I really don’t know, but if you are trying to have some humorous or in a sarcastic-but-in-a-friendly-manner conversation, maybe you need to make it very obvious, we don’t know you that much, we can only read what you have written.
If all BiS become fate, this break the game. That I try to say.
[li]
I not write "entirely". "Delete your post" because if some person from new team (who was made Skies) will see this idea, ALL BiS may become fate. "Delete" because this idea is too dangerous.
[li][/quote]
Quite apart from anything else, Fallen London is rather philosophically set against the notion that any idea is too dangerous. Finding out the truth might have appalling and lethal consequences, but that’s part of the fun of the thing! [/li]
[quote=MrCandles]I not write "entirely". "Delete your post" because if some person from new team (who was made Skies) will see this idea, ALL BiS may become fate. "Delete" because this idea is too dangerous.
[li][/quote]Firstly, you’re fixating on just 27 words of a 700-word response - that’s not even 4% of what was written.
Additionally, I think you’re misunderstanding something. This isn’t really a "new team" making Skies, nor is a "new team" making Fallen London. If you look back at rahv’s post, you might notice the observation that it’s mostly two people working on Fallen London, and both have spent years with Failbetter and even longer with Storynexus - and one of them, at least, played Fallen London before joining the company.
And this idea that "ALL BiS may become fate" is an absurd proposition. Hardly any BiS nowadays is Fate-locked, and there’s little evidence indicating that the company intends to break the status quo in any meaningful way.
[quote=MrCandles]If all BiS become fate, this break the game. That I try to say.[/quote]As a point, I disagree with this precisely because this is a game. We play for our own enjoyment.
For example, let’s consider the Dangerous stat. With enough persistence, anyone can raise it to base 215. Now suppose someone plays Flint, which includes a choice that can push Dangerous even higher to 220. And then, because why not, they play it again to raise it to 231. And then again, to 242. Now their Dangerous is 27 levels higher than anyone could ever reach without Fate. Does this break the game? It doesn’t break mine. So what if someone out there chooses to spend money this way? At the end of the day, it’s going to fund this game that I enjoy playing.
What distinguishes this payment model is that there’s not really any incentive to do that. People can choose to do it because they want to. It’s in no way necessary to play the game. We just play the way we want to play. Would you call that breaking the game?
And if that’s all you wanted to say, then just say that from the beginning. It’s exceptionally rude to tell someone to delete the post they spent time and effort writing just because you disagree with it, especially over something so trivial.
-[/li]
edited by Azothi on 8/4/2019
[quote=Azothi][quote=MrCandles]I not write "entirely". "Delete your post" because if some person from new team (who was made Skies) will see this idea, ALL BiS may become fate. "Delete" because this idea is too dangerous.
[li][/quote]Firstly, you’re fixating on just 27 words of a 700-word response - that’s not even 4% of what was written.
Additionally, I think you’re misunderstanding something. This isn’t really a "new team" making Skies, nor is a "new team" making Fallen London. If you look back at rahv’s post, you might notice the observation that it’s mostly two people working on Fallen London, and both have spent years with Failbetter and even longer with Storynexus - and one of them, at least, played Fallen London before joining the company.
And this idea that "ALL BiS may become fate" is an absurd proposition. Hardly any BiS nowadays is Fate-locked, and there’s little evidence indicating that the company intends to break the status quo in any meaningful way.
[quote=MrCandles]If all BiS become fate, this break the game. That I try to say.[/quote]As a point, I disagree with this precisely because this is a game. We play for our own enjoyment.
For example, let’s consider the Dangerous stat. With enough persistence, anyone can raise it to base 215. Now suppose someone plays Flint, which includes a choice that can push Dangerous even higher to 220. And then, because why not, they play it again to raise it to 231. And then again, to 242. Now their Dangerous is 27 levels higher than anyone could ever reach without Fate. Does this break the game? It doesn’t break mine. So what if someone out there chooses to spend money this way? At the end of the day, it’s going to fund this game that I enjoy playing.
