Particular questions concerning the lore

Fallen London
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[quote=Kyron The Wise]Now, my understanding of soul lore is somewhat lacking. If you’ve seen my thread, you can probably guess that my interests lie to the East.

However, here is what I do know on souls, as pertains to devils.

First, it is unlikely that devils are friends to Judgements. This can be attributed to how devils are sourced originally from Parabola. It is known that Judgements despise anything from there, and are in somewhat of a war-state with said dimension. This also makes it unlikely that the Devils are aiding in the Judgement life cycle.

Further, a fun fact. The ‘God’ that is being worhshipped by the Church in this universe is actually a front for Judgements. Given this, we can assume that the Judgements are especially not keen on devils. I seem to recall something about Judgements feeding on souls, but cannot recall where, or if it is in fact true. On point, the devils are techinically biblical devils, but not our biblical devils. They are not firey pitchfork wielding agents of evil. In Mrs. Plenties Carnival, on Beneath the Neath, they playact being such, and can barely keep from laughing. I would describe what they really are, but spoiler tags don’t work too well for me, and OP did desire for no revelation of too many secrets.

Devils are not into the soul thing simply for the sport of it. The fact that there are souls they will reject shows that there is some specificity to what they need. If you have stained your soul, like I have, or have been touched by the Uttershroom, they will be disgusted by your soul. Again, not sure, but devils may feed on souls. Regardless, given that they are seeking specific kinds of souls, or at the minimum not seeking certain ones, it is likely there is some use.

Yes, the Devil/Deviless are in it for Abstraction, taking your soul, but I recall the case of the Absconding Devil had one who attempt to, well, abscond with a woman, rather than take her soul.[/quote]

Gotta throw in my own Q here:

  1. Where is it mention that the Church is a front for Judgement-worship? I don’t remember any exceptions stories that had info on the Church in general.

And some answers:

The only known & confirmed thing that devils do to souls is occasionally burn them in the fireplace. ( http://fallenlondon.wikia.com/wiki/Throw_another_soul_on_the_fire ) The devils themselves reject the notion that they eat them. ( The Wistful Deviless - Official Sunless Sea Wiki text isn’t on the wiki, but she does bring the issue up) Another interesting fact is that the Republic produces the things… somehow. ( Today the Republic inhales bone, exhales souls. Are you here to gather the souls? )

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Beat me to mentioning they explicitly don’t eat souls, and sourced no less (I’d forgotten what the source was)!

Do we know they originate in Parabola? We know they are closer there, and iirc there was a whole thing about them having once dwelled there before some nonsense with the Fingerkings, but living somewhere when man were still apes (or whatever the line was) doesn’t mean they are of it. Especially since they definitively exist in reality and the Is, unlike the Fingerkings (highlighted by the fate locked destiny regarding the Bishop and the Fingerkings). And then there’s all the talk that Nicator gives. I’ve not gotten there in Seeking but have been reading echoes and the wiki, and he seems a devil and talks with desire of a certain Judgement and bringing the light to the Neath. But that could be another issue as he may not be affiliated with hell. Tbh this could be it’s own thread at this point!

The Iron Republic does not need anything to create something; they suffer the tyranny of No laws whatsoever, including laws that dictate something can’t be produced from nothings. Conservation of Energy is a law like any other: meaningless in the republic.

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[quote]
Gotta throw in my own Q here:

  1. Where is it mention that the Church is a front for Judgement-worship? I don’t remember any exceptions stories that had info on the Church in general.

And some answers:

The only known & confirmed thing that devils do to souls is occasionally burn them in the fireplace. ( http://fallenlondon.wikia.com/wiki/Throw_another_soul_on_the_fire ) The devils themselves reject the notion that they eat them. ( The Wistful Deviless - Official Sunless Sea Wiki text isn’t on the wiki, but she does bring the issue up) Another interesting fact is that the Republic produces the things… somehow. ( Today the Republic inhales bone, exhales souls. Are you here to gather the souls? )[/quote]

On Winking Island I believe. Mind you, I’m not saying its a front for Judgement worship. More that God is a front for the Judgements. I don’t believe the Church has any idea. I’ll get back to you when I have a chance to either pull the journal or find out I’m mistaken.
edited by Kyron The Wise on 10/16/2016

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THE HUMAN SOUL: A DIDACTIC EXCURSION
The following is a massively spoilerific analysis of just about everything anyone ever says about souls in FL and SS. Have fun!
(There are a couple conclusions I draw which may be a little iffy, resulting from confirmation bias and all that, so if you have some evidence to challenge them, I’d love to hear it! ^_^).

