a challenge to balance Zero Summer between “too wordy” and “not enough details.”* Did you feel like the game was too wordy? Or too light on descriptive details?[/quote]
I did feel it was a bit wordy in places, but I didn’t mind too much. When your medium is purely text, it’s generally a good idea to err on the side of too much words rather than too little, I think. Your world is very detailed, and it’s important to give readers details so they can understand everything clearly.

[quote]6.) What plot points did you like best? What would you like to see more of? What didn’t you see that you were looking forward to?[/quote]
The Harvestmen, definitely. Also, what is up with the rabbits? And whatever eldritch creatures we encountered in the Opening…though I presume the main story is headed in that direction anyway, since it seems like [color=#ffffff]the holy pistol MacGuffin thing is a weapon against them[/color]?

[quote]7.) Have you won any money at Tall Saul’s? Because I know a certain design team who could really use some NorteAmericano dollars. You know. For design team stuff.[/quote]
I got a blue chip from that card. No dollars, though I do have 5 of those from other sources.

Has anyone met His Graciousness for tea?

So this is where I’ll respond, as the writer for The Harvestmen. I can say, without giving anything away, that The Harvestmen subplot is set up to last for multiple days. The first morning is just to give you a taste of what the people of Amarillo know (or at least THINK they know) about the group, and to give you a first-hand glimpse of what they are capable of.

I am SO GLAD that you are enjoying it!

Bug: when Arranging an Illicit Transfer, Grease the Wheels’s success has an unclosed em tag.
Edit: when making the Maltese Tiger Run, the root text contains this: The whole thing looks like well-organized rabbit burrow. It should probably be: The whole thing looks like a well-organized rabbit burrow.
edited by Kadir on 9/11/2012

Okay, now I’ve finished Cutting your Spurs and I can’t play any more cards. Is this intended?

1.) Did you play through the game in Opportunity or Pinned mode? Why did you choose that mode? Why did you like it better (if you did)?
I played through pinned mode and opportunity mode, though I only really played opportunity mode before I was supposed to. Opportunity mode definitely has it’s advantages however it makes stat grinding more difficult and with your action refresh you never ever run out of actions with it. Pinned has an accessibility about it which I quite like. I’m leaning towards what you have for pinned mode except maybe with some ‘opportunity’ cards that are more flavour then story or advantage maybe? I really don’t know, maybe multiple action moves? I ended up going for the pinned mode as it was easier to see what was going on the in Opportunity mode, as I had trouble finding someone when I did my last run through as I didn’t know which suburb to rummage through cards for them so this was nice.

2.) Which of the subplots did you choose? What did you like about them? What would you have liked more of?
I chose Harvest-men and Hallowed Ground. Mainly due to how I imagine my own character, more wit than brawn or charm. I liked the hints dropped in here and there, though at times I felt some of the storyline felt a bit grindy, I’m looking at the whiskey boys and John here. As if you had grinded first(to increase the odds of getting those rare items) you are just sitting around doing straightforward challenges to grind up a quality over 20ish actions. Maybe some more high risk options would be nice to speed the quality grind.

3.) There are several places where “Must” cards are used, most significantly during The Ministry of Black Powder. Did you find the “Must” cards enhanced your experience? Or did they detract from it?
Must cards are good, however I found myself now and again running out of actions midway through a must scenario meaning I had to reload the page when an action refreshed to be able to pick the option, maybe a one action boost in actions that lead you into a ‘must’ zone? Though they definitely enhanced the experience and gave parts of the storyline a lot more flow. Which is good as I still found myself getting lost and using seven actions here and there to find out where the next step in the story was.

4.) Balancing Zero Summer between “too grindy” and “not game-y enough” has been a challenge. Did you feel the mechanics properly supported the narrative, or did the mechanics get in the way?
The general mechanics were good however they may need a few point adjustments here and there. Maybe whilst looking up your leads on certain trails some sort of clue system which can point you the way to the next district for your quests?

5.) It’s also been a challenge to balance Zero Summer between “too wordy” and “not enough details.” Did you feel like the game was too wordy? Or too light on descriptive details?
It was a good level of wordy for me. The writing isn’t Shakespeare but it doesn’t bore me to tears and it mostly conveys everything I need to know.

6.) What plot points did you like best? What would you like to see more of? What didn’t you see that you were looking forward to?
THE UNIVERSITY! Ahem I’m wanting to see where these connected qualities come in use.

7.) Have you won any money at Tall Saul’s? Because I know a certain design team who could really use some NorteAmericano dollars. You know. For design team stuff.
I really really wish I did. :P As much as I love your work I recently got a frightening phone call which sticks me roughly eighteen thousand in debt. In other situations you would have gotten at least some sort of money from me, and when my situation stables out you will see some money from my direction. :)

This is an important catch. It turns out unclosed HTML tags can cause horrific bugs, so we’re trying to root out any stragglers. Please let us know ASAP if you find any.

That’s my bad; the second Metropole card doesn’t return you to the Amarillo setting. I’ve fixed the problem and set you up with a card to get you back to Amarillo proper. Thanks for the report!

Continuing effusive thanks to everyone providing us with bug reports, typos, and feedback! I’m murdering the bugs and typos as we go, and this process is greatly facilitated by your input. Lless time hunting textual errors is more time to write new things.

