. . . To re- re-iterate:
DEVILs = Lawful EVIL
Alas, Hawksby, you confuddle an instance of contractual adherance with consistancy, and consistancy with honesty - and honesty with good-intention . . . (vis-a-vis the Chess game)
((BTW, that wee sticky wicket i was busy with is done with - i shall be swiftly back to better engage campaignery and the debating fray))
-:- Drazzle Psmyth votes Shoshana - For Hope, Destiny, and FreeWill !! -:-
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edited by Doctor_Static on 7/22/2019
The elections are a sham to begin with. A distraction from the predations of the Masters, the Bazaar, the Embassy, the Traitor Empress, and all the rest upon the city. Ultimately, none of the three candidates offer a true solution to London’s plight.
But Virginia has a history. A revolutionary history. She’s fought campaigns, fought wars, and she knows another one’s coming. Regardless of your position on souls, Virginia’s platform calls for an improvement to the able-bodiedness of London’s people, physically and mentally.
Yes, in the long run, she may be trying to gear us up for another War against Hell. Perhaps it is merely an experiment. But an able-bodied populace prepared for war is all the more prepared for the overthrow of the Traitor Empress and the Masters.
Virginia may not be the right person for London, but she can be useful nevertheless.
(Yggdrasil) ‘Drazzle’ Fawlty Psmyth - pontillist pundit - says:
-:- Ahhh, yes! Meant to bring that quoted Word to notice : candidate "Verge-gin-ya" ["?"] DID call her proposed platform an ‘EXPERIMENT’ : thus implying all citizens voting her in - would, at best / minimum, be volunteering themselves as her ‘Lab-Rats’ or ‘Guinea pigs’ -:- Experimental Subjects -:- raw materiel, not beneficiaries, of her Diabollic Scheming . . .
-:- Vote Shoshana - the "Shy Sphynx" - and never be riddled with doubt again !! -:-
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edited by Doctor_Static on 7/23/2019
[quote=Hotshot Blackburn]The elections are a sham to begin with. A distraction from the predations of the Masters, the Bazaar, the Embassy, the Traitor Empress, and all the rest upon the city. Ultimately, none of the three candidates offer a true solution to London’s plight.
But Virginia has a history. A revolutionary history. She’s fought campaigns, fought wars, and she knows another one’s coming. Regardless of your position on souls, Virginia’s platform calls for an improvement to the able-bodiedness of London’s people, physically and mentally.
Yes, in the long run, she may be trying to gear us up for another War against Hell. Perhaps it is merely an experiment. But an able-bodied populace prepared for war is all the more prepared for the overthrow of the Traitor Empress and the Masters.
Virginia may not be the right person for London, but she can be useful nevertheless.[/quote]
If she’s setting us up for another war with Hell, I hope the Bishop of Southwick makes a show if she wins. It’d be kinda neat to see them interact.
I think Mrs Plenty is right about Virginia - for all her revolutionary connections, she’s an aristocrat at heart. The hostility to democracy, the enthusiasm for severe and arbitrary punishments, the general air of assumption of right to rule… I half wonder if she isn’t nursing some secret sympathies for the exiled monarchy she fought against, or at least some aspects of their rule.
Scientia omnia vincit! Ave, praetor Victoria, ad suffragii te salutant!
edited by EJ Hamacher on 7/23/2019
Well, Soshana’s tarot card for Virginia is The Shackled One.
The Shackled One in an actual Tarot Deck is shackled to none other than Satan, so I imagine that line meant that Virginia is still in a way a slave to the old hierarchies. Maybe emotionally, or in her way of thinking, and not necessarily a traitor to the cause per se.
She does have this exact air, unlike the slobbering devils we tend to encounter. Which makes her rather tragic, since she helped to bring the world she yearns for down.
And it also makes it a bad idea to give her any kind of power. “Democracy was but an afternoon”… lovely line, warning line.
