Balance is always difficult in a game like this. There has to be enough danger and struggle to make things feel like actual accomplishments, but not so much that players feel like advancement is nonexistent or exploration is futile.
Sunless Sea, even at the earliest Beta I could play, had wonderful atmosphere, excellent storytelling, interesting locations, and lots of stuff that could be done. The problem is that all of what I just mentioned is meaningless if nobody feels like they can explore to find the content without a near guarantee of losing any progress they’ve made.
Just got it last night, played around five games so far. I love the atmosphere, the visual design and the writing but I might skip a few updates until the balance gets sorted out.
So far the only things i could reliably kill were the dingy starting pirates, bats and Lifebergs (which bug out for me after about five ‘rounds’ of combat and don’t take any more actions). Everything else lights me up and one-shots me in about three actions, tops (also, why don’t the glowing enemies start already at least partially illuminated? Aiming at a huge glowing crab in a pitch-black environment doesn’t sound that hard, tbh).
Terror increases very fast if you don’t literally hug the shore. One time I gained a point of Terror on the perilous journey from the lighthouse in front of Venderbright to the shore. A bit larger -and visually distict- "the terrors of the zee are less here" zones would be welcome. It also doesn’t seem to do anything until 75-80 when it kills you in two minutes. My least glorious death was getting killed by a Low Barnet pirate at the edge of Wolfstack docks after FOUR of my sailors decided to go for a swim on the road from Prickfinger Wastes to London.
All in all I think with further balance adjustments -which are the point of a Beta- it will be as wonderful gameplay-wise as it is in worldbuilding.
Just played my first game. (And attempted to play a secoind, but more on that later.)
combat was quite confusing at first, and I’d strongly suggest some sort of tutorial on the final proguct. I only fought bats, but they were quite capable of stripping crew and supplies from me before I could touch them.
It looks gorgeous, but I was left feeling rather lost as I explored, but all the ports I found had nothing I could afford nor wanted the few things I’d been able to purchase before leaving London. this isn’t that big a deal, as I assume that the first run in a roguelike will be nothing but wasted work and bad survival choices.
I eventually ran out of fuel and food while fleeing a pirate and crab combo that chased me up to the NORTHern edge of the map. After the inevitable death by mutiny, I chose to retain my surgeon (the only other officer I had was the ferret.)
While starting out, I selected a new background, name, and avatar, and then noticed a box at the side with the apparent Navigator’s boon for connecting the Fallen London account to Sunless Sea. I clicked it and my screeen went black. The sound of water lapping continued, but the music stopped. I could not Alt-Tab out. Alt-F4 did nothing, nor did the three-finger salute. In fact, even hitting the soft power button did not break this crash and I had to flip the manual switch on my computer and go through the litany of scoldings for abusing my machine so upon startup.
[quote=Mordaine Barimen]
While starting out, I selected a new background, name, and avatar, and then noticed a box at the side with the apparent Navigator’s boon for connecting the Fallen London account to Sunless Sea. I clicked it and my screeen went black. [/quote]
Just tested this, and didn’t happen to me. So might have been an isolated incident. Dare you try again?
I’ve been absent for a while due to having to earn a living in real life sob - so was wondering whether the following has been mentioned - don’t want to flag things that have already been mentioned:
Is it no longer possible to run it in windowed mode? ← oh, everyone’s said that.
