Fallen Cities (A Great Many Spoilers)

Further evidence for the third city being Aztec instead of Myan. There was that earlier mention of the third city’s black mirrors. When you set out to zee you get this snippet:

Eastwards down the Stolen River"

The River flows somber to the uttermost ends of the Neath…you pass the crouching bulk of Watchmaker’s Hill to the South: the lamps of the Observatory shine softly amber at its summit. To the North, the distant blink of the Prickfinger Wastes, glittering like an empire of knives. Will-o’-the-wisps and mudlarks’ Davy-lamps glow along the shore of Bugsby’s Marshes. Then London is behind you, and the Unterzee stretches broad and dark before you, black as an Aztec mirror, stippled with moonish light. Back in the foggy embrace of London, it’s easy to forget just how big the Neath really is…

This could be a coincidence but in Fallen London things seldom are.

Not just wikipedia, even the much more renowned Encyclopædia Britannica references the Eye Temple of Tell B(i)rak.

Btw, isn’t it curious that after so many people on this thread pointed out the coinage problem, the Numismatrix turns up with an explanation? And that, after mentioning here that Kublai Khan would’ve been already dead at the fall of Xanadu, we get to know that “someone was brought back from Hell”. The question is: had the writers thought that all through from the beginning (which would increase my respect for them even more) or are they actually very carefully reading this thread to spot possible “historical plot holes” and fix them in time (which would also be very clever)? :)[/quote]

Should the second hypothesis be true, it would be very flattering for the thread’s contributors _

[quote=LucasDixon]Further evidence for the third city being Aztec instead of Myan. There was that earlier mention of the third city’s black mirrors. When you set out to zee you get this snippet:

Eastwards down the Stolen River"

The River flows somber to the uttermost ends of the Neath…you pass the crouching bulk of Watchmaker’s Hill to the South: the lamps of the Observatory shine softly amber at its summit. To the North, the distant blink of the Prickfinger Wastes, glittering like an empire of knives. Will-o’-the-wisps and mudlarks’ Davy-lamps glow along the shore of Bugsby’s Marshes. Then London is behind you, and the Unterzee stretches broad and dark before you, black as an Aztec mirror, stippled with moonish light. Back in the foggy embrace of London, it’s easy to forget just how big the Neath really is…

This could be a coincidence but in Fallen London things seldom are.[/quote]
It might be a false lead, as most things we know about the Third City, e.g. the importance of maize and cinnabar, clearly hint at it being Mayan. Also, the dating issue: the Aztec civilization was at its peak at the time the Fourth City fell… while the “Classic period” of Mayan civilization ended 1000 years before London fell - “The Third City seems to have been acquired a thousand years ago.”

There’s another thing: the Mayan were the only Mesoamerican civilization with a fully-developed writing script (“Aztec writing is not considered to be a complete writing system that can communicate everything that can be expressed verbally and understood without a great deal of contextual information. This is because there is no complete set of characters that map to every verbal element in Nahuatl”). And that seems to be as important to the Bazaar as economic strength.

And let’s not forget the five wells… Hopelchén actually meaning “Place of Five Wells” is really too big a coincidence to be cast aside.

A rare success for speaking to the Dean of Neocartography –

Further support for the Second City as Amarna, where all worship except the worship of Aten was banned.

[quote=Patrick Reding]The symbols are clearly meant to be heiroglyphics, likely meant to be read phonetically. If you dig up one of the little graves, you find [color=rgb(255, 255, 255)]a mummified cat, although the narration doesn’t recognise it for what it is[/color].
edited by Patrick Reding on 4/15/2012[/quote]

OK, who here can read hieroglyphs? Because I will bet 77 silver coins that the symbols mentioned were not pulled out of thin air by our esteemed writers… :)

[quote=Quil][quote=Patrick Reding]The symbols are clearly meant to be heiroglyphics, likely meant to be read phonetically. If you dig up one of the little graves, you find [color=rgb(255, 255, 255)]a mummified cat, although the narration doesn’t recognise it for what it is[/color].
edited by Patrick Reding on 4/15/2012[/quote]

OK, who here can read hieroglyphs? Because I will bet 77 silver coins that the symbols mentioned were not pulled out of thin air by our esteemed writers… :)[/quote]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have the means to read them, but not the time to go and compile them all. Seriously, get me a list, and I’ll see what I can do.