What distinguishes this payment model is that there’s not really any incentive to do that. People can choose to do it because they want to. It’s in no way necessary to play the game. We just play the way we want to play. Would you call that breaking the game?
And if that’s all you wanted to say, then just say that from the beginning. It’s exceptionally rude to tell someone to delete the post they spent time and effort writing just because you disagree with it, especially over something so trivial.
-[/li]
edited by Azothi on 8/4/2019[/quote]
I start playing from Sunless Sea and joined Fallen London only in Murgathroyd Formula season. But I know some about online games. Make BiS fate is wrong way.
[li]
[quote=MrCandles]I start playing from Sunless Sea and joined Fallen London only in Murgathroyd Formula season. But I know some about online games. Make BiS fate is wrong way. [/quote]You must learn that BiS down here, in the Neath, has a different meaning when we compare it to other games. Fallen London is not about this, even some players min-max the Hell out of it like busy working bees! :P
And while complaining/begging/nagging/suggesting that you don’t have Fate, how do you expect for projects like this to function financially?
edited by Skinnyman on 8/4/2019
[quote=Skinnyman][quote=MrCandles]I start playing from Sunless Sea and joined Fallen London only in Murgathroyd Formula season. But I know some about online games. Make BiS fate is wrong way. [/quote]You must learn that BiS down here, in the Neath, has a different meaning when we compare it to other games. Fallen London is not about this, even some players min-max the Hell out of it like busy working bees! :P
And while complaining/begging/nagging/suggesting that you don’t have Fate, how do you expect for projects like this to function financially?
edited by Skinnyman on 8/4/2019[/quote]
I think, enhanced fate teasing will be better. Make more fate sources, for 20 or more free fate maximum. When player spend this fate for only one story (spirifier, velocipede squad), this will be stimulation to buying fate.
But firstly, I told about BiS. Teasing by hight stats of fate items is wrong way. Fallen London about stories, I really understand it.
[li]
I’m not sure why you’re concerned about BiS items becoming entirely fate-locked, since that isn’t really happening. Going through my inventory, fate BiS main stats items (not counting professions) are:
- Corinthian Belfry Hat, +3 shadowy over free BiS. Was available for free.[/li][li]Thoroughly Cowed Pony, +6 shadowy with no free BiS.[/li][li]Ubergoat, +10 watchful over free BiS. Only costs 1 Fate.[/li][li]Feducci’s Lance (Replica), +10 dangerous over free BiS. Tied with the hopefully-temporarily retired Waxwail Knife.[/li][li]A Traitor’s Carriage, +3 dangerous transport with no free BiS. [/li][li]Private Debating Lessons with the Jovial Contrarian, +10 persuasive over free BiS.
I may have missed one somewhere, but that’s only six items in the entire game. Fallen London doesn’t have competitive content outside Knife and Candle, which used different stats anyways. So does it really matter if players can spend money for slightly higher stats? None of these are required for any content, they just make it slightly easier. And if Failbetter adds more fate BiS items? They won’t remove the existing free items, so as long as they don’t add content that requires even higher stats than current, that won’t matter either.
That said, if you’re concerned about Feducci’s Lance, the Private Debating Lessons, and the possibility of future Hallowmas weapons, I entirely agree with you. Those items threaten balance issues, devalue existing items, make powerful items less special, and I hate the "time-limited grind replaced with Fate" way to get them. Personally I hope Failbetter never adds more of these.
Finally, if you’re talking about BDR items, it’s fine for those to have Fate-locked BiS. They’re only relevant to one game mechanic, and unlike the main stats, high BDR isn’t required to unlock content. Having the max free BDR makes Notability grinds slower, but it doesn’t block off any content. The only time it’s mattered how fast you can grind Notability is Hallowmas, which is why Failbetter removed that feature. So while I agree that grinding Notability without spending money is more frustrating, it doesn’t actually stop you from doing anything.
[quote=MrCandles]I think, enhanced fate teasing will be better. Make more fate sources, for 20 or more free fate maximum. When player spend this fate for only one story (spirifier, velocipede squad), this will be stimulation to buying fate.
