[color=009900]Been to bed! Now running. (You can usually tell when I’ve just got up because I’m (a) grumpier (b) white rather than green thanks to phone issues.) [/color]
[quote=Spacemarine9][quote=Ewan C.]
Just did this, btw: 8 Scintillack, 4 Linen, other stuff. So variable, but highly worthwhile.[/quote]
To save you testing, it’s been needed - Ewan has old content. Refuelling BTW is a placeholder for more pigmote later.
i got 3 scintillack, 4 linen every time for all results after i parked there and saved to test if any of the other outcomes were particularly desirable; i wonder if there’s something else at play, maybe mainstat scaling??? it’s not really feasible to get any more than maybe 10 or 20 extra stat points though so it’s not like putting it off would help much
why would anyone ever want to do this. sleep is for the we-- actually no never mind no its nto
edited by Spacemarine9 on 6/19/2014[/quote]
Huh. I had checked for new content (and there was a download). Sorry to add confusion.
We’re basically putting out new content every day this week.
I do believe I’ve found a bug! I’ve always wanted to find one of those. Is it just me, or has anyone else ground 30000 echoes in fifteen minutes by submitting endless reports to the Dark Admiral about Khan’s Heart? This, while fun, somewhat defeats the purpose… :)
By the way, the game is beautiful. Actually, that’s not by the way at all. That’s important. One thing I didn’t expect: how relaxing it can be watching your crew become terrified.
Aaaaand…you killed it. Next time I’ll patch first. :P
Oooh, there’s a patch? I’ll go and try again :D Hopefuly it won’t be so crushingly frustrating this time.
SpaceMarine, I’m with you on the RNG, I’ve been killed a few times now because of sailors jumping overboard in groups and then not having enough time to get back to port at half speed before terror ate the rest of them. RNG is MEAN.
Here is my suggestion on how to fix Terror. Note like most design notes from beta testers feel free to ignore it, but hopefully it provides something of a dialectic. Actually, I think you might have already discussed something like this idea in a blog post, but I typed it up so I’m posting it!
At the the moment Terror actively reduces the desire to explore and to take risks. Terror increasing areas are to be flat out avoided. To put it another way the only way to win the game of Terror is not to play.
The current metaphor for Terror is that of a slowly increasing mountain of rocks that will inevitably crush the player.
My suggestion is to make Terror more like Radiation. Some areas (dark areas) increase your terror, when you leave those areas, the Terror rapidly decreases (it’s important to make it rapid). However, a strict percentage of any Terror earned always sticks to you as residual Terror. So say I get up to 75 Terror points while in a Terror area, 15 points of Terror will stick to me no matter how far into the light I go. If I go back into the area and get 75 Terror points (which happens faster because its starting from 15 this time), I end up with 30 permanent Terror points.
The only way to reduce these points is by docking into port/bats/events, and the only efficient way is of course at good old Fallen London. Events triggered by Terror have the same point threshold.
I predict this change would have a few effects:
In the early game, Terror doesn’t weigh as heavily on the player’s mind as fuel and supplies. The importance of light is taught as its effects are dramatically obvious. I imagine in the first few games going right out into the middle of Terror area would kill a few new players but that’s part of skill development. However, once those skills have developed trading routes become more flexible and idiosyncratic, because the early player is confident that any Terror accrued will be removed at Fallen London.
In the Mid Game, Terror starts to become something the Player starts to plan around. They begin to experience the feeling of hopelessness as Terror accrues steadily in darkened areas larger than those in the early game, and away from any good places to remove the permanent points. Close call return trips to Fallen London become more common.
In the End Game, Terror is one of the major concerns of the player. Further east, there are farther larger areas without light, and there are monsters that regularly inflict Terror points. Fallen London is distant, requiring resupplying of fuel and supplies at intermediary harbours, but none of these docks can possibly reduce the encroaching Terror to nothing only to a certain value of manageable, only Fallen London can make Terror non-existent. Poor planning can mean the end of a game, and close call trips start to happen with each harbour.
