A Favor For a Favor?

Fallen London
1

Okay so first of all, keep in mind that I’m not a expert on this game by any means. I may grossly under or over estimate values of items, it may not be as big as issue as i think it is ETC.

But a point was raised regarding the new Favor system that I though interesting. Basically, it is that (With the exception of low level carnival) the only ways to get Favors in game are either by cards or by fate. In short, you can either rely on luck of the draw, or pay real money for them.

Right now, this is not a issue, but I note the potential issue further down the road. Namely, when EVERY Connection is done this way. It means that every connection from now on would require either luck or payment.

Now here is what I propose to resolve this potential bad situation, albeit it a vague one.

You are all familiar with the term &quotYou scrach my back I scrach yours?&quot Well my idea is simply that. In short, there is a permanent option in places to do favors for factions. Maybe a big time criminal wants you to cover for his crimes. Maybe the Docks need a extra hand to deliver some secrue cargo for The Masters. Either way, it’s going to cost you. (Not sure what though. Items seem too expensive and menaces seem to petty) You do this for them, then they owe ya one AKA you get a favor with that faction.

(Note: What I was thinkinng was this would have some other consequenece then manaces (Too easy to reduce), Items (can be hard to replace) or renown or Favors (sort of defeats the point a bit.) Maybe you could only do so much before Time The Healer, or maybe make it cost lots of actions? I don’t know.)
edited by Kylestien on 3/10/2016

2

What do you mean by using Fate to gain Favours? Do you refer to forcing the relevant connection card using Favourable Circumstances? Because if so:

  1. This doesn’t necessarily cost Fate, as you can get Favourable Circumstances with Notability
  2. This won’t necessarily work for all factions. With the recent change, the Docks faction card only provides a new ‘Favours: The Docks’ if you already have exactly 3-4 such Favours. Drop below 3 and the card is useless. Gain more than 4 and you have to spend one first.

If you had another Fate based method in mind, please remind me.

[quote=Kylestien]Right now, this is not a issue, but I note the potential issue further down the road. Namely, when EVERY Connection is done this way. It means that every connection from now on would require either luck or payment.

Now here is what I propose to resolve this potential bad situation, albeit it a vague one.[/quote]
You have not yet stated why you feel this is a &quotbad situation&quot. Especially after claiming it’s not so bad that only a few factions behave this way.

The new Favours system is meant to be limited (you can’t hoard Favours - 7 is the number), transient (Favours come and go), and, yes, luck based (or at least, situation-based). Your character is not meant to plan out on how to collect Favours from everyone. Instead, you gain Favours by playing the right opportunities that life in the Neath throws your way.

Here’s a thought that I had (no idea if this fits at all with FBG’s direction here, but it seems fun):
How about make Favours convertible from one faction to another in a ring, like is done with 3rd tier items?

For example:
Maybe you have 1 x Favours: Criminals. This means that you’ve helped some criminal elements and they owe you one.
Now, you actually want to have a Favour with, let’s say, the Docks. So you play an action (either a storylet or from the Favour item), in which you go to your criminal buddies, and tell them: &quotHey! remember that Favour you owe me? I’d appreciate it if you help my Docker buddy over here with his landlord.&quot (Criminal burns the landlord’s house down; Docker is grateful; you lose 1 x Favours: Criminals; you gain 1 x Favours: The Docks).

And so on (Dockers demand docking and handling fees from an agent of the Widow; Call in that Favours: The Docks; gain 1 x Favours: The Widow), etc. etc.
The possibility are endless. Doesn’t even have to be a ring - lots of potential inter-connections on that web.

3

[quote]
What do you mean by using Fate to gain Favours? Do you refer to forcing the relevant connection card using Favourable Circumstances? Because if so:

  1. This doesn’t necessarily cost Fate, as you can get Favourable Circumstances with Notability
  2. This won’t necessarily work for all factions. With the recent change, the Docks faction card only provides a new ‘Favours: The Docks’ if you already have exactly 3-4 such Favours. Drop below 3 and the card is useless. Gain more than 4 and you have to spend one first.[/quote]

I mean you can get Favors from their respective items for 5 Fate.

[quote]You have not yet stated why you feel this is a &quotbad situation&quot. Especially after claiming it’s not so bad that only a few factions behave this way.

The new Favours system is meant to be limited (you can’t hoard Favours - 7 is the number), transient (Favours come and go), and, yes, luck based (or at least, situation-based). Your character is not meant to plan out on how to collect Favours from everyone. Instead, you gain Favours by playing the right opportunities that life in the Neath throws your way. [/quote] I can understand that, which is why I like you r idea below:

[quote]Here’s a thought that I had (no idea if this fits at all with FBG’s direction here, but it seems fun):
How about make Favours convertible from one faction to another in a ring, like is done with 3rd tier items?

For example:
Maybe you have 1 x Favours: Criminals. This means that you’ve helped some criminal elements and they owe you one.
Now, you actually want to have a Favour with, let’s say, the Docks. So you play an action (either a storylet or from the Favour item), in which you go to your criminal buddies, and tell them: &quotHey! remember that Favour you owe me? I’d appreciate it if you help my Docker buddy over here with his landlord.&quot (Criminal burns the landlord’s house down; Docker is grateful; you lose 1 x Favours: Criminals; you gain 1 x Favours: The Docks).