The symbols on the gravestones aren’t words at all, they are rows and rows of precisely-carved images. Stylized hawks and over-sized lizards; something which must surely be the sun; a boat with a single sail; water poured from a jar. Everywhere, twined around and between everything, there are cats curled up as if asleep. And what’s that in the corner of the oldest stone? A row of tiny cloaked and hooded figures, one bearing a goblet?


Armed with the storylet text and Wikipedia, I have found:

Hawk - lots of options; the most “hawklike” seems to be the symbol for Horus though, which is not too illuminating (see here)
Lizard (crocodile?)- I3, I4 or I5 from here. Of these, I5 would seem to have the most intriguing connotations?
Sun - Rather generic, probably just means literally “sun”? See here
Boat with single sail - this is so specific I can’t help but think it’s a clue. The only single-sailed boat I can find is P2 here
Water pouring from a jar - Sounds like W15 here
Sleeping cat - I can’t find anything that’s a sleeping cat rather than a seated cat (see here) so may be decorative element rather than word?
Figure holding a goblet - Again, I can’t find anything (see lists here and here) that’s a figure specifically holding a goblet; this may be a picture, rather than a hieroglyph

Any good?

I could be wrong but I vaguely remember a storylet that gave some information about two dark skinned sisters on a boat in a vast sea. Keyword there is vaguely. Does anyone know what I’m talking about?

[quote=Quil]The symbols on the gravestones aren’t words at all, they are rows and rows of precisely-carved images. Stylized hawks and over-sized lizards; something which must surely be the sun; a boat with a single sail; water poured from a jar. Everywhere, twined around and between everything, there are cats curled up as if asleep. And what’s that in the corner of the oldest stone? A row of tiny cloaked and hooded figures, one bearing a goblet?


Armed with the storylet text and Wikipedia, I have found:

Hawk - lots of options; the most “hawklike” seems to be the symbol for Horus though, which is not too illuminating (see here)
Lizard (crocodile?)- I3, I4 or I5 from here. Of these, I5 would seem to have the most intriguing connotations?
Sun - Rather generic, probably just means literally “sun”? See here
Boat with single sail - this is so specific I can’t help but think it’s a clue. The only single-sailed boat I can find is P2 here
Water pouring from a jar - Sounds like W15 here
Sleeping cat - I can’t find anything that’s a sleeping cat rather than a seated cat (see here) so may be decorative element rather than word?
Figure holding a goblet - Again, I can’t find anything (see lists here and here) that’s a figure specifically holding a goblet; this may be a picture, rather than a hieroglyph

Any good?[/quote]

I’ll see what I can do. I’m relatively certain a few of them are made up to specifically reference the game lore, and not any Egyptian lore. These don’t sound like they’re making words, if it is meant to be real, and it’s on a grave, it might just be a cartouche for a specific person or meant to commemorate an event symbolically. Also, it may be that your character is reading them wrong, as you don’t get much exposure to ancient Egyptian culture in Victorian England.
The sun is a symbol of Ra/Amun-Ra, a hawk is generally an A sound, a boat with a single sail probably represents the journey to the underworld after death.
The hooded figures holding the goblet sound like they were made up just for the game lore, they don’t have lots of hooded things in hieroglyphics, as far as I know.
I’ll be able to figure out more when I get home and check some reference books.