But firstly, I told about BiS. Teasing by hight stats of fate items is wrong way. Fallen London about stories, I really understand it.[/quote]
Personally, I think just giving more Fate is the wrong approach. Many of the cheaper Fate stories are old content and their writing just isn’t as good. Instead, I’d love to see Failbetter let people choose a free Exceptional Story. We have over four years of them by now. Offer a choice from a handful of the popular older ones. Then free players get a treat while some people decide to buy other stories. It’s only awkward for players who’ve already played all the offered stories, but I certainly wouldn’t say no to replaying an old favorite for free.
(This conversation has gotten off topic from the original point of the thread, though…)
edited by Optimatum on 8/4/2019
[quote=Optimatum]I’m not sure why you’re concerned about BiS items becoming entirely fate-locked, since that isn’t really happening. Going through my inventory, fate BiS main stats items (not counting professions) are:
- Corinthian Belfry Hat, +3 shadowy over free BiS. Was available for free.[/li][li]Thoroughly Cowed Pony, +6 shadowy with no free BiS.[/li][li]Ubergoat, +10 watchful over free BiS. Only costs 1 Fate.[/li][li]Feducci’s Lance (Replica), +10 dangerous over free BiS. Tied with the hopefully-temporarily retired Waxwail Knife.[/li][li]A Traitor’s Carriage, +3 dangerous transport with no free BiS. [/li][li]Private Debating Lessons with the Jovial Contrarian, +10 persuasive over free BiS.
I may have missed one somewhere, but that’s only six items in the entire game. Fallen London doesn’t have competitive content outside Knife and Candle, which used different stats anyways. So does it really matter if players can spend money for slightly higher stats? None of these are required for any content, they just make it slightly easier. And if Failbetter adds more fate BiS items? They won’t remove the existing free items, so as long as they don’t add content that requires even higher stats than current, that won’t matter either.
That said, if you’re concerned about Feducci’s Lance, the Private Debating Lessons, and the possibility of future Hallowmas weapons, I entirely agree with you. Those items threaten balance issues, devalue existing items, make powerful items less special, and I hate the "time-limited grind replaced with Fate" way to get them. Personally I hope Failbetter never adds more of these.
Finally, if you’re talking about BDR items, it’s fine for those to have Fate-locked BiS. They’re only relevant to one game mechanic, and unlike the main stats, high BDR isn’t required to unlock content. Having the max free BDR makes Notability grinds slower, but it doesn’t block off any content. The only time it’s mattered how fast you can grind Notability is Hallowmas, which is why Failbetter removed that feature. So while I agree that grinding Notability without spending money is more frustrating, it doesn’t actually stop you from doing anything.
[quote=MrCandles]I think, enhanced fate teasing will be better. Make more fate sources, for 20 or more free fate maximum. When player spend this fate for only one story (spirifier, velocipede squad), this will be stimulation to buying fate.
But firstly, I told about BiS. Teasing by hight stats of fate items is wrong way. Fallen London about stories, I really understand it.[/quote]
Personally, I think just giving more Fate is the wrong approach. Many of the cheaper Fate stories are old content and their writing just isn’t as good. Instead, I’d love to see Failbetter let people choose a free Exceptional Story. We have over four years of them by now. Offer a choice from a handful of the popular older ones. Then free players get a treat while some people decide to buy other stories. It’s only awkward for players who’ve already played all the offered stories, but I certainly wouldn’t say no to replaying an old favorite for free.
(This conversation has gotten off topic from the original point of the thread, though…)
edited by Optimatum on 8/4/2019[/quote]
I not hate Mayor Hallowmas Gift as it is (because you need spend all confessions for it). But I hate easiness of buying it by fate. sarcasm mode FB, why you not add fate option "stray Overgoat went to your lodgings" or "you drink mushroom wine, but it was full bottle of Gesperidian Cider"? sarcasm mode off
Probably, this stories isn’t good as new. But I and my alts have no fate for stories, only for small options. What I know about fate? Ubergoat, strange meat and back singular plant. And every month teasing by ES, that even have not information in wiki - if I not understand, I will must choose random, because not know possible rewards.
