Home ▶ Sunless Sea

A game of survival, trade and exploration in the universe of Fallen London

Why does everyone hate the New Sequence?

Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/18/2016	Both in-universe and among players, the New Sequence seems to be regarded as an evil and cultish entity. I have never quite understood why that is. Maybe there is something wrong with me, lol. By my understanding the Bazaar/Sun relationship is twisted and results in an incredible amount of suffering, the rules of the Neath are quite hellish, and someone who would seek to free the common people from that tangled web (without pointlessly destroying everything!) at least has honorable intentions even if they don't go about it perfectly. I keep seeing references to the New Sequence's "extremist" beliefs that they will impose on London if/when they gain Supremacy. What are these beliefs and where in the game(s) are they mentioned? -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+3 link
Passionario Posts: 777 9/21/2016	The Dawn Machine is an equivalent of a feral child raised by swamp frogs. It is not a fully functioning Judgment, it will probably never become one without contact with others of its kind, and it certainly doesn't have the best interests of the frogs in mind. -- Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending Passion: Profile, Appearance
	+9 link
John Moose Posts: 276 9/22/2016	"Worm-fates crawl on your skin. The Machine is sick. Its hatred threads your veins. Time will die. The Chain will end. " This sounds less like something with a conscious goal of ascending to godhood and caring for its servants on the way, and more like an abomination that should never have been born lashing out at the rest of existence for its own constant suffering. Huh, I'm starting to like the little clockwork.
	+8 link
phryne Posts: 1351 9/18/2016	I guess most people just don't like the idea of being mind-controlled by a sentient machine... -- Accounts: Bag a Legend • Light Fingers • Heart's Desire • Nemesis • no ambition Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writer ― Favours & Renown Guide
	+8 link
John Moose Posts: 276 9/18/2016	The New Sequence is a perfectly valid political choice whose success will ensure a joyous future for you and the lessening of tyranny directed at you. If you're the Dawn Machine. Otherwise, happy slavery, worker ant.
	+7 link
Julius Stokes Posts: 113 9/21/2016	Well, to answer your question, first we must -THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN TH- And that's why it's illegal to lick doorknobs on other planets. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Julias~Stokes - A revolutionary of his own sort, who has devoted his life to overthrowing the Bazaar, ascending to godhood, and saving London. Doesn't have to be in that order. I'll accept any social actions - except maybe suspicious loitering.
	+7 link
Kyron The Wise Posts: 45 9/21/2016	Gonna put aside the free will debate, and instead focus on a different answer. The Dawn Machine is not your friend. What it seeks to do is become powerful, and overthrow the Judgements, via the process of ending the Great Chain that dictates our place in the universe (Chain isn't quite inviolable, but it's pretty close). Now, while I'm all for ending the Chain, here's what you need to consider: Do you want the Dawn Machine to be the new boss? All it really cares about is getting to the top, not bringing everyone else along. Sure, it speaks of ending the chain, but much like other demagogues throughout history, especially given how the thing behaves, it is pretty likely it would institute something far worse. Hell, even the process of ending the Chain could be catastrophic. Though not indicative of what will happen in every attempt to end the Chain, when the Red Science was used to break part of it, Time itself was scarred. Now, maybe there are ways to end the Chain without catastrophic destruction. The Dawn Machine likely just would not care. To sum things up, the Dawn Machine is an artificial Judgement, reviled by the actual Judgements, and is willing to do anything to tear them down. We (humans) are mere tools. I may not like the Judgements, and would prefer to overthrow them as well, but even I wouldn't turn to the Dawn Machine. It takes over, it is unlikely that we will survive, let alone benefit from its war against everything. Some may hate the Dawn Machine for what it is, I hate the Dawn Machine for what it is willing to do. edited by Kyron The Wise on 9/21/2016 -- Kyron The Wise, Correspondent, and thus always a wee bit insane. Also now on the Seeking Road, I do not desire Mr. Eaten's name, but pursue the identity of another name. (Main Account): http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Kyron~The~Wise Secondary, previously dreaming of Parabola, now dreaming of the Name, account: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Librari You can argue with me, and you might even defeat my points. But somewhere along the way I may use philosophy to make you question existence. Who's the real winner?
