Looking for Advice on Making Waves and Money

I have decided that my next major goal is to become a Paramount Presence. Two of the four requirements (London’s Nerves and London’s Marrow) have options that can be easily achieved through a significant amount of extra cash (Wealth and a 2nd Overgoat). Additionally, since I do not currently have any base stat at 215 at present, I need to get Notability to 15 four times.
So, I’m looking for non-card-based repeatable methods of increasing possessed wealth (resell value) and making waves. I know there are a number of items that can be up/side-traded that also produce MW, but am rather unclear as to the best method of obtaining/using these, especially when also looking to make money at the same time.

Some notes about where I stand at present
I already have 200+ in all 4 stats and BDR 32. (With gear: Watchful 258, Shadowy 254, Dangerous 260, Persuasive 268)
I have done most non-monthly Fate-locked stories, except The Blemmigan Affair (Unpurchased) and The Empress’ Shadow (Purchased, uncompleted).
I am a Correspondent, a Spirifer, and Closest to Hell.
My Renown is low with most factions and I have none of the renown reward items.

EDIT : UPDATE
Doing some math, I’m thinking grinding Tales of Terror and up-converting them to Extraordinary Implications to do my Making Waves/Notability is the best route. Estimating needing to farm ~28,200 Tales of Terror to get Notability to 15 four times (to max base stats) plus Notability to 13 three times (to reset PoSI specialization) plus Notability to 6 three times (to select new PoSI specialization). There apparently is a more efficient method doable at the Empress’ Court, but I believe this method is better due to the ability to produce the Making Waves at much higher speeds (Notability 5 -> 15 in ~176 actions, including force-drawing Amanuensis) when needed, and allows continued grinding without losing MW when waiting for the right card to show up (Amanuensis or Unsigned Message).

Maths (if anybody’s interested/wants to check my work):

[spoiler]5 actions = +18 casing = 3.6 casing/action (Preparing for a Big Score w/ Gang of Hoodlums option)
32 casing = 25 Tale of Terror
(25*0.5)/((32/3.6)+1) = 1.264 EpA for base grind

((64/3.6)+2) Actions = 50 ToT
25*((64/3.6)+2) Actions = 1250 ToT
25*((64/3.6)+2)+28 Actions = 250 Extraordinary Implications + ~15 Strangling Willow Absinthe + ~200 MW - 15 Abominable Salts
(Up-converting ToT requires 5 CP of Connected: Summerset; 75 CP of Connected: Summerset costs 15 Abominable Salts through Endowment of a University Fellowship, requiring 3 actions)

Extraordinary Implication = 2.5 Echoes
Strangling Willow Absinthe = 0.5 Echoes
Abominable Salts = 0.2 Echoes

(2502.5)+(150.5)-(150.2) = 629.5 Echoes /(25((64/3.6)+2)+28) = ~1.205 EpA
~200 MW / (25*((64/3.6)+2)+28) = ~0.38 MWpA

((((((46)-12)+((415)-12))(((415)-12)-(((46)-12)+1)))/2)4)+(((((((46)-12)+((413)-12))(((413)-12)-(((46)-12)+1)))/2)+((46)-12))*3) = 4,510.5 MW needed to farm (I may have got the math wrong here. Owww, my head; BDR 32 gives first 5 levels of Notability and MW free)

4510.5/2001250=~28190.625 Tale of Terror needed
28190.625/50=563.8125 (Round up) = 564
50 = 28,200 Tale of Terror to farm
((2502.5)+(150.5)-(150.2))/1250 = 0.503628200 = 14,201.52 Echoes
28200/(1250/(25*((64/3.6)+2)+28)) = 11,787 Actions needed (Farming/Up-converting only)[/spoiler]
edited by Faey on 11/6/2017

For money, your best bet is Spirifage. Acquire Souls through Unfinished Business in Spite and sell a thousand at a time in Ladybones. That’s 1.75 EPA, so you should also learn which cards are more profitable and play those. Unless you need the extra couple points of Watchful and Persuasive, you should also become a Doctor or Notary since that gives an extra 10 echoes every week. It’ll still take a while to get enough for another Overgoat, but if you do London’s Marrow first it’s two birds one stone.