The cat-curled-as-if-asleep may certainly reflect Neathlore – see, the moon in the Marches, and the patterns thereon: http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/echo_theodor?fromEchoId=234247

I wonder if the hieroglyphs do not tell a story. The boat could indicate a journey – to the Underworld, or across the Unterzee. The row of hooded figures could be the Masters, and the goblet could be of Hesperidean Cider, or the elixir of life from the Elder Country.

I got to page 4 and wanted to put this thought out there - one I had when I was at the Genghis Khan exhibit at the Field Museum in Chicago. (I’m 100% on the Karakorum boat, btw. No doubt in my mind. Just because it stated “the language of xanadu” doesn’t mean the city was xanadu. Also, the Mongol language was notably difficult to read.)

What if the connecting factor of all of these cities is that they are strong trade cities of Empires, taken near each Empire’s “fall”? Trade being a prominent element in EBZ, this seems to follow. London can arguably say that their Empire declined as they moved into the 20th century. Karakorum was the capitol and a huge multicultural trade city of the Mongol Empire.

This might help us narrow down options for cities that would fit this description: a trade city, most likely a capitol, of an empire. Add in a love story, myth or real, and we might come up with more evidence for our cities.

(forgive me if this has already been stated.)


edited by OScarletO on 5/3/2012

[quote=Scarlet Fenwick]I got to page 4 and wanted to put this thought out there - one I had when I was at the Genghis Khan exhibit at the Field Museum in Chicago. (I’m 100% on the Karakorum boat, btw. No doubt in my mind. Just because it stated “the language of xanadu” doesn’t mean the city was xanadu. Also, the Mongol language was notably difficult to read.)

What if the connecting factor of all of these cities is that they are strong trade cities of Empires, taken near each Empire’s “fall”? Trade being a prominent element in EBZ, this seems to follow. London can arguably say that their Empire declined as they moved into the 20th century. Karakorum was the capitol and a huge multicultural trade city of the Mongol Empire.

This might help us narrow down options for cities that would fit this description: a trade city, most likely a capitol, of an empire. Add in a love story, myth or real, and we might come up with more evidence for our cities.

(forgive me if this has already been stated.)


edited by OScarletO on 5/3/2012[/quote]

Another thought’s shot through me like a lightning-bolt. I was about to explain that Tell Brak, ancient Nagar, our candidate for the First City, was a crossroads for commerce in the Akkadian Empire, located along the Khabur River. If we do believe the Masters target centers of trade, that’s further evidence for Nagar.

Then it occured to me that Amarna, too, was located along the Niles (that river with seven mouths, flowing from south to NORTH). Coleridge’s poem places Xanadu upon “Alph, the sacred river, ran / Through caverns measureless to man / Down to a sunless sea.” Or, if you prefer Karakorum, you may note its proximity to the Orkhon River Valley. Hopelchen requires more of a search, but it seems the territory is altogether divided up by rivers.

Is this a coincidence? For trade and rivers do coincide – but perhaps there has always been a Stolen River in every city to run to Hell?

With the new Ambition chapters, there have been some interesting revelations. Going to spoiler-whiteout in case anyone doesn’t want to know what happens with the latest Heart’s Desire… but it does say some interesting things about the Manager, and the King With a Hundered Hearts.

[color=#ffffff]‘THE MAN YOU KNOW AS THE MANAGER WAS ONCE THE FIRST KING. YOU STAND IN THE STREETS OF THE ONE HE LOVES. POLYTHREME IS ALL AROUND YOU. THE KING WITH A HUNDRED HEARTS. HE HAS SENT MANY PLAYERS AWAY. PERHAPS YOU WILL SPEAK WITH HIM. PERHAPS YOU WILL GAIN WHAT YOU DESIRE. BUT TO SPEAK OF SUCH THINGS PAINS THE KING. THE TOWN WILL SCREAM. THE UNFINISHED WILL COME FORTH. I DON’T EXPECT YOU TO CARE. BUT THIS IS THE TRUTH.’[/color]

[quote=Anna Carbonyl][quote=Quil]The symbols on the gravestones aren’t words at all, they are rows and rows of precisely-carved images. Stylized hawks and over-sized lizards; something which must surely be the sun; a boat with a single sail; water poured from a jar. Everywhere, twined around and between everything, there are cats curled up as if asleep. And what’s that in the corner of the oldest stone? A row of tiny cloaked and hooded figures, one bearing a goblet?