My character’s opposition to Virginia certainly has nothing to do with base bigotry against devils simply for the fact of being devils. Some of his most treasured acquaintances are devils. They’re great fun at parties! However, appointing the agent of a foreign power (who, if not actively hostile, certainly has a strong reputation of aggressive intrigue and meddling) to the levers of power seems…unwise. I mean, why not appoint a Khanganian White-and-Gold while we’re at it!
That and he hasn’t quite forgotten her attempts to murder him (and worse, steal/impede his research!). And that also goes for her campaign manager, the loathsome Dr. Orthos, who is apparently too much of an academic incompetent to write a single paper without robbing from superior scholars.
[quote=Doctor_Static]. . . To re- re-iterate:
DEVILs = Lawful EVIL
[/quote]
Noted, but irrelevant, as this is not D&D. Individuals are individuals here, not merely alignment stereotypes (even Devils). However, generally speaking (and as an old First Addition AD&D’er myself), I understand and agree with your point. The difference between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil there was in adherence to rules. LE types would always keep their word, adhere to contracts, etc. They adhere to the LITERAL truth - they can phrase it in a misleading way, so HOW they say something may very well lead you to a trap, but WHAT they say is always technically true. They could stray from the intent of an agreement, as long as they obeyed the letter of it. CE types had no such restrictions and could not be trusted at all. But all of that is beside the point, since we have no alignment system here.
Not at all. I NEVER said she had good intentions. I said she was honest, and that her plan has at least incidental benefits for us. And that neither of those things was true for either of the other candidates. As for what Virginia has to say for herself (good and bad):
"Is London in safe hands with me? Of course not. I am, after all, a devil. More relevantly, I’m me. But, look around! Can you say that London is in the best of health? London is filled with corruption, degeneracy, paucity of ambition." She wipes her mouth delicately on a pressed napkin. "London’s reserves in the only currency that matters are almost spent. I mean to give the city a fighting chance. Call me a good sportswoman."
She admits she’s not just a Devil, but a particularly dangerous one. She admits that London is not safe in her hands. HOWEVER, she goes on to point out that she’s a better choice for giving London a fighting chance against the coming threats than the other candidates. In both integrity and practicality, she FAR outshines the other candidates. Have you ever heard either Mrs. Plenty or Madame Shoshana admit anything bad about themselves? Has Mrs. Plenty warned that her alcoholism might be dangerous in a Mayor, or that her ties to a Master makes her a bad risk? Has Madame Shoshana admitted that she’s wrong as often as she’s right? Say what you like about Virginia and her Devilish nature, she is more candid than either of her competitors.
As for practicality, Virginia’s plan improves the health of Londoners. For ulterior reasons? Certainly. But the point is that WE still benefit from it. We gain NOTHING from Mrs. Plenty’s empty platform, and even Madame Shoshana doesn’t know how to act on her own plan beyond "let the Ministry deal avert the next city crushing us"…when the Ministry is run by the Masters who WANT the next city to crush us, the sooner the better. Madame Shoshana’s plan would hasten our destruction, while Mrs. Plenty advises fiddling while Rome burns. Only Virginia’s plan holds any benefit to Londoners at all.
Undoubtedly some would suffer under Virginia’s rule. People who sell their souls WILL find their souls Abstracted. The Hunts would continue. BUT London as a whole would survive. It is far less likely to do so under either of the others.
[EDIT: formatting]
edited by Vorwoda Hawksby on 7/23/2019
[quote=Scienceandponies]My character’s opposition to Virginia certainly has nothing to do with base bigotry against devils simply for the fact of being devils. Some of his most treasured acquaintances are devils. They’re great fun at parties![/quote]Look … this isn’t your character’s main point about Virginia’s infernal connections - despite the mounting evidence that the Brass Embassy has distanced itself from Virginia’s campaign - but I just don’t think your character should be arguing "Don’t worry, I have a [devil] friend" right now. It’s a tad self-defeating and objectifying. Of course, that’s all part of the society they live in, but it sticks out.