The Judgements are something like stars (golden, spherical, burning with nuclear fire), and something like angels (many-limbed, terrifying, maintain the laws of the universe), and something like mushrooms (they reproduce through spores). Of course, they don’t spore themselves. That would be unseemly. They forge their spores in the Forge of Souls, and distribute them down the Chain.
Now, for a spore to fruit into a Judgement, it needs to gather… something. We are not entirely sure what. Notable things enrich it, as do especially terrible ones. The soul of a queen, a genius, or a prophet is closer to fruiting than a modest painter or scholar, and their souls are closer to fruiting than a tanner’s. It’s unclear whether society is arranged along a hierarchy of souls, or whether it is advancement in a societal hierarchy that enriches them so.
Of course, things this low on the Chain tend to have short lifespans, and make questionable decisions besides, so most souls would, under ordinary circumstances, never fruit. If one dies with one’s soul in one’s body, the soul is lost. Some say it returns to the High Wilderness, where the Judgements consume it. But there are other ways for a soul to die, too. If one spends too long in places that do not exist, their soul becomes pitted with imaginary radiations, and can never fruit. There are rites, as well, that can stain the soul, and leave it barren. And the Red Science, of course. But that goes without saying. This is all to say that without outside intervention, most souls would never fruit into Judgements.
The obvious solution, then, is to employ a method of pollination. This is where Devils come in. A youngish species, it would seem, the Devils are bee-like aliens, who made their hives on the edge of Parabola only just before the evolution of humans. The Judgements seem to have conscripted them to aid in the pollination of souls, or perhaps created them for that purpose. The Devils seem to resent the Judgements, and often seek to undermine their worship, but also seem helpless to act outside of the Judgements’ will.
The mechanism by which pollination takes place, it seems, is the removal and replacement of souls. It is unreasonable to expect a single person to engage in enough Notable Behavior to bring their soul to fruition. Ordinary humans would certainly die before then, and those in the Neath tend to do something damaging to their souls at the first opportunity. Thus, the Devils seek out individuals with enriched souls, and remove them. These souls are passed between Devils, or hoarded in warehouses and caves, until some community-minded individual recovers them. Usually people seek their own souls, or try to return others’ lost souls to them, but it is rare that anyone ends up with the soul they lost. Souls of the same grade are, for the most part, indistinguishable. Some, to which strange things have been done, have certain… idiosyncrasies, but these are notable in their rarity.
This is why Devils are so preoccupied with the level of enrichment of the soul, and why they maintain such detailed guides to the Notable deeds and reputations of individuals. By this method, one person might engage in a number of notable deeds, enriching their soul. They would then lose this soul to a devil, and it would end up in somebody else, who would then perform more notable deeds, enriching the soul further, and so on, until the soul is prepared to fruit. Devils experience this Law of pollination as a kind of compulsion, to exchange souls faster and faster, raise them higher and higher. They resent it, but can do little about it.

Sources: Mount Palmerston, Frostfound, The Boatman (At Opponent 40), Destinies (Long Road and Wednesday), The Loquacious Vicar, The Soul Trade, The Iron Republic, a melange of Devil-related stories and opportunity cards throughout London, and especially Discernment (there are a few branches available only to Spirfirers that openly spell a lot of this out).
[li][/li][li]EDIT 1: Formatting.[/li][li]EDIT 2: Cut a dubiously accurate theory about Parabola in light of new evidence. Thanks Omega8520! ^_^[/li][li]
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 10/16/2016[/li][li]
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 10/16/2016

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That’s quite a cool analysis. There are a couple of points that I noticed were wrong, though.