The pause between clicking ‘Get new stories’ and something happening (if there is new content, it’s pretty responsive if you’re up to date) is long enough that I wondered if I’d misclicked, or that was the response when you were up to date, and it started doing something a split second before I started clicking around which may have upset it. I’m impatient - but others will be too. edited by babelfishwars on 6/18/2014
[color=#009900]Responses![/color]
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[color=#009900]Combat - we hear you, don’t worry. We amped up the difficulty for launch, after constant feedback that it was too easy after the earliest stages of the game. We suspected it might have gone a couple of notches too far, and it absolutely sounds like it has. We’ll be calming the beasties down a bit, sooner rather than later. The game is intended to be unforgiving, but not throw-your-hands-up-where-do-I-even-start-with-this, definitely.[/color]
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[color=#009900]Windowed mode - we removed the Unity launcher window because it kept trying to make people use resolutions we don’t support, and windowed mode got lost along the way. I suspect we can bring it back, although it may mean a trip to the in-game config menu.[/color]
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[color=#009900]Bugs - if something is obviously broken, it is super helpful if you use sunlesssea@failbettergames.com to report it. This makes fixing issues much quicker and more efficient, which means more fixes and more content for everyone more quickly. Crashes and graphical issues, we really want to know about, but we will need to dig into details. Spacemarine, you’re a veteran bug reporter of repute, and it’s a shame if your reports get lost in the forum stream; Mordaine, do mail us with details of your system, and the output log (if you can’t find it, the bug autoreply will tell you where) because this sounds like literally the most severe crash in the history of the game.[/color]
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[color=#009900]Protip: do keep plinking that Get New Stories button to update content, which also includes combat rebalances and whatnot. There’s already a couple of day 0 content fixes, and you can expect more this evening.[/color]
I bought the game earlier today, and I’ve been playing it for a few hours, but I still haven’t managed to GET anywhere. I eventually gave up on keeping the token and switched Merciful mode on, because otherwise I was just going to quit altogether. My first impressions are these (and I have only been playing for a few hours, so they might change):
When you first start the game there REALLY needs to be some sort of short tutorial. The little notes scattered around the place are helpful, but the lack of any sort of guidance meant I’d died twice before I’d even figured out how to FIND anything.
*Monsters are really overpowered anywhere except the very early area near London. I’m lucky if I can make ONE trip past the first orange line on the chart without those stupid giant red crabs killing me (200 hit points is too many, and it’s impossible to even run away from them because one hit is a kill) Or a ship, or some other thing. I get that they’re big scary sea beasts, but if there isn’t even a chance then it’s not fun.
*Terror rises WAY too fast, given that the only options I’ve found to reduce it only remove maybe 5 points, and even if I spend ALL of the echoes I manage to earn on terror reduction it still rises faster than you can get rid of it.
Because terror rises so fast there’s no TIME to try and earn any echoes to upgrade anything, or find better options for reduction (I assume they exist somewhere? otherwise the game is unwinnable) It’s just an exercise in frustration.
*There’s only 1 way to really earn echoes, and it involves traveling across the map and spending more on terror-reduction and supplies than you earn. How are you meant to earn enough money to upgrade anything? Genuinely curious, is there a step I’m missing?
*There aren’t any low-level upgrades. And all the options for crew/buffs are locked or limited.
Basically, first impressions are disappointment and frustration. Yes, the world is very cool, very atmospheric and pretty, and I imagine the content would be too, if I got to SEE any of it, but at the moment I can’t get far enough to appreciate it. Even with merciful mode on terror eventually rises to a point where you can’t possibly win. edited by Inky Petrel on 6/18/2014
[quote=Inky Petrel]*Terror rises WAY too fast, given that the only options I’ve found to reduce it only remove maybe 5 points, and even if I spend ALL of the echoes I manage to earn on terror reduction it still rises faster than you can get rid of it.
Because terror rises so fast there’s no TIME to try and earn any echoes to upgrade anything, or find better options for reduction (I assume they exist somewhere? otherwise the game is unwinnable) It’s just an exercise in frustration.[/quote]
I agree that Terror management is rather challenging, but the trick seems to be to avoid letting it rise in the first place. It only rises when you’re in the dark - the well-lit areas around buoys, or near coastlines, or in the rays of lighthouses, can be navigated without Terror. That said, these areas can be very narrow, and Terror rises so quickly that you can drift off course slightly and earn a point or two before you have time to correct yourself.
nods Yes, but even staying on the well-lit routes you HAVE to cross the dark sometimes to find anything, or avoid the impossible-to-kill monsters, and there’s no real way to claw it back once it’s there.
Maybe if terror REDUCED slowly in the lit areas, that would make sense. And you could then balance between staying in the well-lit areas and using fuel and food while you wait (and also risking pirates etc finding you) or making a dash across the dark.
When I started I assumed that was how it would work, and I got a bit of a surprise when the light didn’t make terror go down at all. Maybe it could reduce more slowly the more terrified the crew are, to encourage you to keep it low? (Obviously changing the game mechanics at this point is pretty unlikely, I’m just saying that was what I was expecting, because it would have made sense to me)
I really WANT to enjoy this game, I’ve been watching it develop and been super excited reading the blog. I haven’t had money to play until now, hence the disappointment now when I can’t really sink my teeth into the content. edited by Inky Petrel on 6/18/2014
Anyone else have a bug that lets them continuously give the Khanate Admiralty report? Quite ‘game breaking’ if you keep clicking as it will give you 75 echoes each time. Ill try and remember to send the bug report, but im off to work now so it will have to be later.
