Spirifier or Shephard? I can't decide

Fallen London
1

i bought A trade in souls, because i’m interested in the whole topic. But the idea of actually having to participate in it has put me a little at odds I can’t seem to make a roleplaying decision one way or ther other, on the subject. I’m rather fond of hell, and i’d like to continue good relations with them, so on that note the spirifier path seems like the best option

But on the other hand, tricking the weak and dying out of their souls just seems so underhanded, i’m not sure if i want to do that. And being able to help out the regretful soldier is an interesting motivator for picking shepard

But on the other other hand, i am acrtively pursuing a room at the brass embassy, and one of the reasons i wanted the soul trade was to investigate better methods of aquiring souls

I have three hands, i’m odd, i know. But lore and roleplay wise, i seem to be at an impasse here. I can’t make a decision based upon that. I think my interest is more as a neutral observer, than a participant.
This is the point where i’d normally investigate the material and mechanical benefits of each path, and make my choice based on practicality.
But being a fatelocked story, that’s not so easy to do. The wiki has no information at all.

I’m not sure how much information i’m allowed to ask of you lovely people, but i would appreciate any possible guidance in this matter, for right now chronic indecisiveness has gotten the better of me.
edited by Nanako on 1/23/2016

2

[quote=Robin Mask]

I don’t think either one offers anything that isn’t equal in rewards to the other . . .

You seem to be quite aware of what both entail, at least in terms of choices offered, so it may be best to just go with your gut :) It’ll cost Fate to replay, which is a bit of a waste (unless you find you adore the story enough to redo), so you want to make your choice count and be what’s right for you; asking other people, you might regret. I don’t think the mechanics and rewards are substantially different, whereas the stories vary (of course) but the interest they hold to a particular person is incredibly relative . . . what one person may love, you may hate. I can say you won’t lose out, regardless of what you pick, so just go for it! :) You won’t get locked out of any material/items going for one or the other, either :)[/quote]

what about knowledge, and stories. i can’t be certain, but it seems like the spirifier would have a closer observaarion of the process of abstraction, and perhaps the inner workings of the brass embassy, both of which intrigue me greatly

3

I don’t know, I’ve never found being a Shepherd all that rewarding. Other than one person, you don’t really get to help out anybody personally or see tangible proof of the good you’re supposedly doing (if any), and there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of in-game rewards for collecting souls and contracts and turning them in. If you’re really dedicated, you’ll be locked out of some Hell-related content that requires souls as payment (since if you’re serious about your shepherdly duties, you wouldn’t use souls in such a way) and limited in terms of items you can use (I can’t even do anything with all my cool special souls I got from the advent calander, because the soul guy won’t take them). Even selling them for cash seems in violation of the spirit of being a Sheperd.

Meanwhile Spirifers make lots of money performing their craft and don’t seem to be locked out of anything or handicapped by the game in any way.

So, unless you’re roleplaying someone who is very, VERY against taking people’s souls (like me), I’d go with Spirifer.

Of course, I’m a fairly new player and might not have encountered all the supposed benefits of being a Shepherd or heard of all the drawbacks of being a Spirifer, so it’s likely someone who’s been here longer might have a different perspective. But this has been my experience so far.

4

i hear there’s an option to sell souls directly to the brass embassy, which is presumably only for spirifiers? is there any equivilant thing for a shepard?

5

the sheperd has a very good card that clear your menaces and raise some of your connected a lot (of course it has a price

6

[quote=Kukapetal]I don’t know, I’ve never found being a Shepherd all that rewarding. Other than one person, you don’t really get to help out anybody personally or see tangible proof of the good you’re supposedly doing (if any), and there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of in-game rewards for collecting souls and contracts and turning them in. If you’re really dedicated, you’ll be locked out of some Hell-related content that requires souls as payment (since if you’re serious about your shepherdly duties, you wouldn’t use souls in such a way) and limited in terms of items you can use (I can’t even do anything with all my cool special souls I got from the advent calander, because the soul guy won’t take them). Even selling them for cash seems in violation of the spirit of being a Sheperd.

Meanwhile Spirifers make lots of money performing their craft and don’t seem to be locked out of anything or handicapped by the game in any way.

So, unless you’re roleplaying someone who is very, VERY against taking people’s souls (like me), I’d go with Spirifer.

Of course, I’m a fairly new player and might not have encountered all the supposed benefits of being a Shepherd or heard of all the drawbacks of being a Spirifer, so it’s likely someone who’s been here longer might have a different perspective. But this has been my experience so far.[/quote]
did you ever entered in the house of chimes? there you’ll find a story that will be &quotrewarding&quot (for the good that you’re doing not for items IIRC) for sheperds

7

If you’re curious about the mechanic benefits, being a Spirifer opens up the most profitable non-card grind in the game:

You can grind souls in Spite for an average of 60.5 souls per action then sell 1000 of them in Ladybones Road (at any time – it’s not a card) for 3000 Nevercold Brass and two Appalling Secrets. Being a Shepherd, on the other hand, gives the aforementioned opportunity card that has an (expensive) menace-clearing option and can also be used as one of the best sources of Connected qualities (50 each of Church, Constables, and Society for 100 Souls and 10 Infernal Contracts). If you like playing connected conflict cards, this can be a good way to raise various connections over time.

