The Electoral Debate (Forum Version)

Might one suspect that to keep the Devil’s out the Bishop might build a wall?

I’m just saying that there are similarities.

[quote=ExcArc]Might one suspect that to keep the Devil’s out the Bishop might build a wall?

I’m just saying that there are similarities.[/quote]
Yeah but most immigrants aren’t actively looking to take your soul, unlike devils (though some people forget that in FL and RL)[li]

[quote=Grenem]Yes. She worries me because someone who will knowingly poison people for a bribe and blackmail customers who almost certainly paid for discretion, or assumed they did is not someone i trust more than a known revolutionary moderate. She will let you think you bought them- selling you a kiss and poisoning her lipstick, selling services with an implicit promise of discretion, if not an explicit one, considering this is mr. wine’s business- without ever selling them, and i have no way of knowing if she’s pulling the same trick here.

She has backstabbing tendencies, and expects not ot be shunned for her job, yet treats it with all the honor of the shunned prostitutes, as opposed to the substantial discretion of the rest of the parlour.[/quote]

As I said, that is the problem with seeing loyalty as something to be bought rather than something to be earned. I would rather have a public servant who is a backstabbing prostitute than one whose silence can be bought.
edited by Kaigen on 7/8/2016
edited by Kaigen on 7/8/2016

[quote=Kaigen][quote=Grenem]Yes. She worries me because someone who will knowingly poison people for a bribe and blackmail customers who almost certainly paid for discretion, or assumed they did is not someone i trust more than a known revolutionary moderate. She will let you think you bought them- selling you a kiss and poisoning her lipstick, selling services with an implicit promise of discretion, if not an explicit one, considering this is mr. wine’s business- without ever selling them, and i have no way of knowing if she’s pulling the same trick here.

She has backstabbing tendencies, and expects not ot be shunned for her job, yet treats it with all the honor of the shunned prostitutes, as opposed to the substantial discretion of the rest of the parlour.[/quote]

As I said, that is the problem with seeing loyalty as something to be bought rather than something to be earned. I would rather have a public servant who is a backstabbing prostitute than one who’s silence can be bought.
edited by Kaigen on 7/8/2016[/quote]
But her loyalty was bought, for quite some time - she has worked under Mr. Wines long before the elections, and she has kept the confidences of her clients for quite a while. Until she saw potential profit in betraying them. Honesty isn’t accepting a bribe and eventually betraying your briber, honesty is not accepting the bribe in the first place. You yourself acknowledge that her conduct can be described as ‘backstabbing’; What, then, makes you so sure our own backs won’t one day feel the prick of her stiletto?

Do we debate in character…?
I’d say Fallen London and Sunless Sea are pretty happy-go-lucky about blackmail, given both the Influence and Rumour category.
Also, I’m convinced of the importance of even surface rhetoric in shaping minds, mores, and norms \o/ Jenny’s at least saying that she doesn’t want any particular group in the Neath to be harmed. And so, in the spirit of the candidate I chose, I’d rather endorse her, since I see the meta powers-that-be are supporting the Contrarian (given the image for choosing a candidate. and how the Contrarian is so much more of a flip-flopping puppet than the other two candidates)
[li]

[quote=Angus Turner]What, then, makes you so sure our own backs won’t one day feel the prick of her stiletto?[/quote]There are no guarantees. But if we assume that each candidate will continue to behave in the manner they have heretofore (always a fraught assumption), where does that leave us? The Bishop can be counted on to do the wrong thing for the right reasons. The Contrarian can be counted on to cheerfully do nothing, to the very real detriment of those who interact with him. Jenny can be counted on to…turn her back on the Masters and extort the rich? That doesn’t seem like a difficult choice to me.

I find I must investigate the Bishop more, given what I have heard regarding his positions here. I doubt it will change my opinion, but I do not wish to wrong him with mis-statement – for I had thought him for a new war.

That is a very, very narrow view of things. You can use the same argument to claim that we have no reason to fear a murderer. After all, if he continues behaving the manner he has so far he will…murder his victim? The victim is already dead. Nothing to worry about, surely.
You look only at the act, and not at the principle which guides it. Sinning Jenny peruses her goals - betraying those who gave her their confidence is considered acceptable in achieving her ends. Which of Jenny’s past actions convince you that those goals include the welfare of the city’s poor? Where has her deep concern for the destitute been before caring for the poor was a possible avenue to power?

And by the way, saying The Contrarian never does anything simply isn’t true. Besides meeting him at the party, we can interact with him in two storylets, the revolutionaries card and the story of The Affluent Photographer. In both of those stories he is acting in pursuit of a very concrete goal. The counterargument to that is that he’s working towards contradictory goals in those two stories, but the counterargument to that is that his ideals have nuance to them, as investigating his campaign clearly shows.

