it’s the only thing the current games discussed, certainly; but not the only thing out there
in Skies, when you go out into the void between stars for the Truth ambition, something out there talks to you, something without a star, dark or bright, to guide it. and the Discordance, the anti-correspondence: there is no evidence it was invented by Liberationists of any kind. even the Halved doesn’t use it, preferring to stay mute or to speak using its emissaries
edited by IHNIWTR on 9/6/2020
Do you have a link for this conversation?
Hm, now that you mention it I remembered something else. Second Red Science upgrade text can be interpreted to say that Correspondence as a phenomenon precedes Judgements and their Laws. Maybe they themselves just discovered it out in the past and used to support their rule?
edited by Aro Saren on 9/6/2020
Venture In, Lookout Into The Dark under Interactions
edited by IHNIWTR on 9/6/2020
Hm. Waif doesn’t strike me as affiliated with either side, more of a wild card.
Nothing about that interaction says Waif. In fact, there’s a whole other branch of choices and options specifically dedicated to the Waif, mentioning her directly.
Whatever is out there in the branch I mentioned has no bearing to resemblance to any of the other gods of the High Wilderness
Even if the interaction doesn’t say the words ‘Waste-Waif’, it’s heavily implied. Abandoned and ruined places are their domain, after all, and the Waste-Waif also controls the coldest winds of the High Wilderness. What place is colder, more abandoned, and more ruined than the graveyard of stars? Not to mention that the Waste-Waif is fully capable of compelling individuals to do their bidding without them even realising it (as per the Empty House), so it’s not a far cry that they could compel you to answer their questions and have a discussion. In fact, it’s even thematic. The Empty House demands visitors, the Waste-Waif watches over you while you sleep in an empty cabin, and the Waif favours the guests who crave interaction and memories, so they clearly seek or value some kind of companionship from time to time, just on their terms. They even keep you company as you freeze to death. You should also note that if you succeed on the sigil check, there is no mention of the Waste-Waif at all. If you fail, there still isn’t any mention of the Waste-Waif in the flavour text, but you gain their attention. The implication here is that it doesn’t matter if they are not mentioned, the graveyard of stars is their domain and they are watching. You’ll also notice that you can only appease the gods on your own terms in places that are personally connected to them: the avid horizon for the Burrower Below, the heart of the storm for the Storm that Speaks, and the graveyard of stars for the Waste-Waif. All these things support the idea that the thing in the darkness is the Waste-Waif, especially in the absence of any meaningful evidence that it is something else.
I don’t think the Liberation is an apocalyptic end. Even if you don’t consider Eleutheria to be a good example of a place that exists outside of the Judgements’ laws, you can always look at Parabola. Parabola is outside of any Judgement’s reach and still exists just fine, even if time and space act a bit weird every now and then.
[quote=IHNIWTR]Nothing about that interaction says Waif. In fact, there’s a whole other branch of choices and options specifically dedicated to the Waif, mentioning her directly.
Whatever is out there in the branch I mentioned has no bearing to resemblance to any of the other gods of the High Wilderness[/quote]
But… it gives Waif’s attention. Also it fits with their overall narrative.
Did you mean Waif only watches, as you converse with something else? Sounds too complicated.
[quote=Mulligan]
Parabola is outside of any Judgement’s reach and still exists just fine, even if time and space act a bit weird every now and then.[/quote]
Aside from the fact that it explicitly does not exist, by definition, and is a mess. What we all visit in our camp and around are the tamest and stablest areas of it.
Well, it’s still possible to live in it, but for some reason Fingerkings really want to leave it.
The catch being Liberation is not limited to Parabola and serpents, with many nasty beings living in existence or in-between, like sorrow-spiders. While Judgements destroy them out of their own selfish interests, lesser beings still can benefit from such accidental protection.
edited by Aro Saren on 9/6/2020
I certainly agree that Parabola is a mess, even a dangerous mess at that, it’s just proof that the Judgements need not exist for things to continue to live or prosper. The reason that Parabola is defined, literally, as something that does not exist, while still existing as a place we can enter, is most likely because the Judgements do not recognise that it exists. It is illegal to them as it is outside the purview of their creation and therefore must be destroyed, but because they cannot destroy it the next best thing is to outlaw and ignore it. Because they are the arbiters of everything in our universe, if they say it does not exist then it must not exist (even though it does).
Regardless, the way Parabola works actually fits quite well into JaneAnkhVeos’ theory that there are a number of ‘natural’ laws that always apply, but the consequences of those ‘natural’ laws don’t really exist. For instance: you can get gravely injured in Parabola, which means that the consequence of being stabbed by a giant bird beak exists, but you don’t die as a result of your injuries. You just tie yourself to something comparably stable and wait to regenerate. So even if the Judgements accidentally spare us some grief by eradicating otherwise harmful creatures in our current realm, there’s the complete possibility that those creatures wouldn’t be as much of a threat if the laws of the Judgements (like the Sapphir’d Kings decree of death) didn’t even exist in the first place.
As for why the Fingerkings want to leave…[spoiler]This is an excerpt from the forbidden play "The Seventh Letter" which sheds a bit of light on the Garden, the Fingerkings (and by extension, the origin and purpose of prisoner’s honey), and the Bazaar’s mission.
ONCE UPON A TIME there was a little snake, no bigger than your finger, who lived behind the mirror. The little snake was very lonely, and the only friends he could find behind the mirror were old memories and strangling roots and the grumpiest bee above or below the world. And so…
[i]
…THE LITTLE SNAKE asked the grumpiest bee in both worlds for help. And the bee said, why should I help? And the snake said, I will give you one-fifth of all I gain thereby. So the bee thought, and he said, in a far place there grows a rose. And that rose…
…THE ROSE, WHICH IS CALLED EXILE’S ROSE, has a property of passage. So shall I brew a honey from its dusts and pollens, and the honey shall be sweet, and it shall bring those who taste it, here to your dwelling. And sometimes they shall stay forever. And the little snake was very pleased with all the new friends the honey brought, but…
ALL THE LITTLE SNAKE’S NEW FRIENDS spoke fondly of the place outside the mirror. And the little snake thought: what if I could walk there among all my friends-to-be? They need not leave. We would be all so very happy. But I may not walk in my own skin. So perhaps my friends shall lend me their skin…[/i] [/spoiler]
Yep, loneliness makes it worse.
As to "natural laws" - fits with what I said about Correspondence and Red Science overcaps earlier.
Also, if you compare all three chess colors texts, and add April’s response, you can see that both pro-Judgements and pro-Liberation sides are very compelled, if not outright brainwashed to their respective causes.
Also, these serpents like to eat Judgement eggs, which can enter Parabola without trouble. Apparently, the ecosystem is much more complex every side wants us to believe.
edited by Aro Saren on 9/6/2020
[quote=Aro Saren]Scenario 2 is no-go: Liberationists extinguish this light too. It was referenced in Skies, iirc.
Well, the rest of the scenario is actually trye, just without light.[/quote]
But how can they? Their bones are marbles, like I said.
Er, sorry, it’s clear I’m missing something, I suppose? The part with bones.