So if you’re planning to save up a lot of money and don’t mind being horribly heartless, Spirifer might be worth considering. If you like being well-connected, Shepherd has advantages (and the way those play out may change even more as Favours are further introduced).

There are also quite a few story-moments that show up around London, although I don’t believe any make a huge difference in terms of mechanics, special items, profit, or further choices – but they do give a different flavor and some more story choice to various episodes, including the bookshop lodgings, the University, and the Discernment Exceptional Story.

8

is going to be introduced the mechanics of the favour to replace connected? (sorry for the off topic)

9

FL is full of situations like that. Sometimes you run into a dilemma where none of the options fit your character 100%.

It helps to think of them as organic character-building experiences. Pick a choice, any choice, and see where it goes from there. That’s how characters grow and change, after all.

10

Yes. It’s the only major reward for being a Shepherd. Other than that, I rarely have trouble with menaces (other than nightmares) and my connections to the Church are already so high I’m half-expecting Christ Himself to invite me over for tea one of these days :P

[li]There is practically NO reward for being a Shepherd. Like I said, don’t do it unless you’re roleplaying as someone who couldn’t look at himself in the mirror if he became a Spirifer.

Honestly, trying to be a good person in this game is SUCH a thankless task. I know Fallen London is set in a nasty world and that most people want to play as a &quotmagnificent bastard&quot type of character, so Failbetter is just giving them what they want, but man, sometimes it really rankles in me being punished over and over for not wanting to play as a jerk while the amoral and immoral characters get ALL the rewards. I wish it was more balanced sometimes.[/li][li]
edited by Kukapetal on 1/23/2016

11

Yes. It’s the only major reward for being a Shepherd. Other than that, I rarely have trouble with menaces (other than nightmares) and my connections to the Church are already so high I’m half-expecting Christ Himself to invite me over for tea one of these days :P

[li]There is practically NO reward for being a Shepherd. Like I said, don’t do it unless you’re roleplaying as someone who couldn’t look at himself in the mirror if he became a Spirifer.

Honestly, trying to be a good person in this game is SUCH a thankless task. I know Fallen London is set in a nasty world and that most people want to play as a &quotmagnificent bastard&quot type of character, so Failbetter is just giving them what they want, but man, sometimes it really rankles in me being punished over and over for not wanting to play as a jerk while the amoral and immoral characters get ALL the rewards. I wish it was more balanced sometimes.[/li][li]
edited by Kukapetal on 1/23/2016[/quote]
i find the menace clear (if you aren’t level capped) really useful now that i’m a PoSI and that the items of the bazaar are nearly worthless now.[/li][li]by the way good joke[/li]
edited by wraith on 1/23/2016

12

To be fair, that’s kinda the point. There can’t be a moral dilemma if there isn’t some actual weight to the choice.

The university is the big one for this, but there’s plenty of stories, especially fate/EF ones where you get the option to ‘sell someone out’.

The whole point of being immoral that you want to have self gain (mechanical rewards) at the expense of others. On the converse, are you really doing a good thing if you aren’t sacrificing anything in the process? I don’t like morality systems that don’t mean anything. Bioshock springs to mind, where the good/evil choice was basically &quotPush A to be good, Push B to be evil&quot. Though truthfully, I think Trade in Souls is one of the bigger aversions to this, as the Spirifer card is still very strong, imo.
edited by Infrasound on 1/23/2016

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[quote=metasynthie]If you’re curious about the mechanic benefits, being a Spirifer opens up the most profitable non-card grind in the game:

Shepherd, on the other hand, gives the aforementioned opportunity card that has an (expensive) menace-clearing option and can also be used as one of the best sources of Connected qualities (50 each of Church, Constables, and Society for 100 Souls and 10 Infernal Contracts). If you like playing connected conflict cards, this can be a good way to raise various connections over time.

are these seperate things, or the same option? which menaces are reduced? Nightmares is the only one i really have an issue with

14

It’s one option that eliminates Nightmares, Wounds, Scandal, and Suspicion while increasing your connections to Church/Constables/Society significantly. There’s also a less expensive option that doesn’t have the menace reduction but will also increase those connections.

15

[quote=Nanako]i bought A trade in souls, because i’m interested in the whole topic. But the idea of actually having to participate in it has put me a little at odds I can’t seem to make a roleplaying decision one way or ther other, on the subject. I’m rather fond of hell, and i’d like to continue good relations with them, so on that note the spirifier path seems like the best option

But on the other hand, tricking the weak and dying out of their souls just seems so underhanded, i’m not sure if i want to do that. And being able to help out the regretful soldier is an interesting motivator for picking shepard[/quote]
For what it’s worth, the Devil’s are all about the underhanded pursuit of their interests and amusement. Sometimes they have tea with absolutely no scheming involved, but most of the time there’s something deeper going on. So, role play wise, if your character wants to get close to Devils then he’ll need to get comfortable with being underhanded and dealing in souls. Now if your character has an out and out moral objection to preying on the weak and desperate, or you think there’s something vital about your &quotimmortal&quot soul, then being a spirifier is probably not for him/her (though it doesn’t seem like your character has any such objections because they’re already neutral?). Of course you could also sell your soul to the Devil’s and have any objections vanish with your conscience, but you probably shouldn’t do that.

