Are there permanent drawbacks to letting any of the menaces reach 8? I want to explore what happens, but not if it will cripple my character in some way, or close them out of other interesting stories. I’m ok with getting trapped in another area and needing to spend a bunch of actions to return.
edited by Harlocke on 4/7/2016
Dying can, if you choose to play chess with the ferryman while dead, give you the Boatman’s Opponent quality - which doesn’t have any significant effects right now, but some folks like to avoid it just in case it does in the future.
Being overwhelmed by nightmares can result in a loss of dream-related qualities.
Being imprisoned can result in a criminal record - I don’t know exactly what that does but I understand it means stiffer sentences if you’re arrested again later.
Being exiled can result in your Hedonist and Austere qualities being changed, but I don’t think there’s any other risks.
It’s worth noting that there are benefits to reaching 8 in each of the menaces, too - sometimes they start stories, and sometimes they’re necessary to progress stories. So, most folks will experience all of them at least once.
A few other details:
Boatman’s Opponent caps off at a high enough difficulty check (I think it’s 300?) that it’s a risky venture. It’s also likely to send you straight to the Mirror Marshes when you return, if you play enough.
You can mitigate some of your Dream losses by having Memories of Light, which moves you to the Mirror Marshes rather than the Royal Beth.
A high enough criminal record also prevents you from using Absolution Solution, leaving you more dependent on other means of Suspicion reduction.
edited by Parelle on 4/7/2016
On the plus side, it gives you access to a cool tattoo when the Feast of the Rose comes around.
I do think it’s worth noting that each of the menace zones is actually fairly interesting in terms of their difference from the tone and presentation of the main game. They also often have otherwise unavailable lore floating about. You won’t incur any permanent damage or lose anything you won’t be able to get back by going to the menace zones, so any stat or item loss is worth satisfying your curiosity, in my opinion at least.
The Criminal Record does several things:
- if you return to jail in future, you will suffer stiffer penalties, including fines, loss of Connections, and if you really keep the habit up, loss of Notability
- at a certain point, Ablution Solution will become completely unusable
- I haven’t confirmed this, but I have heard that getting up to A Wretched Recidivist may even prevent you from using the (very expensive) Connected: Masters option when you are arrested (an instant get-out-of-jail-free card)
Note also that you ONLY get a Criminal Record if you get the ARRESTED! storylet – if you move directly there, from (for example) failing to rob the Brass Embassy, or Seeking content, you don’t get any additions to your Record.
[quote=Jeremy Avalon]
Note also that you ONLY get a Criminal Record if you get the ARRESTED! storylet – if you move directly there, from (for example) failing to rob the Brass Embassy, or Seeking content, you don’t get any additions to your Record.[/quote]
Does using Masters connection avoids gaining advancement to the criminal record?
The text below the Master choice implied that you will not increase your Criminal Record.
Also, from what I have gathered by reading other people post about it, high Criminal Record arrests will lower your Notability. I can’t confirm, though, because I was only arrested once, simply to get the Repentant Forger.
[li]
I remember reading some lore that said if you die in the Neath, that’s what stops you from returning to the surface. If they ever add surface content (if they haven’t already) it would be a shame not to be able to experience it.
What happens if you die but don’t play chess?
edited by Harlocke on 4/7/2016
Then there’s no quality that could be easily used to track whether or not you have died, with the possible exception of A Courier for the Dead.
Yeah, that’s a common concern. For what it’s worth, Sunless Sea has shown us that it’s possible for a long-time Neathizen to be barred from the Surface even if they’ve never died. Oh, and there have been a couple of suggestions in the lore that even folks who have definitely died might still be able to return topside - albeit under unusual circumstances. So, nothing’s certain for now!
