Fallen Cities (A Great Many Spoilers)

Fallen London
301

Thank you very much for the enlightenments regarding the silver tree, I’m a little behind on that page.

I founded my theory about the fourth city on her ambition to get her son to power, as marrying the head of a rival nation to make him heir to the throne, I think selling a city for it and afterwards talking her son into rebellion against the masters quite fits her.

As to the love stories, I just finished the Jack storyline and finally made the link to Flipz contribution about the clue of the Sunligh. &quotThe first thaught restraint&quot points to the failed attempt to produce romance thru fear after the fall. &quotthe second betrayed&quot refers to selling a love that was not romance. &quotthe third taught us hunger&quot means still no romance to &quotfeed&quot from. &quotthe fourth we remade&quot could be a hint at a new deal, when they discovered they were betrayed again (mother/son), they remade the deal for the princess/sculptor. &quotThe fifth will live on in the heart of the Sun&quot is the first honest bargain since the first city, so maybe london gets rewarded for it…

Quite adventurous I know
edited by MatthewtheMagnificent on 7/12/2013

302

[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]On a lark, I started digging into some things that Zmflavius noted, and I think he’s on to something with the Epic of Gilgamesh. I had discarded this earlier because of the Silk Road clues, but there’s enough evidence for me to change my tune. While everything is always fuzzy, there’s quite a lot to point to Gilgamesh as the Manager of the Royal Bethlehem/Priest-King of the First City, Enkidu as the Trader/King with 100 Hearts, and Uruk as the First City, now Polythreme. [/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]As always, Wikipedia is invaluable in speeding up research, but given that I’m not being thorough about checking WP’s sources, take all of this with the appropriate grain of salt. Consider the following from the Epic of Gilgamesh:[/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- Gilgamesh is getting too wild and crazy, so the gods create Enkidu out of clay to keep him occupied.[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- After being &quottamed&quot by seven days with a prostitute, Enkidu meets Gilgamesh via the help of a trapper and they become best friends, with the word &quotlove&quot being used an awful lot between the two.[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- They travel from Uruk to the Cedars of Lebanon to defeat a demon there, allowing them to cut down cedars and bring them back to Uruk to build a gate.[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- Because Gilgamesh spurns Eanna(Ishtar)'s sexual advances, she sends the bull of heaven after them. Divine intervention saves Gilgamesh, but not Enkidu. [/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- Gilgamesh’s is crazed with grief, and decides to seek eternal life. He visits Uttnapishm (effectively Noah) and hears of a plant that grows on the bottom of the ocean that will give him eternal life. He straps stones to his feet and walks along the bottom of the ocean to get it, but just as he’s returned to land, a giant sea serpent eats it.[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- In a disputed 12th tablet, Enkidu is mysteriously alive again, and Gilgamesh asks him to go to the underworld to get some items for him. [/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]Clearly, there are a few things right off that are notable – the crossroads in the desert (Uruk), the cedars (Lebanon), the figures in the love story, the crazed grief at the death of a loved one, the plant of eternal life, and heck, a man made from clay. [/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]Now, looking at Uruk: [/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- The city is dotted with temples, including a massive limestone temple and a stone-mosaic temple covered in murals, along with statues inset into the walls, much like the temple in Polythreme[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- Alabaster ceramics are common relics from Uruk[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- Multiple temples kept a ritual fire burning[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- While in the middle of the desert, Uruk was a port city on the Euphrates[/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- Its rulers were known as priest-kings. The temples of the city were its reason for being (&quotheld together by faith&quot), and drove the urbanization of the populace.[/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]My working theory goes something like this:[/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]Failbetter has had some fun with Enkidu, and made him part of a contingent of the ceramic warriors from China brought to life and sent west with silk. The clay men, therefore, actually started out as clay, including the King with 100 Hearts/Enkidu. After bringing silk to the west (where, as the Manager says, nobody had ever seen anyone like him), priest-king Gilgamesh loves him (platonically or otherwise), goes to the cedars in the mountains of Lebanon with him, comes back, and is so distraught by the death of Enkidu that he makes a deal with the Bazaar for Hesperidian Cider or some other plant of immortality, and in return the spirit of Enkidu is returned to clay, only this time it’s to animate the entire city. [/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]Problems:[/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- The eye temple. *** Brak, which was part of the Uruk trading network, is the only place with an eye temple. [/color]
[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]- Young when Babylon fell. This would require the reversal long discussed, that the phrase has been inverted accidentally.[/color]
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[color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]Still a work in progress…[/color]
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303

There’s some damn convincing theories being shared here! As for me, well, I was tootling around looking up something quite unrelated, when I found a bird/cat/snake triumvirate like the priest-kings of Neathy-Xibalba - although they’re not Mayan. Rather, Wiki describes the metaphysics of the Incas dividing the cosmos into the celestial realm (represented by a condor), the intermediary mortal world (represented by a puma,) and the underworld (represented by a snake.) Which rather sound like the Celestials, Bazaarines and Nocturnals, now I think about it. But, in any case, I wonder if this cosmology influenced Cat, Red Bird and Snake - perhaps they’re invading rulers, or gaolers, or… well, I could speculate forever.