I’ll see what I can do. I’m relatively certain a few of them are made up to specifically reference the game lore, and not any Egyptian lore. These don’t sound like they’re making words, if it is meant to be real, and it’s on a grave, it might just be a cartouche for a specific person or meant to commemorate an event symbolically. Also, it may be that your character is reading them wrong, as you don’t get much exposure to ancient Egyptian culture in Victorian England.
The sun is a symbol of Ra/Amun-Ra, a hawk is generally an A sound, a boat with a single sail probably represents the journey to the underworld after death.
The hooded figures holding the goblet sound like they were made up just for the game lore, they don’t have lots of hooded things in hieroglyphics, as far as I know.
I’ll be able to figure out more when I get home and check some reference books.[/quote]

Ra was known as the great cat and cats are associated with Ra, but I rather think this is a reference to a well known cat lover. Ra of course sails his boat through the underworld every night.

I’ve never seen any hooded figures in egyptian texts. So this would refer to an actual event I’d suggest. The only hooded figures we know of are the masters, so perhaps they are offering someone a goblet of cider?

[quote=Allanon Kisigar]With the new Ambition chapters, there have been some interesting revelations. Going to spoiler-whiteout in case anyone doesn’t want to know what happens with the latest Heart’s Desire… but it does say some interesting things about the Manager, and the King With a Hundered Hearts.

[color=#ffffff]‘THE MAN YOU KNOW AS THE MANAGER WAS ONCE THE FIRST KING. YOU STAND IN THE STREETS OF THE ONE HE LOVES. POLYTHREME IS ALL AROUND YOU. THE KING WITH A HUNDRED HEARTS. HE HAS SENT MANY PLAYERS AWAY. PERHAPS YOU WILL SPEAK WITH HIM. PERHAPS YOU WILL GAIN WHAT YOU DESIRE. BUT TO SPEAK OF SUCH THINGS PAINS THE KING. THE TOWN WILL SCREAM. THE UNFINISHED WILL COME FORTH. I DON’T EXPECT YOU TO CARE. BUT THIS IS THE TRUTH.’[/color][/quote]

Interesting. [color=#ffffff]That confirms the Manager was a priest-king of the First City; the King with a Hundred Hearts may have come from elsewhere. Now, perhaps, we may make more sense of the Polythremean references to the Silk Road.[/color]

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)][color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Spoilers with regards to the latest section of Heart’s Desire[/color]
The King with a Hundred Hearts came from ancient China.[/color]

Also, this is in regards to the gravestone

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Two figures step into the chamber, hunched and garbed in many-petalled black cloaks. Masters of the Bazaar. One carries a clay cup, the other an unlit candle. The one with the cup says, ‘I think we can be of service to each other. Allow me to propose an exchange…’[/color]
edited by MaskedGentleman on 5/5/2012

So I apologize for not having read the full forum – I’m a relatively recent player of the game (to give some context, I’m in the latter stages of exploring the Forgotten Quarter and just gained access to the Shuttered Palace), so I’ve only skimmed over many of the posts in order to avoid spoilers. So apologies if I miss critical clues that show up later, or if I repeat something that’s already been beaten to death.