For MW, the most efficient method is side-converting Tier 3 items in a circle, which gives around 1.4 MW per action. Once you have a decent stockpile of these items you don’t need to get more, since the conversion carousel doesn’t consume any of them. (In fact, every cycle you gain one of each item.) If you don’t have enough Tier 3 items, the best source I’m aware of is stealing Tales of Terror!! through Thefts of a Particular Character using a Gang of Hoodlums.

As with money, you should learn which cards give a decent amount of MW. Off the top of my head: the Hallowmas option on One’s Public is great, investigating Feducci on the Mayor card is okay, the Polite Invitation gives MW alongside various other benefits (and can be used to refresh your deck), and the Society and Bohemians cards have MW options. Almost all the Lodgings cards have options to trade more expensive items for large amounts of MW; the Salon/Orphanage options on the Handsome Townhouse’s card are especially potent so it’s worth building up Scheme in preparation.

Iirc, when you include grinding the items, the various Lodgings options are all less efficient than side-converting’s 1.4 MW per action. They’re still useful because for high Notability levels because the slow-and-steady efficient path isn’t always enough to increase Notability before TtH comes.

One other thing - if you plan on playing Flint in the future, you can use this to reduce the Dangerous 215 requirement. Deciding that not all shall be well and drinking from the well lowers Persuasive by about 40 levels, but it also multiplies your base Dangerous by 1.025. Using this you can only to overcap to 210 and then play Flint. (Or if you have money to burn you can just play Flint three times and not bother overcapping at all.)
edited by Optimatum on 11/5/2017

I knew Spirifage used to be the best EPA method (how I got my current Overgoat), wasn’t sure if it was still the case, though, since I’ve been gone a long time.

I chose Correspondent for RP reasons, and I don’t think the extra effort of changing carriers for 10 echoes/week is worth the effort.

That was the plan, get marrow first (or possibly 3rd), then buy the 2nd goat.

So 1.4 MW + 0.5 EPA.

Do you happen to know what the EPA for grinding this is? I’m curious if it might be more efficient for my purposes to grind large numbers of Tales, then up-convert to Extraordinary Implications, especially when it comes to doing the high-notability push.

Side conversions actually give ~1.61 CP of MW per action, on average.

There are lower MW, higher EpA routs in the Empress Court. 0.91 EpA 1 MW option in The life of the mind. And 1.36 EpA 0.44 MW for some endings for short works (you advance kicking out of the Court or Poet-Laureate on the way). It might be useful on low Notability levels.
For final Notability points marriage and divorce might be a good way, but not when you already happy with that rubbery thing.
edited by Waterpls on 11/5/2017

Do you happen to know what the EPA for grinding this is? I’m curious if it might be more efficient for my purposes to grind large numbers of Tales, then up-convert to Extraordinary Implications, especially when it comes to doing the high-notability push.[/quote]
It’s 25 Tales of Terror!! per ~9.8 actions so about 1.26 EPA. Not sure how that’ll compare to grinding money and MW separately though. And yeah, stockpiling Tales and upconverting is one of the best methods for burst MW gain, after things like the Salon and Orphanage.

My usual route, rather than side-converting in a circle (which involves a long, Wave-less desert after Absinthe) is to grind for Honey, up-convert it to Visions of the Surface, and then side-convert up through Tales of Terror!!, which I then up-convert to Extraordinary Implications. This route cuts out the less profitable portions of the grind (and gives a substantial guaranteed MW boost for the Implications conversion), at the price of having to grind Honey and up-convert. However, the Romantic Notions > Visions of the Surface conversion also gives MW, so the on-ramp isn’t a total action sink. Overall, this method gives a higher average CP than trudging through the back end of the cycle.

(I can’t remember the numbers off-hand and don’t have time to recalculate now, but they’re on the forum somewhere.)

Thank you all those who’ve replied. Based on the information I’ve seen so far, as well as doing math to make my head hurt, I’ve decided to go with grinding Tale of Terror and up-converting as needed. Original post has been update with this, as well as the math I did if anyone wants to check it.