[quote=Jeremy Avalon]The Criminal Record does several things:
- if you return to jail in future, you will suffer stiffer penalties, including fines, loss of Connections, and if you really keep the habit up, loss of Notability
- at a certain point, Ablution Solution will become completely unusable
- I haven’t confirmed this, but I have heard that getting up to A Wretched Recidivist may even prevent you from using the (very expensive) Connected: Masters option when you are arrested (an instant get-out-of-jail-free card)
Note also that you ONLY get a Criminal Record if you get the ARRESTED! storylet – if you move directly there, from (for example) failing to rob the Brass Embassy, or Seeking content, you don’t get any additions to your Record.[/quote]
So if I wanted to get arrested, but not get any criminal record at all, would it be good idea to deliberately fail a robbery or a heist? I’d like to get the repentant foger, and explore prison, but also keep my character untainted if possible. And unless, a criminal record of 1 is useful for something.
I’m pretty sure you need to fail robbing the brass embassy specifically, and doing that costs all your connected: hell. So up to you.
[quote=Harlocke][quote=Jeremy Avalon]The Criminal Record does several things:
- if you return to jail in future, you will suffer stiffer penalties, including fines, loss of Connections, and if you really keep the habit up, loss of Notability
- at a certain point, Ablution Solution will become completely unusable
- I haven’t confirmed this, but I have heard that getting up to A Wretched Recidivist may even prevent you from using the (very expensive) Connected: Masters option when you are arrested (an instant get-out-of-jail-free card)
Note also that you ONLY get a Criminal Record if you get the ARRESTED! storylet – if you move directly there, from (for example) failing to rob the Brass Embassy, or Seeking content, you don’t get any additions to your Record.[/quote]
So if I wanted to get arrested, but not get any criminal record at all, would it be good idea to deliberately fail a robbery or a heist? I’d like to get the repentant foger, and explore prison, but also keep my character untainted if possible. And unless, a criminal record of 1 is useful for something.[/quote]
only the Brass embassy failure will send you to jail without gaining criminal record. all others send you there through menace increase, and therefore inflict criminal record. on the other had, it takes a pretty bad menace habit to get criminal record 5- and before that, criminal record isn’t a big deal.
[quote=Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook][quote=Harlocke]I remember reading some lore that said if you die in the Neath, that’s what stops you from returning to the surface. If they ever add surface content (if they haven’t already) it would be a shame not to be able to experience it.
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]What happens if you die but don’t play chess?[/color][/quote]
Yeah, that’s a common concern. For what it’s worth, Sunless Sea has shown us that it’s possible for a long-time Neathizen to be barred from the Surface even if they’ve never died. Oh, and there have been a couple of suggestions in the lore that even folks who have definitely died might still be able to return topside - albeit under unusual circumstances. So, nothing’s certain for now![/quote]
Surface content would be a bit complex, indeed. However, I doubt death would ban players for their Neathiness. Why would Failbetter create an entirely new area with its own content and lore exclusively for a select few players who have never died and are tracked by a quality we’ve never seen before? The Courier of the Dead quality isn’t taken by enough players often enough to be something to ban people from the Surface, so that would be insufficient. While some don’t like playing chess with the Boatman, I feel that it would actually be a benefit. Think about it: by getting the quality, you’ve proven yourself more than capable to go against the laws of the Judgements by returning to life from the hands of death itself. If anything, I think it would allow players to further or better resist the stars’ death sentence due to the built-up resilience to their power, serving as a benefit rather than a penalty. Who knows, though, I could be completely wrong. Or right. Or somewhere in between. Time will tell, I suppose.
Even still, there doesn’t seem to be any reason to attribute death on the Surface solely for those who have died, since it’s been shown that ANYONE can die up there so long as they’ve been in the Neath for an indeterminate amount of time. While the distinction between death and lawlessness of the Neath causing Surface death is muddy at best, we do have a slight knowledge about it. In one of the Exceptional Stories, someone from the Surface had been in the Neath for a short period of time (I can’t remember if it was days or weeks) and was able to presumably return safely after leaving shortly after. However, we’ve seen people who have either been born down here or have lived down in the dark for an extended amount of time who cannot leave because of the lawlessness they’ve absorbed over their stay. This is seen in Sunless Sea, where a variety of backgrounds, ranging from Neath-born players to those who could have come from above, all run the risk of dying on the Surface without ever dying. All we know is that if you stay in the Neath too long or absorb too much darkness during your stay (both being undetermined in the time limit or method to measure lawlessness, if such a thing is possible), you run the risk of eventually dying. Whether it be instant or over years, you will eventually die regardless of your amounts of boat rides, we just don’t know if it plays a factor in it and what determines how long you can last.