And so on (Dockers demand docking and handling fees from an agent of the Widow; Call in that Favours: The Docks; gain 1 x Favours: The Widow), etc. etc.
The possibility are endless. Doesn’t even have to be a ring - lots of potential inter-connections on that web.[/quote]

You see, I actualy like this plan more then my plan. It keeps the whole card thing but opens up options for conversion. So you still have luck based, but you have more options since you can get a Bohemian favor and trade it in for a Criminal fa vor or something. More favor sources, more option for other favors.
edited by Kylestien on 3/10/2016

4

[quote=Kylestien][quote]
What do you mean by using Fate to gain Favours?[/quote]
I mean you can get Favors from their respective items for 5 Fate.[/quote]
Ah, yes. Completely forgot about that option (I doubt I’ve ever used it for any faction).

5

As a matter of fact, you can get Favor for Docks reliably by Providing Sage Advice at Wolfstack Docks. It is somewhat expensive at a cost of 5 Echoes and can only be traded out for 3 Echoes directly, though.

So, for now, one out of two factions have a grindable favour storylet.

6

There’s likely another grindable storylet for Docks Favours at the end of the Mutton Island carousel. It’s off at sea, of course, but for those with ships it might be a better deal (at least if you have other reasons to go to Mutton Island). [UPDATE: nope, it’s not a better deal, since it only gives 1 Favour now as opposed to 150 CP of Connected:Docks – which seems like either a mistake or an intentional and large nerf.]

Oh, and I think the exchanging of one Favour for another type is how the current &quotconflict cards&quot are going to end up working, no? So the suggestion is basically equivalent to asking for those to be turned into storylets rather than cards.
edited by metasynthie on 3/10/2016

7

Possibly. Though some conflict cards don’t work that way (Crime or Punishment? costs Connections/Favours of one side and doesn’t increase the other’s).

But you’re probably right.

8

[quote=metasynthie]There’s likely another grindable storylet for Docks Favours at the end of the Mutton Island carousel. It’s off at sea, of course, but for those with ships it might be a better deal (at least if you have other reasons to go to Mutton Island). [UPDATE: nope, it’s not a better deal, since it only gives 1 Favour now as opposed to 150 CP of Connected:Docks – which seems like either a mistake or an intentional and large nerf.]

Oh, and I think the exchanging of one Favour for another type is how the current &quotconflict cards&quot are going to end up working, no? So the suggestion is basically equivalent to asking for those to be turned into storylets rather than cards.
edited by metasynthie on 3/10/2016[/quote]
Not really. Conflict cards, if i understand correctly, turn multiple favors into a lower but not insignificant number of favors for the other side with a profit, but it’s reliably a net loss of favors. What would be nice is a way to get just one favor in a pinch- like the normal carosel of .5 echo items, but, imo, somewhat costly instead of cheap, so it’s never the optimal route for actual moneymaking, just for getting favors fast when you need them for story or upwards conversion.

9

It’s the other way around – although there are exception like what dov noted for a couple &quothigh level conflict cards,&quot all the regular conflict cards result in a net gain of connections (and now favours), not a loss. I’ve built up many thousands of CPs of connected exclusively in this manner, so I’m pretty sure – and the structure does not seem to be changing for Favours. For instance, on the Urchins-Docks conflict card:

  • siding with Urchins: lose 1 Docks Favour, gain 30 CP Urchins
  • siding with Docks: gain 3 Docks Favour, lose 15 CP Urchins

If you play a particular conflict card twice and switch who you’re siding with, you always end up with more of both sides’ quality than you started with. When Urchins Favour is introduced, I imagine that will be &quotlose 1, get 3&quot in either direction. (I’m surprised, I figured these would be 2:1 gain ratio and not 3:1, but maybe they’re still balancing – if they stick with this pattern it’ll be 4 Favours in 2 actions, which seems a little too good, even for cards.)
edited by metasynthie on 3/10/2016

10

2 actions to get +4 favours, then 4 actions to cash those favours at presumed 300 pences per favour: 1200p/6a=200 ppa - not bad, but not out of line

11

[quote=metasynthie]

It’s the other way around – although there are exception like what dov noted for a couple &quothigh level conflict cards,&quot all the regular conflict cards result in a net gain of connections (and now favours), not a loss. I’ve built up many thousands of CPs of connected exclusively in this manner, so I’m pretty sure – and the structure does not seem to be changing for Favours. For instance, on the Urchins-Docks conflict card:

  • siding with Urchins: lose 1 Docks Favour, gain 30 CP Urchins
  • siding with Docks: gain 3 Docks Favour, lose 15 CP Urchins