You can leech up to 100 MW in one action in Dante’s Grill. Its much better than Patronage or Private Supper. But you need special alt for it. Not many non-POSI walking around with 500 MW per week.

[quote=Siankan]My usual route, rather than side-converting in a circle (which involves a long, Wave-less desert after Absinthe) is to grind for Honey, up-convert it to Visions of the Surface, and then side-convert up through Tales of Terror!!, which I then up-convert to Extraordinary Implications. This route cuts out the less profitable portions of the grind (and gives a substantial guaranteed MW boost for the Implications conversion), at the price of having to grind Honey and up-convert. However, the Romantic Notions > Visions of the Surface conversion also gives MW, so the on-ramp isn’t a total action sink. Overall, this method gives a higher average CP than trudging through the back end of the cycle.

(I can’t remember the numbers off-hand and don’t have time to recalculate now, but they’re on the forum somewhere.)[/quote]

Okay, just did a whole lot of math. Sideconverting is 1.53 MW per action on average. Honey to Visions to Tales of Terror!! to Extraordinary Implications to Uncanny Incanabula is 67.34 MW per 28.75 actions, for 2.34 MW per action.

This includes the actions spent grinding Foxfire Candles, converting those to Abominable Salts, and converting those to Connected: Benthic/Summerset. This also uses pessimistic numbers for various rare successes, based on the Fallen London Calculations spreadsheet, so the reality may be slightly higher. This does not include: Stolen Kisses from the rare success on grinding honey, as they requires Favours to upconvert; alternative sources of items such as honey from A merry sort of crime; the Nightmares gain from the failure for upconverting Tales of Terror!!.
edited by Optimatum on 11/7/2017

Towards the end of the event I was grinding honey using Life of the Mind, though that one has an annoying alternate success where you get Fascinating instead of Making Waves and honey.

Okay, on further examination that can’t possibly be right. The action cost I got would mean it was 2.37 EPA, which makes no sense whatsoever.

I’m assuming these do not take into account the initial grind to acquire the base materials? If that’s the case, just straight converting Tales of Terror to Extraordinary Implications is ~7.14 MWpA, not including any rare successes. I didn’t try doing calculations on Extraordinary Implications to Uncanny Incunabula due to the large variability in MW range, plus the extra 3 actions used every 3-4 converts for Connected: Benthic, as well as the lack of information of chance of rare success. Might be worth it if low on Tales of Terror and needing a final push, or if the rare success rate is high enough for the Pulsating Amber.

Haven’t looked at grinding Candles (not even sure where to do this best) for Salts… is this efficient enough to make it worth it over just buying the Salts from the Bazaar and using the actions for grinding other items?
edited by Faey on 11/8/2017

Are you taking into account the initial value of the honey you’re starting with?
I mean, if I don’t take into account the value of the Tales of Terror, 1250 ToT > EI would be 22.53 EpA instead of the 0.16 EpA it actually is.
edited by Faey on 11/8/2017

I’m assuming these do not take into account the initial grind to acquire the base materials? If that’s the case, just straight converting Tales of Terror to Extraordinary Implications is ~7.14 MWpA, not including any rare successes.[/quote]
I tried to calculate the number of actions it would take to grind and convert the necessary items for one Incanabula conversion. I suspect I left something out somewhere along the line.

Hmm, I’ll have to do the math both including and ignoring that conversion. I’m pretty sure it’ll lead to higher MW gain since a lot of the steps don’t give MW at all, so one more MW gain per cycle for only an action or two will help a lot.

Speaking of things to try, I should check the rates for grinding via The Life of The Mind in Court… it would be lower EPA since you get a little less honey, but you’d also get a few more CP of MW each cycle. And I should check how much it improves MW if you sell the end results and buy more honey.

Haven’t looked at grinding Candles (not even sure where to do this best) for Salts… is this efficient enough to make it worth it over just buying the Salts from the Bazaar and using the actions for grinding other items?[/quote]

Definitely. Salts are 0.2 E from the Bazaar; using UB you can get on average 105 Salts for 11 actions. You’d need a base grind with at least 1.91 EPA for the Bazaar to be better.