304

Not sure if this is any help, but…
These images on the site are named ruinsfirst, ruinssecond and ruinsthird. You may have a look.

305

[quote=Aximillio]Not sure if this is any help, but…
These images on the site are named ruinsfirst, ruinssecond and ruinsthird. You may have a look.
[/quote]

[li]

Very nice, and in two of them largely confirm what we know. The First City one continues to be maddening, as it is unmistakably either Helenistic or Roman architecture, which runs completely counter to the Uruk/Nagar/Eye Temple facts. If the First City could simultaneously fall at around 2900 BC and 200 BC, we’d be set.

306

[li]

On this one, just idly speculating, but I wonder if the bargain that sold the Third City (which I’m still holding as Chichen Itza) involved three mortals whose deal involved killing the gods of Xibalba and becoming immortal like them, with the &quothidden cost&quot (in the words of the Duchess) being an eternal hunger for human flesh. That would give us the dead gods of the nightmares and the flesh hunger in the Fidgeting Writer story.

307

hey guys, here’s a question: who is the Master we know the least about? Aside from the discussion about Chimes from last page, what Master does the players have the least amount of interaction with, the one we never really get to meet or work with/against? I’d say it’s Mr. Heart: as far as I know, other than its stall in the Labyrinth and the little flavor text in the dagger-key item from this year’s Feast, Mr. Heart is basically a non-entity.

308

[quote=Michael Bacon][color=rgb(194, 194, 194)]priest-king Gilgamesh loves him (platonically or otherwise), goes to the cedars in the mountains of Lebanon with him, comes back, and is so distraught by the death of Enkidu that he makes a deal with the Bazaar for Hesperidian Cider or some other plant of immortality, and in return the spirit of Enkidu is returned to clay, only this time it’s to animate the entire city. [/color]
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The Cider wouldn’t have been involved. The Cider is a creation of the Capering Relicker (whom I believe is Satan, or at least shares some qualities), and I’m fairly certain the Masters want the Cider, but don’t know the creator is the Capering Relicker.[/li][li]

309

[quote=OPG][quote=Michael Bacon][color=rgb(194,194,194)]priest-king Gilgamesh loves him (platonically or otherwise), goes to the cedars in the mountains of Lebanon with him, comes back, and is so distraught by the death of Enkidu that he makes a deal with the Bazaar for Hesperidian Cider or some other plant of immortality, and in return the spirit of Enkidu is returned to clay, only this time it’s to animate the entire city. [/color]
[li][/quote]
The Cider wouldn’t have been involved. The Cider is a creation of the Capering Relicker (whom I believe is Satan, or at least shares some qualities), and I’m fairly certain the Masters want the Cider, but don’t know the creator is the Capering Relicker.[/li][li][/quote]

Well, they already have some source of the Cider. Not only is it obtainable at the Bazaar, we also know from a certain conversation between two Masters and the Gracious Widow that the Cider the lucky soul who shelled out quite a bit of cash for in the Silver Tree Kickstarter was a order completed by Mr. Wines. (The important bits are below, but for those who wish to read (or re-read) the conversation in it’s entierty, you may go here: https://twitter.com/EchoBazaar/silver-tree-chat )[/li]
Mr Wines: But to specifics. The finest drink in the Neath is usually found in our cellars. But! not for much longer…

Mr Wines: For we have received an order, paid in advance, for a flask of a most particular and delicious drink from apples. We will deliver shortly!

Mr Pages: By the voids! Can it be true, Mr Wines? A bottle of the Hesperidean? Loose in London? I am gastroflabberated!

Gracious Widow: A bottle of the WHAT?

Gracious Widow: This is UNFATHOMABLE. What were you thinking, Mr WInes

Mr Wines: We were thinking of rolling around in a bath of money, which is also filled with money.

[li][/li][li]
edited by Allanon Kisigar on 8/29/2013

310

Well now, this is intriguing.