My theory is that people die on the Surface due to how unlawful they come (whether from time of their stay or the amount of lawlessness they’ve done I’m not sure), but dying and coming back adds to the risk. You’re literally breaking the law of the gods, thus becoming more of what they’d determine Is-Not rather than someone who is also corrupted by the Neath’s dark but hasn’t gone as far as you have. It’s just a theory, though. Still, I doubt it would come into play should we be able to go to the Surface. There’s just no reliable way to measure your amount of deaths since you technically never have to become the Boatman’s Opponent regardless of your number of deaths, so it would probably only go so far as flavor text rather than anything in actual gameplay that would affect the player.
My personal headcannon is that in the Neath people die from various causes, like alcohol poisoning, illness, etc., and simply fail to notice. Then, when they go to the surface, the universe realizes that they’re supposed to be dead and updates its records.
[quote=Jeremy Avalon]The Criminal Record does several things:
- if you return to jail in future, you will suffer stiffer penalties, including fines, loss of Connections, and if you really keep the habit up, loss of Notability
- at a certain point, Ablution Solution will become completely unusable
- I haven’t confirmed this, but I have heard that getting up to A Wretched Recidivist may even prevent you from using the (very expensive) Connected: Masters option when you are arrested (an instant get-out-of-jail-free card)
Note also that you ONLY get a Criminal Record if you get the ARRESTED! storylet – if you move directly there, from (for example) failing to rob the Brass Embassy, or Seeking content, you don’t get any additions to your Record.[/quote]
So I’ve just finished getting my criminal record as high as possible so I’ll outline what it does to you.
Getting arrested increases your criminal record by 1 cp each time.
-The first time you get arrested is basically nothing, so you can really go to jail once without worrying.
-After that, you being to lose Society and Constables connections each time you are arrested, as well as increase your criminal record.
-Once your criminal record reaches 5, or Wretched Recidivist, absolution ablution no longer works. Also at this level, whenever you are arrested you lose the following things:
1: 10% of all of your echoes and 10% of your rostygold. (The first time this happened to me I was saving up for the overgoat, so i lost around 400 echoes. Don’t let that happen to you too.)
2: You lose 1 Nobility.
3: You lose a ton of connected constables and society.
However, your criminal record cannot get past 7.
Trust me i tried. Hope this helps!
[quote=Jason Weston-Wong]
So I’ve just finished getting my criminal record as high as possible so I’ll outline what it does to you.
Getting arrested increases your criminal record by 1 cp each time.
-The first time you get arrested is basically nothing, so you can really go to jail once without worrying.
-After that, you being to lose Society and Constables connections each time you are arrested, as well as increase your criminal record.
-Once your criminal record reaches 5, or Wretched Recidivist, absolution ablution no longer works. Also at this level, whenever you are arrested you lose the following things:
1: 10% of all of your echoes and 10% of your rostygold. (The first time this happened to me I was saving up for the overgoat, so i lost around 400 echoes. Don’t let that happen to you too.)
2: You lose 1 Nobility.
3: You lose a ton of connected constables and society.
![/quote]
Yikes. Is a character with 5+ criminal record just completely screwed? Is there any way of lowering your record?
And how many cp are there between each level of criminal record?
I’ve updated the wiki with this, except for the loss of “ton of connected” which I don’t know how to quantify.
I’ve been sent there myself a lot. I can tell you it’s multiple levels but less than 10. probably ~200-300 cp, max? quite possibly only 100 cp.
Still not useful enough information, but at least you can say less than 500 cp. I didn’t notice a major increase in the losses, so it could very well be the same amount as the second time you got arrested.