[li]
Huh, that is an unexpected turn of events. :)
Based on all the "free" games I know that also have paid content (I hesitate to use the term "Freemium" because FL does not use that model in my opionion), Fallen London is by far the most fair about it. You can play the game perfectly well without ever paying Fate and still have fun for months. You need Fate mostly for two things: buy additional stories (you could think of this as paid DLC for a free game) and convenience options (pay money to avoid grinds or do completely optional things for roleplaying reasons). There is no pay-to-win. Not having the few BiS-items will not lock you out of content or result in any meaningful disadvantages.
@MrCandles: You need to understand that game devs do not work exclusively for your amusement. They actually need to pay rent and buy food just like everybody else. The amount of quality content Failbetter is giving away for free is mind-blowing. And they can only do that because players appreciate their work and adore the game and are willing to pay money to get more stories (… or a guinea-pig that insists it’s a weapon).
Here is an interesting talk by Failbetter’s Olivia Wood on the topic: Feeding the Maw: Managing a Live Narrative Game in Fallen London - YouTube
Another note on the restrictions on fate-locked content:
Failbetter do not want us to reveal the actual text of fate-locked stories because if you know that, there is no reason to buy the story anymore. That is what their business is all about. However, we are absolutely allowed to discuss rewards. In fact, for a lot of fate-locked options and stories, the wiki will hint (possible) rewards. For instance, if you look at the page for the "Theological Husbandry"-story, you will see the categories for which items this story is a source. Conversely, if you look at, say, the Obdurate Stallion-page, you will see that it is available via "Theological Husbandry". So discussing rewards is no issue at all. Failbetter explicitely said so.
Concerning stories, I would recommend taking a look at our regular surveys to see which stories are generally well liked. Phryne does something similar here on the forum. Also, nobody will mind if you ask about specific themes, in the same way that you would ask a friend if you will like a book or movie that they own.
Edit: To improve readability of the thread, it’d be lovely if you would not quote pages of text to reply to a single sentence.
edited by rahv7 on 8/4/2019
If it’s not too rude to ask, MrCandles, perhaps the Fate-Locked BiS discussion be moved to another topic?
I feel like the discussion has derailed extremely from the original point, to its detriment.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents on this matter too (not the fate BIS one). I think one way of adding free content would be to introduce more goal that free players are able to achieve but have to work towards (similar to becoming a Poet-Laurate or Paramount Presence). It’d help (from my perspective) to give motivation to playing the game more to achieve a new accomplishment of some sort.
Another thing that Failbetter could add that is (hopefully)not too complex is introduce more social actions, that can have mild/small rewards, help add more flavor to the game by getting to know certain untouched and non vital areas (story wise) more. (ex. their currently impossible ‘having scones at beatrice’s with another player’ storylet). Even small self-contained storylets may help too; storylets/interactions with the regular citizens of London. Examples include letting a maid/butler vent about the things they deal with regularly at the palace, helping a baker with prep work, etc.
edited by The Ambivalent Dynamo on 8/5/2019
Indeed, these things seem like the easier to add, along with some small mechanical corrections that would make the game easier(again, a fifth slot for BDR clothes).
I admit I was surprised by how vast and how well-foreshadowed the Arbor content was. This seems like a huge and very thoughtful endeavor, in the midst of a diffcult year, so I do feel bad about asking for anything else at the time. But as many players have said, the concern is mostly that people would be driven away if they felt London was stagnating, and that might hurt FL in the long run.
Ya, I think what draws people in to Fallen London is the mysteries, the stories, and character progression (qualities/gear/rewards) from them. I know certain storylines like ambitions are a huge endeavor, but seeing smaller, self-contained storylines would help draw people in. I know certain storylines might take a lot of work to finalize, so more ways to interact with the world (even social actions with other players), would help to make the world more vast and diverse to me.