I agree about terror. I think terror is necessary in a game like that, all about exploring and dealing with unknown and dark space, but it feels that is implemented a bit roughly for now, and for that I mean that not everything is logical (I would expect, for example, that terror would decrease if we are in relatively well-lit areas or if the ship is close to safe and well-known areas (which by definition should reassure the crew).
Yay Windowed mode! I don’t mind hitting an in game config menu to turn it on. But without it makes it hard to operate on two screens like I normally do.
I also agree with the point about crew sent home as a prize crew, they should be waiting for you in dock to arrive home and rejoin you.
Difficulty may be easier to manage (from the playet side) if there was an in-game display with a con(sider) rating. If you’ve spotted something, it’s likely one of your crew/officers had heard tales. “Bound shark. All we can do is flee and pray.” “Corsairs. They won’t be expecting a ship this tough or a crew with this much fight in 'em.”
If you can kill bats you can reduce terror by one or two points. Not much if you have really high terror but useful enough managing low terror from Venderbight runs.
I’m running in Merciful Mode - I don’t think there is anyway to get past Angler Crabs.
Bug report mailed off, with detailed system info and the output_log.txt included.
Sorry for not thinking to email a proper bug report. My excuse is that 3 am is not unlike equipping a Talkative Rattus Faber in regards to Watchfulness.
A dying request; it’d be nice to have an option to quit to menu after your ship goes down, and then be able to create a new Captain once you continue. It’s possible that one can just pull up the menu and force this once you’ve selected your dying bequest (I haven’t tried) but as it is, I feel trapped into starting a new game before I can quit. It’s a minor thing, but it’d improve my quality of life; just a button that says "Start New Game Later" or something.
Oh, also wanted to mention that on my tiny-screened netbook (1024x600), I can play the game fine for the most part – it handles resizing well, and while I’m likely seeing less of the zea than other captains, I can still navigate around, and scroll through menus. The one thing that doesn’t cooperate well is the fighting interface. Some things are displayed underneath other interface elements, and while for the most part I can see what I think is everything, the bottom of the screen cuts off, including (apparently) the display of the monster’s hit-points, crew, hull, what-have you. This makes combat even more exciting, as I just have to learn by trial and (lots-of) error how much I have to hit something to kill it, and whether or not I can kill it in my next shot, or just need to start dodging. edited by BenTGaidin on 6/18/2014
[color=#009900]re: dying - there’s some stuff coming here that might make it irrelevant, but a Quit button sounds fair since we autosave then anyway[/color]
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[color=#009900]I should note that the minimum resolution we’ve built for is 1280x768 (we just published min system specs! http://store.steampowered.com/app/304650 ) so I’m pleased but surprised it runs that well at all on 1024x600[/color]
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[color=#009900]3 am is an excuse for basically everything.[/color]
[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]Responses![/color]
[color=#009900]Windowed mode - we removed the Unity launcher window because it kept trying to make people use resolutions we don’t support, and windowed mode got lost along the way. I suspect we can bring it back, although it may mean a trip to the in-game config menu.[/color]
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[color=#009900]Bugs - if something is obviously broken, it is super helpful if you use sunlesssea@failbettergames.com to report it. This makes fixing issues much quicker and more efficient, which means more fixes and more content for everyone more quickly. Crashes and graphical issues, we really want to know about, but we will need to dig into details. Spacemarine, you’re a veteran bug reporter of repute, and it’s a shame if your reports get lost in the forum stream; Mordaine, do mail us with details of your system, and the output log (if you can’t find it, the bug autoreply will tell you where) because this sounds like literally the most severe crash in the history of the game.[/color][/quote]
I’ll try to submit a report this evening about my black-screen flashing, as well. So will 1920x1200 never be a supported resolution? If so, I’ll watch for a build with windowed mode available as I’m easily annoyed by stretched graphics. I’d even take letter-boxing!
