The quest does seem to involve a lot of… putting yourself in the place of Mr Eaten, though. It’s a fascinating situation: going through the motions of what happened to him, and repeating his number everywhere makes you learn about him, and perhaps move you closer to becoming him. It’s like there’s some sort of metaphysical hole left by his death, that you’re forcing yourself into.
Yeah, I also thought that the entire path of SMEN involved reenacting Mr. Eaten’s tribolation - no, not reenacting, reliving. Like, becoming a sort of Mr. Eaten’s avatar. In this perspective, it is not a quest of knowledge - that is, the important part is not just learning a name, but actively becoming it (I think "Becoming the Name" is literally one of the steps?).
Becoming the Number certainly is. And the Number seems to be a facet of the Name, or at least intertwined with it.
[quote=streetfelineblue]
Wait a minute - I thought Mr. Eaten was S,S&C seven times, while only five cities have been sold as of now. Unless by chance there are other two sold cities that for some reason don’t count to the total number, but it seems unlikely to me.[/quote]
[li]
It has been confirmed in various places (and specifically my possible-future choice text) that London is the 5th of 7. After London there are two more cities to be bought and eventually fed to the lacre-reserves
We know the name, actually, or at least what he was called. WARNING, GIGANTIC SPOILER FROM CHRISTMAS CONTENT Before he was eaten by the God-Eaters, he was Mr. Candles. We may be searching for his actual name though, if Masters do have names past their titles.[li]
No, it’s the Flukes of Flute Street that the Lorn-Flukes are cousins to, not the Rubbery Men. I think my theory is supported by the fact that, in Flute Street, it talks about how the Flukes are from space, and they’re described as having been there when the Bazaar first arrived, and both the Bazaar and the Flukes are described as having vanes and spires (for communication in space).
I see, hmmm this changes my theory, but it still doesn’t explains the connection to irrigo -which is found in the cave of the Nadir-, to Mr Eaten (or atleast the search of his name) and of the fact that they understand the correspondence which according to other visions of the future is the language of the Masters as well
thWell, all put togeher, there seems to be a connection, albeit questionable.
[spoiler]The Bazaar was once "between the stars", suggesting an alien origin if it’s to be taken literally. That implies that in origin it could have been be a member of the same race as the Flukes, or at least a similar creature, considering the similarities in form - vanes and spires. Only, the Flukes were already on Earth when the Bazaar arrived. The main difference is in behaviour - Flukes are bound to the deep underground (ordinary Flukes in Flute Street, the Lorn-Flukes in the deep Unterzee, that is basically the underground of the underground) while the Bazaar stayed on the surface and interacted with the world; at least until the First City was taken and brought underground.
Now, we know that the Bazaar was once in love with the Sun, and felt deeply slighted by the Moon. My wild guess at this point is that the Bazaar was originally an intergalactic spacefaring creature, who came to Earth to court its lover and was scorned, retiring undergound in grief. There was very probably a role of the Masters in all this , but the precise extent of it isn’t exactly clear. What seems sure is that the Masters provide some kind of service to the Bazaar in exchange for some kind of riches, and this service would seem to be the provision of true love stories. But I wonder if the Masters also had a part in the Bazaar’s arrival and in its courtship of the Sun, or if their first "work" for the Bazaar was the First City theft - the Bazaar being already underground, with the Masters providing it with a reliable source of love stories to… Pass the time, I suppose? XD
We don’t know if the Masters are related to the Fluke race, but it’s not likely - Flukes seem to have a very tenuous grasp of earthly anatomy, if they think Rubbery Men are well-designed to interact with humans, while the Masters have developed advanced language skills and, while unable to morph into a realistic human form, they do seem to grasp the concept of "humanity" at least at the point to be able to disguise themselves so to not seem too alien to the human eye.