I very much agree with OScarletO – London in the late 19th century was less a capital of a military empire and more the capital of a commercial empire. The centrality of the Bazaar and the role of the Masters as industrial age monopolists cum pagan gods in London should drive this point home. The key points for stolen cities to me should be:

  • Commercial capitals of the world at that time – the Royal Exchange ruled the global economy as it existed in the 19th century.
  • Among largest cities in the world (if not the largets) – More on this later, but London, at 3 million people, was bigger than any other city at the time.
  • Cosmopolitan – London in 1860 was home to Irish, Chinese, Indian, and Jewish immigrant communities, in addition to the in-migrants from the countryside. In addition to those who lived there, the boat and train traffic brought an immense number of visitors to the city.
  • At the peak of its glory – London remained a world capital for the next half century, but one could easily argue that 1860 was midsummer for London.

With that…

The Fifth City –

Obviously, it’s London, but a bit more than that. It’s likely blatantly obvious that the Traitor Empress is Queen Victoria, and that the price for the city was Hesperidian Cider for Prince Albert, who in real history died of typhoid in 1861, after which Victoria went into a period of immense grief that abated somewhat but generally persisted her whole life. I think if the real Queen Victoria could have sent London a mile beneath the earth to save Prince Albert’s life, she would have considered it.

The Fourth City –

As I said, I’m less far into the game than many of you, but the arguments for Xanadu over Karakorum make little sense to me. Xanadu, from what I’ve read, was more of a summer capital and almost a state retreat, a bit like Versailles, whereas Karakorum was the thriving center of the Mongol empire. (Also, the silver tree fountain should ice it, IMO.) I’d speculate that within the game, Kublai Kahn sells Karakorum to the Bazaar and moves the full capital to Xanadu, but like Amarna, it doesn’t stay there long. In any case, Karakorum was a highly cosmopolitan city (Ghengis Kahn went out of his way to make sure that all religions were welcomed, and maintained various quarters of the city for different populations). It was rolling in wealth, much of which derived from the Mongol Empire’s ability to connect the trade centers of Han China, Eastern Europe, and the Near East. I feel like so many bricks are laid out by the game, this one’s a no-brainer. Yes, by my own criteria, it was not that large a city, but the city is quite evidently Mongol, and none of the central Mongol cities were large. If there is an alternative, for my money it’s Dadu, on the site of modern Beijing (in fact, as I research writing this, I’m starting to lean that way a bit).

Besides, we have from the Forgotten Quarter the terrified temple denizens cowering in fear in “the last days of the Third City,” which doesn’t sound much like a relocation of the capital. Karakorum, in contrast, was sacked and violently destroyed in 1370, two years after the palaces in Dadu were razed by Ming forces, as the last days of the Mongol Yuan Empire faded and were replaced by the Ming Dynasty. What else happens in 1370? Let’s just say a certain widow mysteriously went missing, with rumors that her child went on to become the second Ming Emperor. Not a bad trade for a city.

The Third City –

Yes, I know the Third City “had five wells,” and Hopelchen means “city of five wells.” Yay, Hopelchen! There’s just one problem – Hopelchen is the modern name for a town of 7k people and a municipality of about 30k. Yes, the plentiful cenotes in the area probably give the village of Hopelchen its name. There’s just one very major problem – there’s no history, ruins, or other indications of any major city near Hopelchen village or in Hopelchen municipality. There are some very minor ones, but they’re generally a minor temple or pyramid, not one of the major cities of the area. The closest you get is the famous Chichen Itza ruins, but that site has another major problem. It has very well know, well documented cenotes – exactly two of them. If “five wells” were a bit of a red herring to throw everyone off, it wouldn’t be alone – there’s also the “writing system of beads on a string” which of course sound a lot like Quipu, the Incan number system of knots. (Just for the record, the peak of Incan civilization is very much in the wrong time.)

There are, however, a few cities that might fit the bill.

