I’m not convinced it’s a true AI. All it’s moments of supposed self-awareness could easily be programmed in the same manner as its turing test practice. I think it’s a very large calculator and pattern recognizing/reproducing engine and nothing more. It only seems intelligent because it’s scale is so incomprehensible to anyone who isn’t a mathematical genius.
[quote=Kourkoumpina]Good story that I feel is kinda ruined by the ending options.
In fact, its even unclear what some of the options do (I misunderstood what the option I chose was supposed to have as outcome).
So, I can forgive the fact that there is not even a single option to use the machine for our own profit (as a newly made Person of Some Importance I could sure have used Personal recommendations, legal documents and some permits… and can find no reason why this could not be done with it) but it ruins my immersion as it is created.
[spoiler] I went with the first option … i.e. let them kill the Mathematician. The way my character see’s it, he ruined their lives + he didnt want to help them release me so… his fate is sealed.
But the machine… such wonderful Machine should prosper (maybe used by me at a later stage or others). It was a bit scary that it wants to self improve (i.e. AI - Sentience!) and that it can break laws of nature but what do I care…
I hence selected the first option - let them do what they want with him and leave. But apparently, that gets the machine destroyed! So it seems, the only way to keep it up and running is if you leave both of them alive after beating the other 3… which is at best meh!
And of course there is no way to take back what I did… cause I would then rather leave them both alive than neither…
Shame…
[/spoiler][/quote]
I think the reason its all or nothing is that the Machine cannot function for long, improve, repair, or even do basic things without its creator around to look after it. It’s a one of a kind engine interlinked with a one of a kind man, at least for the present moment. The machine’s interface seems deceptively simple, but we only did the most basic of commands. It’s pretty clear from a stroll through the various wings of the Machine that a lot still has to be done on the human side of things and god help you if a fuse shorts out. So player characters wouldn’t be capable of profiting off a working Persona Engine without the Mathematician around.
The topic of the story was quite interesting, but all the running around you had to do and all the conversations you had to have with the different victims dragged it down a bit for me. They were mildly interesting to learn about, but I feel like the whole thing should have been more streamlined, action-wise.
As for my choice…
It seems I’m one of the only people who saved the Mathematician. As my character sees it, while he could be very dangerous to him, he could also be an extremely useful ally, and easy to control. That machine isn’t going anywhere, and he knows where he lives, and so will his network, if he tries anything funny. Besides that, he’s grateful enough for the rescue and newfound patron. All said and done, having someone who can perfectly forge any document or correspondence within the day and do any complex math/taxes on-call outweighs the risk.
edited by Addis Rook on 11/26/2016
My first exceptional story. Decided that I liked the engine at the end. Really enjoyed the writing, even if the investigation part felt a bit like an action sponge.
I don’t have much to add to this conversation, admittedly. I made my choice to allow all involved party members to live - mercy over justice perhaps, the Anchoress’s way, even if Hotshot theoretically subscribes to the Unconfined philosophy. Strayed somewhat from how I’ve treated individuals in past ES mostly because of how cool the Engine was (and I have a soft spot for trying to make friends of weird and strange people in FL) and of how useful it could be with the right persuasion… (way different from how I treated Vespasian for sure). There was an element that I particularly enjoyed, however…
As someone who RPs both an aforementioned Unconfined character who is associated with the Revolutionaries, I found the Heavy-Hearted Censor’s motivations and words to be a nice change from the usual information we get about the Ministry of Public Decency and what it does. Although he has bias, he correctly points out that just because a work is censored doesn’t mean it was done so on purely political grounds: there are genuinely works of hatred and violence out there that advocate and aim to teach methods of violence and harm on others, or that openly condone and call for repugnant actions. So it muddles the work of the Ministry because they are a political organization and do involve politics, but they also take works and words off the street that if made readily available could lead to more suffering and pain than already exists. It may not be the most complicated or interesting of ethical dilemmas but it’s still a good basic one I think doesn’t tend to show up all that often in Fallen London unless referring to the LoNers, whether free knowledge as a whole is desirable or whether it’s only free knowledge that supports your interpretation of what is ethically/morally right.
Enjoyable story and I’m so eager for how this season is going to payoff - my prediction is this season is going to end with a bang compared to the usual way that seasons end.
[spoiler]
Dirae Erinyes choose to allow the mathematician to be killed due to their feelings on revenge. While they have been more merciful in the past, they are against the idea of reducing people to numbers - something related to their past that has yet to come up in the roleplays. [spoiler]
edited by Shadowcthuhlu on 11/26/2016
I liked this story the most out of the ones I’ve played so far. I liked the writing for the ambassador engineer and censor. I especially enjoyed the censors descriptions of his motivations and the engineer talking about making the ship her mother served on. Like everyone else I was upset at the ending. Overall I love this story.