And now how about grinding Romantic Notions in Polythreme? Assuming it’s possible to plan ahead and stay there for a few weeks before returning to London with a few dozen thousand Notions for the mother of all MW grinds, I’m sure it will offset the cost of the zee trip. On the other hand, at 1.2EPA and with no London deck, it might not be the best choice if profitability is taken into account. (Not to mention that you’ll probably go insane if you have to spend several weeks in Polythreme.)

Another approach for getting Connected: Benthic, which ties into Making Waves.

If you have the supplies, running expeditions in the Forgotten Quarter and teasing the findings to Benthic gives both significant MW and Connected.

[spoiler](4 Up-Converts) 100 Extraordinary Implication > 20 Uncanny Incunabulum + ~55.2 MW + 400 Nevercold Brass Sliver - 80CP Benthic (4 Echoes excess)
(10 Up-Converts) 500 Tale of Terror > 100 Extraordinary Implication + ~80 MW + 6 Bottle of Strangling Willow Absinthe - 50CP Summerset (3 Echoes excess)
(10 Side-Converts) 500 Brilliant Soul > 510 Tale of Terror (5 Echoes excess)
(10 Side-Converts) 500 Memory of Distant Shores > 510 Brilliant Soul (5 Echoes excess)
(10 Side-Converts) 500 Scrap of Incendiary Gossip > 510 Memory of Distant Shores + ~55 MW (5 Echoes excess)
(10 Side-Converts) 500 Mystery of the Elder Continent > 510 Scrap of Incendiary Gossip (5 Echoes excess)
(10 Side-Converts) 500 Vision of the Surface > 510 Mystery of the Elder Continent + ~55 MW (5 Echoes excess)
(5 Up-Converts) 2500 Romantic Notion > 525 Vision of the Surface + ~27.5 MW (12.5 Echoes excess)
(24 Up-Converts) 12000 Drop of Prisoner’s Honey > 2520 Romantic Notion (+10 Echoes + 2 Echoes excess)
(240 Grind) 12132 Drop of Prisoner’s Honey + 24 Stolen Kiss (240 Echoes + 62.64 Echoes excess)

(21 Actions) 105 Flask of Abominable Salts > 525 CP Connected: Benthic/Summerset
(1 Up-Convert) 1000 Foxfire Candle Stub > 105 Flask of Abominable Salts
(~10 Grind) 1000 Foxfire Candle Stub

Prorated Actions = (Actions/(Total CP/CP Needed))[/spoiler]
Based on the above, I calculated 1.053 EpA; 0.80 MWpA over 341 Actions

Based on the above, without the final conversion: 1.07 EpA; 0.655 MWpA over 332 Actions.

Grinding 284 times for ~12013.2 Drop of Prisoner’s Honey, then following above: 0.77 EpA; 1.23 MWpA over 384 Actions. Also ~170.4 Fascinating which I have no idea if there’s a decent conversion for.

Assuming buying the 12000 Honey (-480 Echoes) and selling all resulting items (296.5 Echoes):
-1.818 EpA; 2.70 MWpA over 101 Actions (if still grinding Candles for Connected)
-1.948 EpA; 2.776 MWpA over 98 Actions (if buying Salt for Connected)

I haven’t included Rare Success from Tale of Terror > Extraordinary Implication or Extraordinary Implication > Uncanny Incunabulum in the calculations due to not knowing the chances for those. Depending on the chance of Rare Success, EpA and MWpA may be higher.

I ran very rough numbers earlier and got ~0.57 MWpA (not including travel time). Not a noticeable improvement over other readily available options in London.

[quote=dov]Another approach for getting Connected: Benthic, which ties into Making Waves.

If you have the supplies, running expeditions in the Forgotten Quarter and teasing the findings to Benthic gives both significant MW and Connected.[/quote]
The Connected from expeditions is relatively small (max of 20 CP from non-Fate-locked expeditions) compared to Endowment of a University Fellowship which is 75 CP. Expeditions are a possible source of Echoes and Making Waves in their own right if you can get supplies efficiently. I’m not up to calculating EpA/MWpA for those, though the rewards are usually Items or MW/Connected, not both.