Where you’ve said that the Devils are enemies of the Fingerkling, the Order Serpentine medals have them making a deal with each other, in that the Devils teach the Fingerkings how to make Prisoners Honey, and in exchange, get one-fifth of all they gain thereby.
The other one is that, when selling your soul at Hallowmas, they mention A) that since Hell is beneath the skin of the earth, it is safe from the Judgements, and B) (this one seems important enough to quote directly) &quotBut I tell you this: we never rebelled against the Judgements. Not against them.&quot

edited by Omega8520 on 10/16/2016
edited by Omega8520 on 10/16/2016

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Perhaps they rebelled with them, against something that was above even judgements on the great chain.

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Perhaps the deal was made a long time ago, when the Brimstone Convention ruled and fingers had chitin.

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Those are some interesting points, Omega! The Soul-Sale at Hallowmas is one of the few things I’ve never done, so that’s SUPER useful and and interesting info! Thanks so much!! ^_^ I’ll need to spend some time thinking about that!

The arrangement with the Fingerkings is interesting, since the Instrument destiny shows the Fingerkings siding with the Bishop of Southwark to lead an army against Hell. Maybe the Fingerkings realized that now that the Devils told them how to make prisoner’s honey, there’s no reason why they would need to keep paying them &quotone fifth of all they gain thereby,&quot like a kind of outlived-your-usefulness thing? Or maybe the Destiny is just wrong, and they’ll remain friends. It’s only hypothetical, after all.

[li][/li][li]
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 10/16/2016

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Concerning the Parabola Destinies

On siding with the Bishop of Southwark, it says that he bargained for the Fingerkings help. I have no idea what he might have as a bargining chip, but there is a chance that is rather potent.
On siding with the devils, however, The Huntsman says that taking that path helps the Fingerkings &quotAnd the least of it is that it advances my plans here. I have leapt much closer to their consummation, like a piece in draughts making two captures. I’ll be home before Christmas.&quot
I don’t know whether or not these might be indicative of the way things currently are, as the destiny text is quite vauge on the specifics.
I will say, though, that the Order Serpentine medals are written in the manner of a childrens book, where the main character (&quota little snake, no bigger than your finger, who lived behind the mirror&quot) calls the &quotgrumpiest bee&quot one of their only friends. On the other hand, it does refer to those brought over by the Honey also as its friends, and all on the London side of the mirror as friends-to-be, so that may just be an artifact of the form the story is in.

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In response to the above:[li]

The text for siding with the Devils does seem to clinch the idea that they are friends or allies with the Fingerkings. I think your idea about the Bishop having a powerful bargaining chip is probably as close to accurate as we can get with the sources being as unreliable as they are.

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[quote=Gul al-Ahlaam]In response to the above:

The text for siding with the Devils does seem to clinch the idea that they are friends or allies with the Fingerkings. I think your idea about the Bishop having a powerful bargaining chip is probably as close to accurate as we can get with the sources being as unreliable as they are.

You are making me wish to replay all of Diocesan Intrigue to side with the Devils to then free the guy in the destiny. Thanks for the guilt of picking masters.

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  1. What proportion of drownies are forcefully assimilated. Except for the flavor text and some suggestions in the flute street storyline it seems to me that most drownies chose to become how they are (though the one in the black ribbon story-line is the only example that I can think of which proves this, so maybe This is just conformation bias).
    edited by Zarrg on 11/2/2016
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There’s actually a card in the Nadir that covers that one.

http://fallenlondon.wikia.com/wiki/The_Web
&quotIf there is only one possibility,&quot one says - &quotIf I can only accept, or refuse, to be imprisoned until I accept - is that a choice at all?&quot

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And they’re often mentioned trying to trick people into drowning, or in some cases, forcibly grabbing people (If they’re in the water already)
edited by suinicide on 10/18/2016

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[quote=Zarrg]13) What proportion of drownies are forcefully assimilated. Except for the flavor text and some suggestions in the flute street storyline it seems to me that most drownies chose to become how they are (though the one in the black ribbon story-line is the only example that I can think of which proves this, so maybe This is just conformation bias).
Sorry.
I CAN STOP ANY TIME I WANT![/quote]

Depends on who you ask. Drownies would likely tell you that most do so by choice. Zee-captains would probably say otherwise. Also, how would you define choice? What if someone was mad with terror, and drownies coerced them into joining them?

Numbers are a tricky thing to come by in the Neath. Well, asides from one number, and that doesn’t really count.