I think Sinning Jenny would be bad for London. It’s rather notable that our investigations and flash lays uncover plenty of information about the Contrarian’s well intentioned third way, but not an iota of information about Jenny’s plans to help the common people. What we find instead are intrigues, blackmail, and power struggles at all levels of her campaign. She doesn’t seem to have any greater cause than her own ambition and maybe monster hunting. Her declarations of being for the people seem like nothing more than melodramatic acting from an overly dramatic performance artist.

(From Bag a Legend, wasn’t she only here to liaise with Mr Wines - I remember her saying that she’s always been part of the Sisterhood. The stab-a-master and the Bazaar-can-go-hang Sisterhood.)[color=#c2c2c2] [/color]

True. Like I said, I don’t doubt her loyalty to The Sisterhood. I am merely pointing out that acting in the interests of Mr. Wines, when that served the purposes of The Sisterhood, was not a problem for her. Consider this: has she ever used her position to help the needy? Has she ever used her position to serve The Sisterhood? She will similarly serve the people of London only so far as it advances their plans.

We all are the rich. She poisons player characters during the feast of the rose, as much as she leads us vakewards. If she continues as she always has, she will continue to harm us randomly when we interact with her in a professional environment. Any reliable interaction will continue to have constant chances for backstabing, while irreliable interactions will find her modestly helpful at best.

I’d prefer the person who has neither poisoned me [without a refund, as a refund would have made it quirky and fun] nor participated in picking a fight with hell.

[quote=fortluna]Do we debate in character…?
I’d say Fallen London and Sunless Sea are pretty happy-go-lucky about blackmail, given both the Influence and Rumour category.
Also, I’m convinced of the importance of even surface rhetoric in shaping minds, mores, and norms \o/ Jenny’s at least saying that she doesn’t want any particular group in the Neath to be harmed. And so, in the spirit of the candidate I chose, I’d rather endorse her, since I see the meta powers-that-be are supporting the Contrarian (given the image for choosing a candidate. and how the Contrarian is so much more of a flip-flopping puppet than the other two candidates.[li][/quote]
The contrarian is a puppet? The bishop might as well be the church, only more relentless and extreme, and Jenny has only been seen as a member of two factions, one of which certainly is pulling her strings. He’s anti-revolution, anti-bazaar, anti-masters… he’s not flip-flopping, he sees london as it really is- a place filled to the brim with terrible options.[/li][li]
[/li][li]Which isn’t to say that he’s right- but he’s trying to find a way to drink a little of each poisonous option, rather than a lethal dose of any one type.
[/li]
edited by Grenem on 7/8/2016

That is a very, very narrow view of things. You can use the same argument to claim that we have no reason to fear a murderer. After all, if he continues behaving the manner he has so far he will…murder his victim? The victim is already dead. Nothing to worry about, surely.
You look only at the act, and not at the principle which guides it. Sinning Jenny peruses her goals - betraying those who gave her their confidence is considered acceptable in achieving her ends. Which of Jenny’s past actions convince you that those goals include the welfare of the city’s poor? Where has her deep concern for the destitute been before caring for the poor was a possible avenue to power?

And by the way, saying The Contrarian never does anything simply isn’t true. Besides meeting him at the party, we can interact with him in two storylets, the revolutionaries card and the story of The Affluent Photographer. In both of those stories he is acting in pursuit of a very concrete goal. The counterargument to that is that he’s working towards contradictory goals in those two stories, but the counterargument to that is that his ideals have nuance to them, as investigating his campaign clearly shows.[/quote]You raise an excellent point about murder. The Contrarian has killed at least one person simply pursuing the joy of debate. Aren’t you worried you might be next? What makes you sure that won’t happen? The Contrarian has betrayed every cause and every ideal he has ever taken up for kicks and giggles, and you consider him more trustworthy? Jenny might betray us. The Contrarian will betray us as soon as he sees entertainment in doing so.

As for Jenny’s goals coinciding with the welfare of the city’s poor? Who do you think the primary victims of the Vake are? I would call aiding those who hunt the Vake something that benefits the entire city.

The Contrarian has argued, for the sake of debate, in favour and against every conceivable cause. His deeds, however, show that he has a coherent ideology. You can argue that clarity of intent is important in a politician and that one who is willing to consider every side of an issue will make for a poor statesman, but claiming that The Contrarian is some grand betrayer of principles is simply disingenuous. As is the claim that debating a man with a weak heart is murder. Or are you honestly suggesting that The Contrarian is some sort of lunatic seeking to murder the city’s elderly through debate?