If you play a particular conflict card twice and switch who you’re siding with, you always end up with more of both sides’ quality than you started with. When Urchins Favour is introduced, I imagine that will be &quotlose 1, get 3&quot in either direction. (I’m surprised, I figured these would be 2:1 gain ratio and not 3:1, but maybe they’re still balancing – if they stick with this pattern it’ll be 4 Favours in 2 actions, which seems a little too good, even for cards.)
edited by metasynthie on 3/10/2016[/quote]
Keep in mind that these conflict cards have a very narrow window of oppurtunity. Assuming that Urchins have a similar appearance range to docks, you need Favors 3 or 4 for both factions. for instance, in the above example, the only stable oscilation is &quotFavor Docks&quot, &quotSpend 2 Favors: Docks&quot, &quotFavor Urchins&quot, &quotSpend 2 Favors Urchins&quot. It’s still kinda OP, but it takes such careful faction manipulation you could make a case for it being perfectly balanced, and there are other gamebreaking trinkets we’ll be losing soon, or at least finding less viable. (I’ll miss you, excessively grindable &quoteverybody deserves a second chance.&quot Don’t get me wrong, that’ll still appear, but i do think it’ll be harder to reliably pick.)

The choice is to spend your favors on one-or-two actions, which would pay worse, or at least less flexibly, or stockpile, burn it all in one go, and profit more when you cash in, but also build up more slowly. (best 1 favor docks use i am aware of is to get 4 expeditions supplies for the favor and rostygold, which is pretty good payout, but only if you can put expeditions to use profitably. The inferior option is 3 echoes, for one action.)

Either way, criminal favors are pretty potent, so i’m not surprised these are too.
edited by Grenem on 3/10/2016

12

[quote=xKiv][quote=metasynthie]
…(I’m surprised, I figured these would be 2:1 gain ratio and not 3:1, but maybe they’re still balancing – if they stick with this pattern it’ll be 4 Favours in 2 actions, which seems a little too good, even for cards.)
[/quote]

2 actions to get +4 favours, then 4 actions to cash those favours at presumed 300 pences per favour: 1200p/6a=200 ppa - not bad, but not out of line[/quote]
Admittedly, a more favorable interpretation is 2 actions for +2 docks and +2 urchins. Urchins are a presumed 3 echoes per favor = 6 echoes for 3 actions, and docks are 4 expeditions supplies, (currently competing with whispered secrets at estimated 1.3 echoes per supply, so let’s call it 5.2 echoes, less 50 pence for the rostygold, is 4.7 echoes. this actually saves actions, but let’s pretend it doesn’t for simplicity’s sake) 4 expeditiion supplies per favor = 4.7 echoes per favor = 9.4 echoes for three actions.

15.4/6 = 2.566 epa. (OFC, this definition makes expeditions excessively profitable: take blue heaven, for instance: 55.59 echoes payout - 23.5 echoes favors = 32.09 echoes for the act of the expedition itself. doing the expedition itself can be, and for me is, a 10 action process, with an average 3.2 epa payout. if we rebalance the numbers so that doing expeditions is only at 2 epa, we get a far more generous estimate on favor’s value.)

Expedition using 2 supplies per action with no failures: (13 actions)
2.468 epa. revaluing the supplies to scale, making this a 2 epa grind, and dock’s favors are now worth 5.91 echoes.
(11.82+6)/6 = 17.82/6 = 2.97 epa

this makes the card pay out 2.97 echoes per action using the stable cycle.

Expedition using 3 supplies per action with no failures: (10 actions)
3.209 epa. revaluing the dock’s supplies to scale and making this a 2 epa grind, and dock’s favors are now worth 7.11 echoes
7.11*2= 14.22
(14.22+6)/6 = 3.372 echoes per action using the stable cycle.

So this could be between slightly OP to overgoat card levels, but it’s not at the levels of that one-time bug where you could get your professional payment as many times as you had actions to spare. And no matter how OP this is, we’re assuming urchins are only giving 3 echoes for their favors. i expect i’ll be using this conflict card a lot before they implement urchin’s favors, regardless, as that’s going to be ludicrously lucrative for me: 4.744 epa at most generous and 3.94 epa at least generous, less the urchins connection loss.
edited by Grenem on 3/10/2016

13

[quote=Estelle Knoht]As a matter of fact, you can get Favor for Docks reliably by Providing Sage Advice at Wolfstack Docks. It is somewhat expensive at a cost of 5 Echoes and can only be traded out for 3 Echoes directly, though.

So, for now, one out of two factions have a grindable favour storylet.[/quote]

I just attempted this, and did not receive any favours for it.

[li]

14

[quote=South-Sea Rutherby]
I just attempted this, and did not receive any favours for it.[/quote]

They just changed it, along with the description text. It is a sub-par upconvert option with no connection requirement now - it rewarded favours briefly after the renown switch.

15

[li]That is disappointing. I am now left wondering how I will be able to obtain more Favours: the Docks now that my options seem so limited…

16

All favors have limited options, sadly. the best method is simply to keep using conflict cards. They’ll only appear between favors 3 and 4, though.

The full list is here, and it’s pretty short:
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic21908-a-way-to-gain-favours-docks.aspx

17

That said, it is currently much, much easier to get criminal favours than dock favours, so I wouldn’t be surprised if a few more options to gain them crops up.

18

Just a note: a single Docks favour allowed Meradine (newish arrival) to change to a tier 1 profession (replacing 25 connected, I gather).