16

One other note about the Shepherd path is that it’s one of few ways that lets you raise Magnanimous up to 15.

17

[quote=Infrasound]

To be fair, that’s kinda the point. There can’t be a moral dilemma if there isn’t some actual weight to the choice.

edited by Infrasound on 1/23/2016[/quote]

But why are there only consequences for doing the right thing? You can pick the immoral option at every turn and face no consequences whatsoever and reap constant rewards. If there were different and balanced benefits and consequences for both, it wouldn’t be so bad. Lots of games have morality systems where both paths are balanced. Heck, even the original Bioshock’s morality system was somewhat balanced, since it was essentially &quotbe a jerk for some desperately-needed benefits right now or be a good person for even greater benefits later on,&quot not &quotbe a jerk for benefits or be a good person and have to hop through the rest of the game on one foot while fighting enemies with a slingshot.&quot

18

That’s actually the exact reason why a lot of people have criticized Bioshock’s morality system as not feeling particularly moral at all, and only self-serving. Knights of the Old Republic has some better examples – if you want to “be good,” you can’t prioritize rewards for your self. Being good, in theory (one theory at least) is its own reward.

Re: the Shepherd card, what Sara said is true, but also

there are four options – requiring 50 Souls; 5 Contracts; 50 Souls and 5 Contracts (sorry had this one wrong before); or 1000 Souls and 100 Contracts. The last one eliminates all menaces and gives 500 CP in Church, Constables, and Society connection. The first two gives 50 CP in Church and 25 CP in the other two, and the third – which is the quickest in some ways – gives 50 CP in all three. The last two can max out your Magnanimous at 15.

Connections don’t seem terribly profitable on their own, but you can “fuel” other connections if you are a Shepherd and play conflict cards – for instance, you can shuttle Church to Hell, Hell to Urchins, and Urchins either into Docks, or Widow, or just turn it into Scraps. I believe this is slightly better PPA, all told, than using Connected Items.

19

By the same token, being an unrepentant monster in real life usually ends up costing a person a lot in the long run, even if the short-term rewards are plentiful. Yet there are no consequences for any of the dreadful things you can do in this game. If we’re going to drag real life into this, why are we only applying it to one side? If a good deed should be its own reward, why can’t a terrible deed come back to bite the guilty party in the rear end? Why is it just the good characters who have to suffer for &quotrealism&quot while the nasty ones can live fully in a consequence-free fantasyland? Again, it’s the one-sidedness that bugs me.

If the morality system is going to be realistic, it should be realistic for everyone. If it’s not (and I’d actually prefer this because we’re playing a game, which should prioritize fun over realism) then let me have some cool rewards and benefits sometimes too instead of limiting my opportunities, throwing me out of storylets, areas, and exceptional stories (that I PAID for) and giving me crappier rewards overall.

And just in case I’m coming across this way, I’d like to clarify that it doesn’t bother me that people can be super awesome while playing nasty characters. I’d just like a chance to be awesome too, even if it’s in a different way. That’s all.

20

[quote=Kukapetal]

By the same token, being an unrepentant monster in real life usually ends up costing a person a lot in the long run, even if the short-term rewards are plentiful. [/quote]

Does it? The oil industry seems have been doing pretty well for a while now… tobacco too I think… :)

Are you sure that is not confusing realistic with fair?

Real life is not black and white, which is why I personally don’t see the point in morality systems. That is just a game mechanic to make something feel responsive. Sometimes it’s fun, sometimes it’s plain ridiculous. But it’s always artificial.

I think FL does a very good job exploring grey, it doesn’t tell you if a decision is good or bad but lets you figure that out for yourself. Personally I think it is all the better for it.

I’m not saying you are wrong about Shepherds. I don’t really know, I’ve not played the story. Maybe the do need a reward boost? Maybe a game should be fairer than real life? But that’s a question of game balance not morals. I don’t think that would do anything to make things more ‘realistic’.

For the choice to matter here I think it’s better for it have an actual consequence for the player. Its much more affecting that way, as evidence from people’s responses to it. Isn’t that why people play FL?

As long as the story someone pays for on both sides of the decision is the same quality/length etc. (which from what I’ve seen written about the soul trade, it is) then the consequences need not be equal in any other respect.

What I mean is you have, as you say, been awesome. Not because you got a reward for doing so but because you made a real(ish) sacrifice to do the moral thing. You don’t pray on the innocent and destitute pulling their souls out violently with a fork and sell them off to vain selfish devils for a few pennies.

If it didn’t really matter at all which side someone chose, what would be the point of having a decision?

If a person decides to make that decision on the basis of material reward, I doubt they are going to be able to make a very moral RP choice for their character.

.
edited by Charlotte_de_Witte on 1/24/2016