But the Masters, albeit non-related to the Flukes’ (and the Bazaar’s?) race, could very possibly be extraterrestrial in origin too. The endgame of the Chill of the Void storyline mention in passing the humble origins of the player character turned Master. It would seem that the Masters share a certain disdain for creatures born from the "mud" (the mud being explicitly mentioned), like their origin was radically different.[/spoiler]
edited by streetfelineblue on 11/5/2013
We know the name, actually, or at least what he was called. WARNING, GIGANTIC SPOILER FROM CHRISTMAS CONTENT Before he was eaten by the God-Eaters, he was Mr. Candles. We may be searching for his actual name though, if Masters do have names past their titles. [li][/quote]
But your character doesn’t remember hearing that, if they accepted it. So the character is still searching for the Name - although I wouldn’t consider it impossible for there to be more to the Name itself than just what we learned there. (The Destiny content rather suggests that Masters call each other by their titles, sans whatever prefix of the era they use - Mr, Khan, etc.)[/li] On the player’s end, though, it’s not just searching for the Name, but about what happened to Mr Eaten, and in doing so surrendering yourself to him.
[li]
[quote=streetfelineblue]thWell, all put togeher, there seems to be a connection, albeit questionable.
SPOILER TAG FILLED WITH MAGICAL BRILLIANCE[/quote]
Incredible theories like these are why I love discussing Echo Bazaar’s mythos. I frankly can’t find a flaw in your ideas.
[li]
I agree with you, yea. I especially like streetfelineblue’s phrasing:
Obviously a simple word could not create such circumstances as Seeking procures (as the name is presumably in english, not correspondence {not likely, but if it IS, that not only explains a lot but also makes everything more complicated}). The true danger comes from recreating the events Mr. Eaten experienced which do not appear to have been pleasant. I think that these events’ strange nature is what makes people pulled to recreating them under the guise of Seeking the Name and possibly suggests that the God-Eaters are not truly sated.
For you see, as no known record has been made of his name, the only way to learn it is to utilize this strange nature to walk parallel to Mr. Eaten until your body (scarred), mind (chained), and soul (stained) actually become his, and not only do you know the full truth of what happened, but you know the Name because the Name is now yours.
(LOL tnx for the “magical brilliance” part XD)
[quote=Erik Vimes][…]Obviously a simple word could not create such circumstances as Seeking procures (as the name is presumably in english, not correspondence {not likely, but if it IS, that not only explains a lot but also makes everything more complicated}). The true danger comes from recreating the events Mr. Eaten experienced which do not appear to have been pleasant. I think that these events’ strange nature is what makes people pulled to recreating them under the guise of Seeking the Name and possibly suggests that the God-Eaters are not truly sated.
For you see, as no known record has been made of his name, the only way to learn it is to utilize this strange nature to walk parallel to Mr. Eaten until your body (scarred), mind (chained), and soul (stained) actually become his, and not only do you know the full truth of what happened, but you know the Name because the Name is now yours.[/quote]
One thing that just came to my mind; Mr. Eaten’s name ins’t necessarily in Correspondence, but there nearly sure exist a Correspondence translation - the Correspondence being the language of the Bazaar and the Lorn-Flukes (and probably the original language of the Flukes too, though they talk to you in your own language?), the Bazaar itself probably has Correspondence sigils referring to all of the Masters, that it uses to refer to them in their transactions. So, even if Mr. Eaten’s real name is not in Correspondence, it is not excluded that one of the revelations could refer to the way the Bazaar called (calls?) him, and that would probably be expressed in Correspondence.
I love all these theories; I wonder how close we are to what’s Alexis’ head. Assuming he even has an endgame. ;-)
One thing though; where in game is there any information about the sun and the moon and the bazaar and what’s going on between them.
I think people started talking about this when the Cave of the Nadir opened and I asked it then too; I can’t find any storylet or anything with information on this.
Among other places, there’s lots of little hints in Scholar of the Correspondence-related stories, and some major ones in one of the dream paths from the current Hallowmas content.