I loved this story so much! The character development was pleasantly in-depth, allowing me to get a real close connection with the people I was investigating with, and making the individual cost of the mathematician’s work seem much more personal and significant. I liked that all of the options to talk with the people revealed new information, helped you understand them better. The actions each seemed to matter a lot, which is always fun. I loved the themes too. Machines and conspiracies are always a favorite of mine. Exploring the you-know-what was… incredible. I love her. Can I adopt her as my daughter? Please? Cash, if you’re listening, I will pay for extra Fate content where I can do that.
EDIT: Personally I had no problems with the ending at all. Might just be because given Gul’s motivations, saving them both was the only possible choice.
[li]
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 6/3/2017
In the end I chose to destroy the machine, but on the assumption that, as a Courier’s Footprint and Extraordinary Mind, clearly I have the greatest mind in the neath for all things mathematical… so now, in my RP-verse, now that I know such a thing is possible, I am trying to reproduce it.
Greetings, I feel as if I may missed additional content but cannot go back to check so for those still in the basement…
Is it possible to … reverse engineer the handwritten note from the lady? As in, find out her identity? The note disappeared when I exited the machine and I feel I should have been able to use it somewhere… Thoughts?
I’ll send you a PM about it.
See I didn’t even care about using the machine, just wanted to let her keep existing and growing. But the mathematician can be left to his fate.
And the Letter from a Lady I also found confusing mechanically…you rifle through the papers to get it, but iirc it seemed the rifling option was still set to 'Unlocked by having no: Letter from a Lady" making me wonder if that curious stilted conversation I saw (and had identified to predictable if nice result) was the letter or if I missed something.
Still, was enjoyable, liked the characters we saw, liked the Deep Lore TM hints we were given with Discordance and more of The Red Science. Can’t wait to see where this goes (nor can I wait for the Season of Wrecks climax)
Overall, I really enjoyed the story. Some of the mechanics left me wanting, but as a story (and why are we here if not for stories), it was quite effective.
I do wish there was a way to continue associations afterwards. I also want to use my blueprint to make a handheld version of The Memento Mori, is that so wrong?
[quote=Silverias]I also want to use my blueprint to make a handheld version of The Memento Mori, is that so wrong?[/quote][b]Yes.
[/b]
On another note, I’m chiming in with the Shakes-Head-At-Ending choir with another tune:
I find the execution of the Save Man And Machine part a tad too… blunt. I’m aware that these three people quite presumably play roles of No Further Consequence, but it’s way out of character for ‘me’, and unnecessary, to just knock der 'eads’n kick’em out da door without a further word. Last but not least as I am a Legendary Charisma, and these guys don’t even know about the existence of the Engine - all they know about that is that I disappeared behind a bookshelf - and I’m not keeping that Subtle quirk high for just scores, and my Friends In High Places… etcetera. You get my drift.
Apart from that, this was a nice one. Somewhat of an action sink, but that felt not out of place, considering the activities involved, and I felt I got enough back in return. (tucks napkin) Eager for the next course.
I wholeheartedly agree. I thoroughly enjoy being able to play a subtle, and when needed manipulative, character and this felt rather heavy-handed. [spoiler]It is also the only Exceptional Story so far where I can’t find a way to justify my ending choice. I don’t actually mind not being able to acquire the engine for myself, but I would have liked a reason for it to be impossible. Heck the story even gave us an explicit method of taking control of the machine without the Mathematician being alive.
Also, it’s kind of ironic. Back in ‘Our Lady Pyres’ there was the whole problem with us not being able to really play a morally good character, whereas here we don’t have the choice to play an evil / ruthlessly pragmatic character. Even the motivation of the two choices at the end were of moral nature, either destroy the machine and kill the Mathematician out of justice and to protect people from evil, or keep both alive because its merciful.[/spoiler]
I still think the story as a whole was great. But the ending choice is almost always an pivotal part of the experience, and the stories that gives me an opportunity to chose the outcome that match my character’s desire always feels so much more fulfilling and satisfying.
.
edited by Akernis on 11/27/2016
I was just thinking about something.
[spoiler]It’s clear to me that there is a bigger mystery going on here. For example the Red Science. SOMEONE knows about the machine other then us and the Mathmatician. Someone very dangerious with a desire to destroy the natural order. But we know nothing about them currently.
My point being, if we DO decide to use the machine for our own ends, it would be best to find and destory this person first. Which, presumably, will take the length of the other two tales, and certain ending choices.
In short, we need to pay attenton to the other two tales, pick the best ending for our purposes, and deal with this malifulent person. Maybe THEN we can use this machine (In game even) to our own ends.
Untill we find them then it poses a very real danger. [/spoiler]
Excellent story. My favourite one after the Calendar Code. Quite a highlight after the season of wrecks (They are also good stories with some lore but a little too gloomy for me).
Imposing steampunk scenes, fancy technological-utopian machine, strong intimations of conspiracy, compelling characters, and discovering instead of grinding - narratively I think it is almost as good as Lost in Reflections. The three characters who give leads are all interesting and of some complexity, and they bring views from the other side of the Masters-ruled London.