Teotihuacan – The collapse comes maybe 100-200 years earlier than the “1000 years ago” clue we’re given, but the city was the first truly dominant multi-ethnic city with massive trade, administrative, and religious complexes in the region, and was reportedly the largest city in the world at that time. No other pre-Columbian Mesoamerican city reaches its size. The pantheon is particularly appealing (For instance I’d equate the Great Goddess with Mr. Veils and Isis, but more on that later). It has the additional “feature” of experiencing a catastrophic collapse between 650-750, going from the pinnacle of Mesoamerican civilization to a backwater in less than a century. This is easily my #1 choice, which was originally tempered by the theory that there were no major writing systems in Teotihuacan, but I’ve since found articles claiming that the pictographs around the site actually represent glyphs that anticipate the more sophisticated Mayan systems that follow. No word about five wells, but there’s a massive tunnel network underneath the city that includes some underground springs (can’t find how many). Teotihuacan is a later name for the place, meaning “birthplace of the gods.”

Tikal – The most dominant of the Classical Mayan cities, and the only one to approach Teotihuacan in population, reaching around 100k. It grows for 1000 years and becomes a center of learning and culture, but falls in the 9th century as part of the Classical Mayan Collapse. The Mayan cultures have the neat feature of revering the jaguar and having some sort of jaguar god or priesthood (hellooooo Dutchess!), but aside from importance, Tikal doesn’t have much that matches the third city. It did have a specific number of reservoirs surrounding the city. Ten of them.

Calakmul – The rival city to Tikal, about half its size, and eventually overwhelmed. All the same things as Tikal, just half as much. Including the number of major reservoirs – 5. (!!!) Yeah, I know, but I still have trouble seeing the Masters taking a second fiddle city, or Failbetter Games picking it out of the numerous other great candidates in the area.

Others, including Coba, Monte Alban, and Chichen Itza, just fall way too late.

The Second City –

Amarna is tempting, but it was just the in existence for the period of one single Pharaoh, after which it was abandoned. Furthermore, if the First City truly was “young when Babylon fell,” we have a very tight chronology. While Babylon bounced back a number of times, usually I see the “sack of Babylon” refer to the end of the Amorite period, which puts it around 1500 BCE. If the First City was young then, that doesn’t give much time for it to get a bit older, get stolen, then for them to come back around for Amarna in 1330 BCE or so.

All that said, I can’t exactly say why, but all the stuff I see gives me the feeling of Upper Egypt, not Lower Egypt, so if not Amarna, I’m much happier to go with the dominant city of middle and late period Egypt, Thebes. We have a massively wealthy, diverse city with a complex pantheon, and a definitive sack date of 661 by Assurbanapel. I haven’t found much to go on here, but between Amarna and Thebes, Thebes would be far and away the more tempting buy for the Masters, with its superior wealth and millennia of royal history. As for being close to the entrance to Hell, the Valley of the Kings is right around the corner.

The First City –

I’ve been working on this too long, so I’ll just point to my favorite candidate – Gezer (Gezer - Wikipedia)

A deftly argued post – I have been persuaded to Karakorum, half-way to Xanadu, then back again, thanks to your rhetoric. I still, however, lean towards Amarna as the identity of the Second City. You say that Thebes is a diverse city with a complex pantheon, yet the Second City is noted for its distinct lack of worship in the text ruling out Alexandria … and it is said elsewhere that its pharaoh tore down the old gods, as he did in Amarna. If the pharaoh in Thebes had done the same, I might be better-convinced.

Ah, I hadn’t uncovered those clues. Those do definitely sound like Amarna when you put it that way.

[quote=MaskedGentleman][color=rgb(255, 255, 255)][color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Spoilers with regards to the latest section of Heart’s Desire[/color]
The King with a Hundred Hearts came from ancient China.[/color]

Also, this is in regards to the gravestone

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Two figures step into the chamber, hunched and garbed in many-petalled black cloaks. Masters of the Bazaar. One carries a clay cup, the other an unlit candle. The one with the cup says, ‘I think we can be of service to each other. Allow me to propose an exchange…’[/color]
edited by MaskedGentleman on 5/5/2012[/quote]
The Master with the candle also appears in the ambition Light Fingers.