Thank you everyone for your wonderful, insightful, detailed feedback! I’d like to take the time to address a few non-typographic feedback points below.

All of the Areas have specific cards assigned to them. But some of those cards are also subplot specific. For example, only Hallowed Ground has cards tied to The Mission at this point, while only Cutting Your Spurs has cards tied to the Scrublands.

This is also a case of us not having time to completely flesh out the world yet. E.g. the card(s) which will use Connections: Highrise Hotel aren’t in yet.

We’ve actually got something planned.

I’m not surprised that most of you preferred to play in Pinned mode; right now, Actions are cheap and easily refreshed, and Pinned mode gives you more granular control over what each of your clicks does.

Going forward, we intend to release a set of Opportunity cards based on the Ally Qualities. These will proc at half the rate of the three grind cards (as will The Skunk Brothers Farm). Each Ally card will provide ways to advance your Styles, gain additional Connections, reduce your Menaces, etc. Our goals are to 1.) bring the Opportunity and Pinned decks closer in terms of Style-gains-per-Actions-spent and 2.) add a lot more randomness into what you get from any given Action spent on the Opportunity deck. Our hope is that eventually the choice to spend Actions on Opportunity draws or Pinned cards will be based on whether you want to (at any given moment) advance the plot or futz with your Qualities.

Bad news: Zero Summer is gonna stress you out. You aren’t intended to see more than about 75% of the game on any given playthrough.

But fear not: we have plans to include a “New Game +” mode, which will include (for example) unlimited access to all the grind branches. It might also give you a chance to right certain wrongs which occur in the course of your first playthrough…

No.

Oh, there will be more. Don’t worry. :)



That’s very sweet of you! You’ll be the first person we contact when Nex-locked content rolls around. ;-)


[quote=Tamir]I think this has a lot to do with the fact that they are the most easily accessed, since you don’t need to change locations for them. maybe it’ll be a good idea to somehow make the others more obvious.[/quote]

That’s a really interesting point. But I think my conclusion is different than yours: it tells me we should make the Harvestmen and Hallowed Ground harder to get to. ;-)

The relevant Storylet was Key of Dreams-locked (and shouldn’t have been). My bad. Players with The Ministry of Black Powder 11+ will now be able to play the card which raises this Quality.

Zero Summer will likely get less grindy, not more. We’re targeted at a specific number of Actions per segment. The amount of grind will stay the same (or actually be reduced as we incorporate more content parsimony structures); the only change will be how fast your Styles go up.



:)


[quote=Samuel Goodall] I found myself now and again running out of actions midway through a must scenario meaning I had to reload the page when an action refreshed to be able to pick the option, maybe a one action boost in actions that lead you into a ‘must’ zone?[/quote]

That’s a fantastic suggestion; I’ll strongly consider it.

Yikes! I work with a large non-profit which handles (among other things) helping people rebuild their credit and handle debt… so I wish you all the luck in the world. My experience has been that it’s always easier to negotiate down from debt than most people think, and that paying debt back – or getting on a payment plan that will keep your credit from tanking – is easier than it might seem. So don’t get discouraged! I’ll be rooting for you. :)

Am I seriously confused or does it not actually tell me my current location anywhere? It tells me when I move to a new location, but it would be nice to know where am I starting so I don’t check the same place twelve times looking for the next part of a story…

Sorry if that sounded super whiny, I am sure I am just being silly (or oblivious), I am having quite a bit of fun with Zero Summer, and that is the only thing I have noticed as being problematic so far.

There’s currently no way to display your Area. But I think you’re right: there should be. We’ll digest internally and implement a solution. Thanks for the feedback! Very pleased you’re having fun. :)

At some point down the road, ideally when we get the rest of our customization options, we will be able to have pictures for each area. According to the road map anyways… :-D
edited by Kitsune on 9/12/2012

Result text for the second branch of the “The Afternoon Special” card: […]author of the Star’s popular "About Town column, off on a ramble about[…] Missing an endquote there.

Other than that, looks nice. I assume she will be an important character later on, and this is foreshadowing? Intriguing.

Edit: Oh, also, success branch of “Fuel for the Mash”: […]according to Lloyd is grown, tended and harvested exclusively[…] There should be a comma after “tended”.

Hm…also, the fail branch for “Wallet Lost”. At one point the toothy banker says, “See how it took?” Given the context, I believe that should be, “See how long it took?”

Sounds like a great idea! Generally, it seems like it’s wise to separate pinned and opportunity cards into two distinct roles. Also nice to know that I won’t have to slog through opp cards if I want to continue the plot.

Nooooo… ;_;

…Oh okay then, that works. : )
edited by Little The on 9/12/2012

CLOSED BETA TESTERS: the next time you log in, a Must card will fire. It will set your Location to 1. Going forward, the Location MajorLateral will display your current Area. The card “Rules of the Game: Time” will also set your Location to 1, meaning the Location Quality will be handed out as SOP going forward.

Also note: I’m 100% positive I’ve forgotten about a card or two in Day 1/Morning which moves you around Amarillo but does not at this time reset your Location. Don’t worry – the game is built to fix this. If you find yourself in that situation, just use the Travel Around Town card to get yourself back on track. But please also report the problem card. What a silly, silly bug.

Thanks to @Katherine for getting us started on this great improvement!

Everyone else: please disregard. :)