All right. For all of you suggesting that Virginia is good because she is giving us a Fighting chance please explain…
…how ON EARTH does a spa or even good physical health in general give you a fighting chance if an entire industrialized city falls on your head?
Are we going to be so superhumanly strong we will lift our hands above our heads and hold Paris in its place just above London as it falls? Huh?
Good lord. At least when Southwark is badgering us about taking care of body and soul he has an actual war in mind. But he has a silly moustache so no need to take him seriously. Virginia does it and all of a sudden yes! We will bench-press Champs-Elysee!
Argh.
edited by Jolanda Swan on 7/23/2019
Or a Presbyterate agent. Imagine that!
I think if we elect an agent of every foreign power to municipal office, we get a set bonus.
What next? The French?
Well come to think of it, unless we take care of the Sixth city business, we are electing the French. To come sit on our heads. Permanently.
[quote=Jolanda Swan]All right. For all of you suggesting that Virginia is good because she is giving us a Fighting chance please explain…
…how ON EARTH does a spa or even good physical health in general give you a fighting chance if an entire industrialized city falls on your head?
[/quote]
Very well, Miss Swan, I shall be happy to explain.
Clearly, the answer to your absurdly and misleadingly phrased question above is: they don’t. Nothing done by anyone could. IF the city falls on one’s head, it is already too late for any help.
The goal is to find, have, and execute a plan with at least a chance of PREVENTING that from occurring. So, looking honestly at all three options:
MRS. PLENTY’S PLAN: "Sit, wait peacefully, and do nothing." Just relax at her Carnival until it is suddenly and squashily replaced by the Louvre. While you’re there. Munching Rubbery Lumps. And that’s even before you account for the fact that her husband the personal aide of a Master who WANTS the Sixth City to fall on our heads, and soon. This is blatantly of no help whatsoever.
MADAME SHOSHANA’S PLAN: "Love is needed. But from whom or what, or for whom or what, or how or why, I don’t know. Let the Ministry handle it, they’ll save us!" Sure they will. The Ministry…run, again, by the Masters. Let me reiterate, that THEY are the ones who WANT to hasten London’s destruction and replacement by the Sixth City. Trusting our city’s protection to the Masters is like trusting Pompeii’s protection to Mt. Vesuvius. If Mt. Vesuvius was sentient, and eager to blow up at the earliest possible opportunity. This is WORSE than no help, it is ACTIVELY courting immediate total annihilation.
VIRGINIA’S PLAN: "Strengthen Londoners spiritually, morally, physically, and mentally." No, that won’t give us the Atlas-like ability to hold Paris over our heads. But it WILL strengthen us our resolve and our personal capabilities to better resist the machinations of the MASTERS, and their plans for the arrival of the Sixth City. And it’s painfully obvious that we need to strengthen our resolve to resist the Masters’ plans, when some Londoners are weak (our blind) enough to subscribe to the Plans of the other candidates, which would actually HELP the Masters to destroy us all.
Why would Virginia (or Hell, in general) want to save London? Wouldn’t the Sixth City also have plenty of souls for them? Of course. And so would the Seventh. But then, time runs out for everyone. Seven is the limit. When the Masters win, humanity dies. No more souls for the Devils. The Masters must be stopped. Even the Devils realize this.
Azothi has provided an in-depth and fascinating full analysis of Virginia’s plan in http://community.failbettergames.com/topic27541-virginias-hidden-plan-a-discussion.aspx] this thread [/url]. While some of his conclusions may be speculative, his underlying evidence is not. I strongly urge everyone to read this for themselves.
Bottom line: The Masters are the real enemies of London. And of the three candidates in this election, only Virginia opposes them and has a plan that offers any resistance to them. It may not be enough. It may not work. But it’s the only one that’s not complete capitulation and surrender.
So you’re saying it wouldn’t help to exclaim how he would even let one use the loo at his residence?