Just a short note on combat: I’ve been able to do fine against bats, pinnacles, wee and big crabs. Having decent veils and iron is very useful, so don’t despair - it might take a couple of goes before you’re able to rescue a stat. from a dead character and import it into a new one that allows for a better combat experience. However, my pages and hearts are terrible, which means I often screw up island-based random encounters, but at least I can ensure that combat in the proximity of London is do-able. One tip is: smash them before they smash you, don’t give them a chance to inflict any damage, so you should be doing your damnest to get over the initial 50 illumination threshold to fire off your salvos - you can stick 2 in a row, which I find sees off most crustacean-based scoundrels. And pirates.
[color=#009900]Combat - we hear you, don’t worry. We amped up the difficulty for launch, after constant feedback that it was too easy after the earliest stages of the game. We suspected it might have gone a couple of notches too far, and it absolutely sounds like it has. We’ll be calming the beasties down a bit, sooner rather than later. The game is intended to be unforgiving, but not throw-your-hands-up-where-do-I-even-start-with-this, definitely.[/color]
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Whew. I think there just needs to be more of a curve. The way the game is set up now, at least, there are basically three phases your character goes through:
Total "how does my boat work" newbie. At this stage you’re fighting Low Barnet pirates, maybe the baby crabs, maybe bat swarms on Venderbright runs. You do this for a while until you have upgraded weapons and officers.
"Ok, getting the hang of this" – you’ve got a full complement of officers, maybe some nice weapons and upgrades, but you’re still using the basic steamer because holy **** are new ships expensive. At this stage you’re making lots of relatively long voyages, out to Palmerston or the Khanate, trying to earn cash and manage your terror and expenses and exploring the content. Honestly, I feel like most of the game should be accessible at this phase, and most of the opponents relatively farmable (otherwise you’ll never make it to stage 3). Not everything – some stuff needs to be saved for a challenge in stage 3 – but if you can’t reliably put away a Bound Shark at this stage you’ll get killed and have to start over every other time you pass by Port Cecil.
Fancyboat to Endgame – I’ve never actually managed to get this far but it seems like once you’ve got the fancy upgraded ship you’re at the current endgame. There’ll need to be a lot more content added to make the grind from fancyboat to one of the true endgame goals (i.e., Zong of the Zee) achievable.
Anyway, just my impressions so far. I can see the need for things to be harder for players at the Fancyboat stage, but I think most players right now are trying to get to that stage and don’t see how they’re supposed to do it.
Other comments and thoughts:
When will we see the "extra downloadable copy of Sunless Sea to share with a friend" ? Or has that already been sent out and I didn’t realize it?
I agree with the guy who said the glim-lamps don’t seem to do much to justify their cost (although it is easier to raise veils than mirrors so that’s a slight benefit). Maybe add some terror-gain mitigation in? I mean, you have this fancy lamp . . .
It would be nice if there were multiple autosave slots so we could run different games in parallel. As it is to start a new non-Merciful game, I have to save over my old one . . .
rewards from long-distance voyages feel like they need some slight upward tweaking. The Blind Bruiser is getting a great deal when he sends me out to Khan’s Heart – he’s paying me less than my fuel costs for the trip alone!
Game needs more dog pet options. It’s all cats and rodents. Why no love for Canis?
[quote=Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]Anyway, just my impressions so far. I can see the need for things to be harder for players at the Fancyboat stage, but I think most players right now are trying to get to that stage and don’t see how they’re supposed to do it.
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[color=#009900]Don’t worry - we’re adding more ways to get stuff, every week. Content has to give rewards, and the game will get easier as EA continues. It will always feel too slow for many people, up until the point - as in the beta - where players suddenly complain that they have no difficulty staying alive (because their skill has been increasing along with the gently decreasing difficulty). As someone pointed out upthread, this is generally a happier approach than starting too easy and tightening the screws.[/color]
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[color=#009900]I do want to be clear about this - the game is not supposed to be easy, even at the starting stage. This was something we committed to from the start of KS. It will get easier than it is now, but our models are games where one mistake can ruin your day.[/color]
[quote=Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]
Other comments and thoughts:
When will we see the "extra downloadable copy of Sunless Sea to share with a friend" ? Or has that already been sent out and I didn’t realize it?
[/quote=Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]
[color=#009900]Whoops, that mail’s been sitting on hold since yesterday. We’ll send it.[/color]