Also, of all the places, there’s a pretty clear one in the Ovate tradition (that is, in the description text of the Ovate Order medals), while the Serpentine Order gives insights into the Fingerkings’ motives and modus operandi, and the Vespertine Order gives insights about laws and uses of the Presbyterate and the location of the Garden. Caveat emptor: first you need to decide if you consider the Order’s medals a reliable source of information.
edited by streetfelineblue on 11/6/2013
We know the name, actually, or at least what he was called. WARNING, GIGANTIC SPOILER FROM CHRISTMAS CONTENT [li][/quote][/li][li]
[/li][spoiler]Based on the Void endings from the Destinies content, it seems like a Master is something that one becomes, rather than an existing race of creatures. You can become a Master too. And pointedly, it seems that the other Masters may have different origins as well (Veils is apparently embarrassed of his). In that case, Mr. Eaten might certainly have had a truer name before he was even Mr. Candles.
In the Void content, there was also talk of a promise the Bazaar made to the Masters. They are employed by it. It is an exchange. Perhaps the "state" of being a Master is something granted by the Bazaar as well?[/spoiler][li]
[quote=Rowan Dusang]
Eaten discussion[/quote]
[spoiler] Maybe that’s the further point of the SMEN quest; not only do you become his avatar and retrace his steps to become him in every facet, but you resume the role he once played. This would explain all the sacrifice in the quest and its crescendo; at the very end, you too are fed to the God-Eaters as appeasement. You cease to exist, not even a dead body left. The ultimate price.[li]
Hopefully this somehow doesn’t include our character being deleted. [/spoiler]
Some delicious text from the Feast of Masks:
[spoiler] ‘…the Stone Pigs will be crowned to reign in filth and folly! The mouthless angel will unleash a plague upon the stars! They will fall - first one by one, then in multitudes!’
Does this mean the moon-misers will become sick and start to die (and therefore literally fall onto London)?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]About Mr. Eaten: your theory about the ultimate fate of those engaged in SMEN seems fitting, and looks very similar the Blackest Brine ending giving the The Memory Destiny.
About the Feast of Masks spoiler: I can only HOPE it refers to the Moon-Misers: given the relation between the Bazaar and the Sun, the alien origin of the Flukes, and the chance, offered by several, usually Fate-locked Destinies, to obtain supernatural powers bending the very laws of nature or the fabric of reality, I couldn’t exclude it refers to the stars proper T.T
But yeah, apocalyptic fears aside, sure there will be an end to the Moon-Misers one way or the other; it is a prerequisite for full darkness in the Neath, and so it’s necessary for the Liberation of Night to come. The "mouthless angel" could be some sort of creature or device created/used by the Calendar Council for this reason exactly?[/spoiler]
We’ll likely hear more about this with the end of the Light Fingers ambition, as the moon-misers are playing a very prominent role in the story. As this is a spoiler text, I think it’s alright to reveal that a woman manages to get pregnant with either a moon-miser or some horrible human/moon-miser mutation-thing. The next step to be written is stealing one of Mr. Fire’s dirigibles to go to the roof and get a certain goo so that she will survive giving birth. Maybe this abomination plays a role?
We’ll likely hear more about this with the end of the Light Fingers ambition, as the moon-misers are playing a very prominent role in the story. As this is a spoiler text, I think it’s alright to reveal that a woman manages to get pregnant with either a moon-miser or some horrible human/moon-miser mutation-thing. The next step to be written is stealing one of Mr. Fire’s dirigibles to go to the roof and get a certain goo so that she will survive giving birth. Maybe this abomination plays a role?
…DAMN, I hate having lost the chance to play Light Fingers instead of Heart’s Desire T.T At least I was able to read it on the wiki - now that wikis have been nerfed I was even thinking to change Ambition, but that’s not a decision I want to make before Ambitions are complete - what if I spend those 50 Fate only to discover that Heart’s Desire becomes awesome in its last chapters? T.T