In terms of player movement expect to see Yo-Yoing, where the player ventures out into danger and then returns to the safety of light and then swiftly risks another attempt at exploring the unknown. But this makes particular points of safety far more important to the player, rather than just places along the way from one point to another.
edited by Frenton on 6/19/2014
Tried another run still in Merciful Mode and I have got most of the Officers, at least one for every slot, and have bought a flensing cannon and boosted my stats with secrets.
I think beasties are slightly easier, though I still need to refine my strategy but I did manage to kill a bound shark with a lot of damage to my ship. Fortunately I had enough echoes when I started this morning and noticed the boost to the hull before I left FL or I would have been dead.
Zee Bat searching doesn’t work very well. I was asked to got to Polythreme and had a vague idea of its location from the Beta so kept sending out a bat but it didn’t report the location. Just kept telling me where Godfall was.
I throw another possible suggestion for terror management. Terror could be reduced when the ship sees a familiar landmark. We know that landmarks are recognized by the game because we get fragments when you see one for the first time, so a similar trigger could be used for terror reduction. I got this idea because it seems very logical to me: the crew rejoices and gets calmer when she sees familiar shores again after a perilous journey.
In order to avoid the going back and forth a landmark just to decrease terror artificially, a timing could be associated to a landmark so some time (or perhaps some distance, or whatever) must pass before using that landmark again.
Familiar landmarks at the beginning should be just Wolfstack Docks and other close Fallen London areas, but with the progression of the game one should have the possibility to “acquire” other familiar landmarks (this could be a spark for missions and adventures - for example Hunter’s keep could become a familiar landmark if you get acquainted with the sisters and you perform one - or a series of - mission for them).
[quote=conductorbosh]Most of this advice boils down to "do the same boring thing for a long time every time you start a play through of this randomized game to earn the ability to experience new things."
[/quote]
This is an important point I think. Personally I believe that it’s inevitable that the game is partially grindy in the early stages: even logically, you cannot cope with the Great Darkness if you are not well prepared and equipped. The real trick, more than avoiding the grinding, is avoiding the boredom associated with the grinding.
I want to make a comparison with an old game that I loved very much and of which Sunless Sea reminds me a lot despite of the totally different setting: Elite (or better, Elite 2). Also in that case you had to go back and forth several times the most profitable trade routes to get some money and upgrade your spaceship, avoiding the more dangerous areas and slowly expanding your exploration range. However you were not bored because of the missions. You had many different sorts of missions, from the trivial to the storyline ones, that provided enough variety. I think that’s the key.
If there’s a direction I would suggest to take for the long-term development of the game, is this one (which is a bit unfortunate because it is quite time consuming).
Well, I’ve been playing with the new patch, and while I’m glad some of the beasties have been depowered slightly (I didn’t actually notice any difference. I was still squashed flat by anything that wasn’t the yellow crab) and the hull boost is definitely an improvement, I’m not finding the game any less frustrating.
I can (mostly) avoid the creatures, but terror is still the big problem I have with the game. It discourages exploration, and ruins the thing I was most excited about with this game. Even clinging to the coast and doing repeated (and dull) tomb-colonist deliveries you STILL eventually end up with creeping terror, unless you spend every single echo you earn carousing, and then you’re back to square one and poor, and wondering why you bother leaving port?
I want to chart the vast black expanse! I want to explore, and bring back shiny bits of treasure and information for my contacts in FL. Maybe do some trading. Maybe fight a beastie or three (or run like hell, running like hell is a valid option! :p) I want to find all the fantastic story pieces that I’m sure are scattered around the place (because the reason I bought the game was to enjoy the world, not micromanage health bars) But instead I’m hugging coastlines and doing basically nothing risky, and STILL not managing to survive long enough for even the most basic upgrades, it’s just a horrible countdown clock to game over.
I really wanted to love this game as much as I love FL, but I just…don’t. I’m not having fun. I can’t get anywhere. I’m still stuck in the lowest levels with the most basic ship after playing over and over and over and over again for hours.