This doesn’t rule out either of our theories, but it does make things potentially more interesting.[li]

EDIT: Although, this makes me wonder if there are multiple ways of making Hesperidian Cider, or perhaps equivalents. The HC originating from the Bazaar I can certainly see come from apples (see Greek mythology for more), and the Widow is awfully interested in peaches, and the CR uses cherries, and can grow fruit and other plants in the Neath.
edited by OPG on 8/29/2013[/li][li]EDIT.MK2: Also, I interpret the &quotBazaar&quot tab in the game not as commerce with the Bazaar itself, but using the Bazaar as a landmark where people go to trade. For example, you can purchase Contraband items, like London Street Signs, at the Bazaar. Just because it uses the Bazaar for trade doesn’t mean the Masters know it. Besides, the Masters want more cider from the Capering Relicker, meanig they already have some.[/li][li]
edited by OPG on 8/29/2013

311

Good day, gentlemen. That may not be directly related to the current topic of discussion, but nevertheless important in the search of First City’s identity. In great many places i read about invention of coinage around 700 BC and restrictions this fact places on the time of First Fall. But today i had chat with Numismatrix and she said:

&quotSomething different now. Have you heard of the First City Coins? Little silver things, cedar tree on one side. I deal in them occasionally. They’re not from the First City itself, of course. The actual coins are no more than thirty years old. But they represent something ancient. Fragments of a primal power, locked away in the Masters’ vaults since the deal that bought the First City. Of course, the Masters don’t buy or sell that stuff any more. They gamble it sometimes, though. A game called the Marvellous.&quot

So, maybe this was already mentioned, but first city coins are not coins of the First City, therefore First City can be older than 700 BC.
edited by BrainFreeze on 10/7/2013

312

Welcome, welcome. Your observation is quite correct. I think it’s been suggested that this passage was inserted in response to the coinage arguments in this thread. There is sub-subterranean evidence for this, but it’s Fate-locked, so I can’t say what it is here.

There is in fact an excellent independent reason to believe the First City predates coinage: the Second City is indisputably Amarna, and so fell in or around the 14th century BCE.
edited by Flyte on 10/7/2013

313

Having been Counting the Days like mad recently, my interest has been piqued with regards to the role of currency and commerce in regards to the Neath.

Do the First City Coins represent the power of dreams? Dreams are very important to two of the survivors of the First City, and they are also used to play the Marvellous. They’re also described as &quotfaintly sinister&quot, which I find amusing. Oh, and the First City Coins are reprints, as there aren’t many originals left (as told to me by the King himself).[li]

EDIT: Speaking of the Marvellous, it seems appropriate that one would gamble for someone’s Heart’s Desire using a currency derived from dreams. Also, the King was a man, so the Gilgamesh theory may need to be redone.
edited by OPG on 10/8/2013

314

Well, that was fun! After discussing the First and Second City elsewhere on the forum, I decided to expand on my quote-collection so that I could remember everything that’s ever been said about the prelapsarian cities. Hopefully this doesn’t break any of Failbetter’s rules – I tried not to include whole storylets or to give any context, so that if anyone wants the full story they’ll have to play the game themselves. But when theorizing, it’s nice for everyone to be on the same page.

[li]

http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/15715.html

Obviously I don’t think I got everything. If there’s something important I’ve missed, could you shoot it my way? I’ve also put in Wikipedia links as relevant, and if you’ve picked up a possible reference I haven’t, I’d love to know what it is.

Not everything is consistent. The First City is a bit of a mess. I still lean towards it being Mesopotamian, and Tell Brak in particular is tempting, but the Babylon and Silk Road references confuse the matter – and set a time limit on the Second City that my personal favorite (Amarna) wouldn’t be able to make. Still I’ve tried to include everything that might be relevant, including the Second City is probably Egyptian.

In fact, are we all agreed that the Second City is probably Egyptian, the Third City probably Mesoamerican, and the Fourth City Mongolian (and confirmed to be Karakorum)? It’s just the First City that’s elusive. I remember when my best guest was Phoenician, but I guess roughly Middle Eastern is still the order of the day.

315

Sounds solid, Mr G - thanks terribly for your hard work! As regards how flexible we can be in our dating, I’d say that the Babylon line was always a bit of doggerel of unknown meaning… the Silk Road’s a puzzler, but those passages might refer to some very early predecessor of the established silk trade, which would not be outside the bounds of historic possibility.

316

Wonderful work! This caught my eye in a way it hadn’t before:[li]

&quot…the monkeys howl, the monkeys burn; their pens scratch words of red and black…’&quot

In the Mayan Hero Twins story, the twins trick their older brothers and change them to monkeys, who continue in the story as howler monkey scribes. Many iconic depictions of the Hero Twins show howler monkey scribes around them.