As for Jenny and her cause: like I said, there are worse forces in London than The Sisterhood. I have no doubt she will continue supporting her organization’s goals from her position of power, and that is possibly a good thing (though I do hope that, should they succeed, the Vake will not end up like another similar creature that perished). But you think that her motive is concern for the poor? Why? If a man frequently steals prisoner’s honey, do you conclude that he is concerned for the poor? Some are addicted to the thing, after all, and perhaps he’s stealing it for their own good and perhaps he intends to compensate them for it. Or perhaps he wants some honey. Even if ending the Vake is a noble goal that will help the poor citizens of London, there are more straightforward ways of helping the poor, ways that do not harm The Sisterhood’s noble hunt one bit, and she has taken none of them.

Again and again we come back to the fact that all we have to trust Jenny are her words. Beautiful words, promising wonderful promises. But none of her actions support her claims, and many cast her as a rather shady character.

I would endorse the Contrarian in a heartbeat were it not for this “third way” business. I can’t believe any of the three candidates would do what’s best for London, and frankly, a mayoral election won’t change anything anyhow. The Admiralty continues its terrible works. The Traitor Empress still lurks in her palace. The Masters still scheme and betray. Any of these might undercut a prospective mayor even with the best of intentions.

This election, like all democracy, is a disgraceful shambles.

Vote whoever. It doesn’t matter. None of this matters. When the Liberation comes, your Mayor will be cast down from the spires of the Bazaar’s great big space crab corpse alongside all the others who thought to claim power over the workers. There will be a reckoning and the streets will run with fire. There will be an end to light and law, and it will be good.

Vote Contrarian, if you have to vote for someone, if only because his indecisiveness amuses. Certainly he recognizes the futility and absurdity of even attempting this sham of politics. But remember that the only true power lies not in the hands of a mayor or an empress or a star-squid, but in the hands of every worker, zailor, clay laborer, and even every rubbery fellow traveler who allow them to hold the reins.

And remember that any any moment they may change their minds.

[quote=Parabuteo]I would endorse the Contrarian in a heartbeat were it not for this &quotthird way&quot business. I can’t believe any of the three candidates would do what’s best for London, and frankly, a mayoral election won’t change anything anyhow. The Admiralty continues its terrible works. The Traitor Empress still lurks in her palace. The Masters still scheme and betray. Any of these might undercut a prospective mayor even with the best of intentions.

This election, like all democracy, is a disgraceful shambles.

Vote whoever. It doesn’t matter. None of this matters. When the Liberation comes, your Mayor will be cast down from the spires of the Bazaar’s great big space crab corpse alongside all the others who thought to claim power over the workers. There will be a reckoning and the streets will run with fire. There will be an end to light and law, and it will be good.

Vote Contrarian, if you have to vote for someone, if only because his indecisiveness amuses. Certainly he recognizes the futility and absurdity of even attempting this sham of politics. But remember that the only true power lies not in the hands of a mayor or an empress or a star-squid, but in the hands of every worker, zailor, clay laborer, and even every rubbery fellow traveler who allow them to hold the reins.

And remember that any any moment they may change their minds.[/quote]
I don’t want any of your LoN propaganda interfering with this sham of an election, thank you very much.[li]

To our knowledge, Sinning Jenny has never done anything specifically to help the poor, but she has also been under the control of Mr Wines. To quote Bag a Legend!: “‘I don’t care if you know her or not,’ he says. ‘She won’t talk about Mr Wines’ business without my say-so.’” She was not free to aid a Vake hunter, something directly supporting her and the Sisterhood’s goals, without explicit permission. Now that she has cut ties with Mr Wines, she is no longer on the short leash and can do things that conflict with the Masters agendas such as aiding the poor. After all, the Masters clearly aren’t concerned with helping the general population at the expense of personal gain or adversity to foster love stories.

Also I don’t understand this widely-held belief that Jenny is blackmailing her past clients. The only thing supporting this is the outcome of a flash lay, and the writing there is incredibly vague. She seems to be blackmailing someone, but it’s neither specified to be her clients nor secrets from her business. For all we know, she’s blackmailing others with the help of secrets her clients have given or with knowledge accumulated by the Sisterhood.

Plus this is Fallen London. Secrets are a commonly accepted currency; I’m sure the Parlor has been paid in juicy gossip plenty of times. Why are we all assuming these secrets weren’t given willingly?

This thread seems to have vanished from the list of threads, yet remains in existence and displays for me as still being in the Bazaar section. How odd.

Edit: Now that I’ve posted it seems to have fixed itself.
edited by Optimatum on 7/9/2016

I love the religious tone in this. Not actually meant to be sarcastic. I agree with your points, though i would add:

Should the Liberation fail and nothing &quotGo Wrong&quot, then it won’t matter. The position of Mayor will not make a difference between revolt and crushing. When the city falls from the sky and it becomes another nation’s turn to deal with the neath, there will be lacre and death and despair and it will still be better than the one the church would serve.

Should The stars find the bazaar, or the nadir break, we will melt in a puff of law in mere minutes. nothing will save us unless the liberation actually occured.

Should the dawn come forth from over the zee, we will at best do the above, and at worst worship it in awe and service.