[quote=Vorwoda Hawksby]
VIRGINIA’S PLAN: "Strengthen Londoners spiritually, morally, physically, and mentally." No, that won’t give us the Atlas-like ability to hold Paris over our heads. But it WILL strengthen us our resolve and our personal capabilities to better resist the machinations of the MASTERS, and their plans for the arrival of the Sixth City. And it’s painfully obvious that we need to strengthen our resolve to resist the Masters’ plans, when some Londoners are weak (our blind) enough to subscribe to the Plans of the other candidates, which would actually HELP the Masters to destroy us all.
…
Bottom line: The Masters are the real enemies of London. And of the three candidates in this election, only Virginia opposes them and has a plan that offers any resistance to them. It may not be enough. It may not work. But it’s the only one that’s not complete capitulation and surrender.[/quote]
Alright, I’ll bite. Let’s even go so far as to assume that Virginia’s secret motive in this entire election is to save London from disaster by preventing the fall of a sixth city - same as Shoshana. I still don’t see how building a spa (or even the general improvement of physical and spiritual fortitude) gives us a quantifiable advantage, any more than Shoshana’s platform of love stories does. You’re talking about staving off destruction, but no candidate can provide definitive proof that their agenda would do so. Better resist the Masters how, by doing what?! Say Virginia makes the average Londoner more spiritually stable and physically fit. How does that do anything to prevent the Masters’ scheming?
At least with Shoshana’s platform, you could make the argument that the Masters have reason to keep the city around as long as it continues to generate love stories for the Bazaar.
You’re saying that it’s "painfully obvious that we need to strengthen our resolve to resist the Masters’ plans." You’ll have to forgive me, then; I fail to see the obvious. If her platform were to ‘strengthen Londoners’ resolve against the Masters and the Bazaar’ you could more soundly make the argument that her plan has anything to do with the Masters at all, but even if you make that assumption ahead of time, you can’t say that her motives automatically make her means a realistic solution. If you can somehow demonstrate what exactly the Masters’ plans are and how Virginia’s platform of public health derails those plans, then by all means, go on. Saying they do doesn’t make it so.
One of her key touted qualification is that she’s a veteran of a conflict… in which her side literally ENSLAVED Londoners.
Sure, it may have been a defensive war from her standpoint, but why should we elect an elitist, enslaving, Queen wannabee to our one elected office?
We must keep in mind - each and all of our candidates ARE geniuses, whatever their character, style, idiom, or charisma . . . Ah, late rejoinder to HAWKSBY, ol’ boy ::
As for what Virginia has to say for herself (good and bad) - Yes, most frank, earnestly direct - a charismatic appeal to (vain ego, and actual-) intelligence and pragmatism - points for style, whatever the devil’s sincerity, i concede. But i also chortle ruefully at her arrogant and subtle emphasis on having met the Press and Public arriving directly from The Hunt - ("good"-SportsWoman", indeed!) - dabbing what-knows-who from her lips with a napkin !! Horrificly droll irony and subtle Dominating Arrogance . . . Scientist or not, i would not care to be "her majesty’s" "Experimental Subject" ! . . . Enjoying the wrist-grip of your new, wary Claws, anyone "Virginial"…?
-:- Y. "Drazzle" F. Psmyth -:-
-:- vote Shoshana - Vote Hope !! -:-
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edited by Doctor_Static on 7/24/2019
Honestly, I enjoyed Azothi’s analysis of why, if one squints just right, Virginia plans to save us, but I somehow doubt she would neglect to mention it in her election platform. I mean, it sounds like something you want people to know when you are asking about their vote.
But she did say ‘give London a fighting chance’, didn’t she?
And then it dawned on me:
She wants to give London a fighting chance against her, since so often we play the quarry in her hunts.
She is a sporting lady. She appreciates a good fight - she has demonstrated it time and again.
So she wants us to have a fighting chance against her, and for some reason this was translated into a benevolent slogan out of nowhere. Right into her trap, I guess.