My supposition about the Second City was that Meroe would have been a phenomenal fake-out on the part of Failbetter – complete with Pharaohs and gods and temples and pyramids but without actually being in Egypt. That said, the more I read the First City content, the more Uruk stands out in my mind.

I do believe that most of the Fall stories will involve either historical or mythical characters. The argument for Uruk and Gilgamesh as the core of the First City story has been laid out elsewhere.

317

[quote=Trodgmey ]Wonderful work! This caught my eye in a way it hadn’t before:[li]

&quot…the monkeys howl, the monkeys burn; their pens scratch words of red and black…’&quot

In the Mayan Hero Twins story, the twins trick their older brothers and change them to monkeys, who continue in the story as howler monkey scribes. Many iconic depictions of the Hero Twins show howler monkey scribes around them.[/quote][/li]
Very interesting – with all the references to Xibalba and well-attended sporting events, the Hero Twins story is a good one to keep in mind, and the Howler Monkey Gods are an excellent catch. [li]

318

So, do we have any sort of consensus on the previous city locations? The thread seems to change every 5 minutes, and I will admit I got more than a little lost around half way through trying to read it. If someone could be so kind as to post a quick summary of the current favourite location guesses I would be very much obliged. I’m terribly curious, and it’s fascinating, but sadly I have trouble keeping things straight in my head because of a mental condition (yes, actually in RL) so I hope nobody minds my asking :heart:

Edit: also, every time Xibalba is mentioned I just keep thinking of that scene in The Road to El Dorado :p

Edit again: Ok, so reading through, it seems that there is confirmation (via Silver Tree, which I MUST get around to playing) that the Fourth City was definitely Karakorum.
Flyte is certain that the Second was Armana but not everyone is as sure.
The First might be Uruk, or Tel Brak, (or not) but was probably somewhere in the Middle East?
I got a bit mixed up for the Third, somewhere Mesoamerican? was there a location pinned down?

Is this a correct summary? Wow that was tough to read through, excellent, but tough. I learned (and promptly forgot) more than I’ve ever known about ancient cities. Fascinating! (If only I could keep it wistful). I am in awe of all of your knowledge and ability to connect the pieces :heart:
edited by Inky Petrel on 1/4/2014

319

[color=#009900]We haven’t commented on any of these questions: but rumour has accreted in this thread over years, and with the Mysteries tab closing, I want to play fair.[li][/color]
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[color=#009900]Archaeology and history both have a nasty habit of invalidating historical fiction when people dig up more information; and we did the relevant research to, I would say, about the standard of your average moderately conscientious historical novel. I’m not aware of any extant major inconsistencies (I am aware of all kinds of niggles about Victorian historical accuracy, but as I’ve said before, there were no sorrow-spiders in Dickens) but some will probably show up. This is part of the reason we asked about ‘continent’ rather than ‘city’.[/color]
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[color=#009900]And I should add that (a) there are some intentional red herrings and (b) the history of the Fallen London universe isn’t exactly the same as real history. The points of divergence are usually obvious, but FL is fiction. Karakorum was not stolen by bats.[/color]
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[color=#009900]A few points which have grown legs in this thread, especially re: Trodgmey’s extensively researched posts.[/color]
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[color=#009900]First City Coins. It isn’t a mistake that these exist; it was a mistake when someone put one in the amber under Flute Street, and we had to retcon that out.[/color]
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[color=#009900]The Silk Road. I’m confident that there’s nothing in our content that says that the First City post-dates the Silk Road trade network; and I’m confident that it’s far from impossible for a visitor wearing silk to have been in the West before there was regular commerce, particularly with fictional licence. If I’m wrong, then do drop us a line at support@failbettergames.com and we’ll treat it as a content bug. :-)[/color]
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[color=#009900]First City Architecture. There are limits to what reads in a 100x130 image. The First City image from the Forgotten Quarter had to be immediately identifiable and distinctive from the Second City image, and (without giving anything away) ‘reads casually as Mesopotamian’ looks rather a lot like ‘reads casually as Egyptian’ to modern non-specialist eyes (NB my own eyes are modern and non-specialist). There is a reason the architecture in the FQ and in Polythreme is not the ‘mud brick’ described in the Hundred’s memories: but that reason, has, I think, never yet surfaced. [/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)]So this is an amalgam of red herring, story point and pragmatic convenience which has confused a minority of folk: sorry about that![/color]

320

Personally glad to hear this, because I’ve butted heads with folks over whether nominees for past cities had to have vanished in real life!

I had wondered about that one deceiving coin!

Actually, one question about the Mysteries closing shop: I’m assuming you won’t be going through everyone’s entries one-by-one? If not, how precisely do our answers have to be formatted?
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 1/4/2014