The thing is, I LIKE that there’s terror, it’s very cool. But it’s unreasonable at the moment. I just don’t think that the penalty for a terrified crew should be “game over”.
Terror adjustment suggestion #321: discriminating between ‘acute’ Terror (ie a mad dash into the unknown/between lighted areas), perhaps shown as a yellow bar in the current UI and ‘sustained’ Terror shown in the current red.
The short-term Terror could have all the downsides of the current system at high levels, plus after hitting a predetermined level (50/60/whatever) the Terror gained would increase the sustained Terror. The former could be decreased just from staying near lights/shores (like the ‘pips’ around the wheel in the current build) but to get rid of sustained Terror you’d have to use shore leave or recruiting new members. This would allow more exploration than the current model while still having the ability to build up into a significant problem in long journeys.
Inky, you dont owe anyone any excuses for not liking the game as it is now, or feeling let down by it. Just remember it’s not the final product, there are many changes coming, and the more input you give the better shape the game is gonna be in.
edited by IHNIWTR on 6/19/2014
Nods I know, and I really hope some of the things that I’m currently finding not-so-fun are changed during the process, because there’s so much I DO like about the game!
I love how it looks, and the music, and the atmosphere, and the creatures (when they aren’t eating my ship :p) and all the little details. It’s just overshadowed by the feeling that at the moment everything is just too hard.
Ooh, a thought, maybe there could be difficulty settings? Or an "explorer’s" mode with less terror? (Maybe something that unlocks as a reward for reaching a certain goal in the normal game? Maybe if you chart 70% of the world or something? handwave Thinking out loud, that’s just a vague thought.)
On a completely unrelated note is there a way to toggle the crew portraits? At the moment they add an extra bit of difficulty whenever you go north because they block a good portion of the view. Hehe, maybe that’s intentional, I mean, really I should know better than to head north… (but it would be useful if you could toggle the larger blocks when you’re trying to navigate)
Alternatively, the ability to zoom out a little bit? I know not seeing what’s ahead is part of the atmosphere, but I would be happy to sacrifice a little but of the atmosphere to be able to find those light buoys, at the moment I can’t see them unless I’m basically on top of them, and I can’t turn my leaky bathtub in time to get benefit from them without wasting fuel if I’m even slightly off course. [/ramble]
Yeah, tl;dr: A zoom function, and a UI toggle would be nice :)
edited by Inky Petrel on 6/19/2014
Tbh i’m not really having a problem with food, terror, echoes or fuel. Whilst i had to grind a tiny bit (mainly because enemies are too hard atm) i feel i have made solid progress. I have 2-3 of every type of officer, (including the poisoner for 300e)1500 in my wallet and a couple ship upgrades.
I like having to plan my routes and decide if a quick terror inducing trip is worth it or if i should spend the extra fuel and follow a safer island route. I think the biggest problem i have had is that enemies aren’t worth fighting atm. The enemy pirates do immense damage and it makes retreating the only option.
Also i think the game could benefit from some more permanent rewards so you feel you’re making progress even when you die. Im not sure how buying a new ship currently works (im still in the steamer) but an example would be to let players keep the ships they purchase after the current captain dies. Just something extra to make dying less pain inducing.
[quote=Gwan Solo]
Also i think the game could benefit from some more permanent rewards so you feel you’re making progress even when you die.[/quote]
[color=#009900]We’re revisiting the Legacies, which are really first-pass stuff, in the EMERALD release: http://sunlessseagame.com/progress [/color]
edited by babelfishwars on 6/19/2014
You have a “</span>” tag caught in your link, Alexis.
Oh no he doesn’t!
That was probably the most thrilling edit of my editing career.
While difficulty settings would be a nice idea, allowing people who actually like murderously hard games to go have their challenge without everyone else getting stuck in the early game (or giving up because they got too frustrated), I think it would also add quite a bit of work. Having easy, medium, and hard difficulty would triple the amount of game balance calibration you’d need to do. You wouldn’t need to strike as delicate of a balance on any given level because you wouldn’t need them to suit everyone, but it’s still three times the difficulty-twiddling for the developers.