I am also satisfied with the implied identity of the ambassador, the behaviors of people of his kind, the definitions of red science and silence… all these tiny pieces of lore are adorable (But I need more! Give me another Calendar Code please:(, I beg of you, just a little bit more information;)). I play this story twice with my main and my alt and I will certainly recommend it to all my friends.
Back to the story, I am still wondering about the two notes 1 2. Maybe I misunderstand something…When you open the lock, you see a note, certainly to be sent to someone together with the blueprint of seal: it looks like the blueprint to be delivered, but have not yet been. But on the blueprint you see that the Mathematician expect the Machinesmith gone within the week in exchange for the delivered blueprint. And the Machinesmith has already gone. Both of the notes should be either the Mathematician’s handwriting or a forgery. So has a blueprint been delivered or not? If it has, what is the blueprint you got and what’s about the first note? If it hasn’t, what’s about the Machinesmith and the second note? I have thought of several possibilities but none of them fits perfectly and certainly. I feel that I either miss or misunderstand something. Anyone knows the answer please PM me or just reply with the spoiler tag. Thank you very much!
I am also wondering who can put all the forgeries in the right places. I spare the mathematician since he is a talent and I want him to talk, but there is nothing special. Looking forwards to the next two stories.
Fadewalker -
The thing that makes the most sense (at least as far as I can see) is that the Mathematician made two copies of the blueprint for the Seal of Red Science; one to deliver to the mysterious commissioner, and one to keep for himself. Which doesn’t seem that odd, even if he could never build such a Seal himself it is often standard practice to keep a copy in case the customer needs a replacement or you need to make more etc.
Then he wrote two letters to his mysterious patron, one (the one we recover) that he didn’t send, for whatever reason, and one (which we find the trace of) which he sends along with the first copy of the blueprint.
Then we come along and steal the copy of the blueprint that he kept and the first letter.
.
edited by Akernis on 11/27/2016
Akernis -
[spoiler]
[quote=Akernis]Fadewalker -
The thing that makes the most sense (at least as far as I can see) is that the Mathematician made two copies of the blueprints for the Seal of Red Science; one to deliver to the mysterious commissioner, and one to keep for himself. Which doesn’t seem that odd, even if he could never build such a Seal himself it is often standard practice to keep a copy in case the customer needs a replacement or you need to make more etc.
Then he wrote two letters to his mysterious patron, one (the one we recover) that he didn’t send, for whatever reason, and one (which we find the trace of) which he sends along with the first copy of the blueprint.
Then we come along and steal the copy of the blueprint that he kept and the first letter.[/quote]
I have considered the possibility of two sets of blueprints but then storywise I couldn’t explain why there are two versions of notes, and why he retained and locked that note: all of these should be narratively necessary. And, are the two notes different? The first note we find says that the blueprint has some components which exist only theoretically and need further work; while the other, says that the seal will seek heavens without impediment.
I take another look and I think the case might be: in the story, the first UNTIDY note is a draft before this version of blueprint has been actually completed (so there won’t be any marks of it on the blueprint), while the second is the note he sent. He kept and locked this draft as a note of the customer (patron) and the deal (in exchange of the aid in persona). Out of the story, the first draft should exist so that we can make a forgery out of it. [/spoiler]
A very enjoyable story. I really liked exploring the tales of the three characters and I just love it when the ES touch on the cosmic scale lore. As for my choice…
I let them both burn. Usually I tend to favour characters who greatly enjoy exploring things like AI, and really there is no such thing as forbidden knowledge, but FL is a shady and cutthroat world and after giving it some thought I came to some conclusions. I don’t have the power to control the machine. Sure, I was able to falsify that one note but who knows how good the machine would be in recognizing that it’s not the mathematician in the long run? Who knows what kind of failsafes he might have put into it? Who knows how much autonomous self-improvement it can do? Just because it’s polite does not mean it is incapable of doing me harm. I suppose I could hope to control the mathematician himself, but again a bit too much of a risk, if he wants the machine to optimize London he is unlikely to share my sentiment for setting it all up for my personal benefit (on that note if that "desire" is hard coded into the machine it could even offer resistance of its own), and then things could happen to me. He could find a way to call upon his mysterious benefactor, or use the engine to calculate how putting out an innocent order for freshly baked buns sets in motion a chain of events that has me locked up in the labyrinth of tigers…
Also, that whole thing about subverting the laws of nature? I approve of the idea, I have a destiny that says I’m going to rise above my mortal station and if breaking some (Great) chains has to be done for that to happen so much worse for said chains… but that does not mean I’m going to let it happen whenever and in whatever manner. I will not leave a mechanical mind, or a person who knows how to recreate it, behind to quietly tick away at a formula that cracks the cosmos in half. I will be the one to do away with laws of nature as I see fit and I do not enjoy competition in the field.
If I had my way I would stop the machine and lock up both it and the mathematician for further use, possibly after interrogating the mathematician first about his benefactor.