	+6 link
Pyrodinium Posts: 639 9/20/2016	Pros of liking the New Sequence: 1. THE SUN! 2. THE SUN! 3. THE SUN! 4. THE SUN! 5. THE SUN! -- My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium (A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter) http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured (an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage) * All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
	+6 link
Emain Ablach Posts: 348 9/19/2016	From what we see in the texts, the Dawn Machine clearly forces people to think in a certain way and rob them of their ability to think for themselves. Do the Judgements do the same thing ? Maybe, but we have no proof. Maybe we can. Within the New Sequence, we know we cannot. Having a hope of freedom seems more interesting to me (that's just my own opinion, I don't expect others to share it) than having absolutely no hope. That's quite simple. edited by Emain Ablach on 9/19/2016 edited by Emain Ablach on 9/19/2016 -- Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him. https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Emain%20Ablach
	+5 link
Barse Posts: 706 9/18/2016	The Dawn Machine is a semi-sentient, completely mad machine that thinks it's a god, and has just enough power to make itself a threat - it needs to go! Mind you, so do the rest of the Judgements, so... In all seriousness I would welcome obscure New Sequence lore and things, I don't know a lot about them. -- The Scorched Sailor, up for most social actions and RP. Not as scary as he looks.
	+5 link
suinicide Posts: 2409 9/19/2016	There is a difference between removing an option, and removing people's desire for that option. The Judgements gave us gravity, but they never said "You can't want to fly". So we still have free will, we can want to break the rules. It's putting the thoughts into action that's hard. The Judgements restrict freedom, not free will. Also I don't think the dawn machine has complete mind control. You can find some ex-members, so unless something really undercover is happening, it's possible to break free. But on the other hand everyone exclaiming THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN, and having the navy sink their entire budget, ignoring their actual jobs and defense, into it, is not natural. edited by suinicide on 9/19/2016 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
	+4 link
Mr Sables Posts: 597 9/19/2016	Emain Ablach wrote: From what we see in the texts, the Dawn Machine clearly forces people to think in a certain way and rob them of their ability to think for themselves. Do the Judgements do the same thing ? Maybe, but we have no proof. Maybe we can. Within the New Sequence, we know we cannot. Having a hope of freedom seems more interesting to me than having absolutely no hope. That's quite simple. edited by Emain Ablach on 9/19/2016 True, very true . . . I can't help but wonder, however, whether free will is a good thing. It reminds me of the prelapsarian state in philosophy, where the argument goes we were happier while ignorant, with knowledge being the thing that makes us suffer and often miserable . . . somewhat explored by William Blake, too, although I'm not sure whether he'd be around at the time the game was set or not (useless with maths and dates). Anyway, if knowledge can be likened to free will, we could say it's better to be in a state without free will, as opposed to having free will. At the moment, in both real-life and in the game, we have an infinite amount of choices to make. Each one has a butterfly effect into other actions and events, affecting those around us, and that's a massive responsibility to take . . . it's the downside to free will. If my action causes my happiness, but hurts another in the process, what action should I take? It's likely I may feel guilty, if I take the 'wrong' one. Then we end up with debates about morality, ethics, the nature of mankind, the nature of life . . . you end up spending most of your time debating, discussing, thinking, instead of acting, because then things lead to 'meaning of life' type discussions. If we lack free will, we are no longer responsible for anything we do. It feels like the ultimate freedom, paradoxically, because you will no longer feel guilt or shame or any human emotion, as nothing you do would be your fault . . . no longer would you have to debate or think or discuss, as all your opinions and ideas are decided for you . . . you'd sacrifice your humanity, but there would potentially be a sense of peace in no longer having to weigh up every choice, whether you're selfish or selfless, as every option will lead you to wonder 'what if'. No more 'what ifs'. I'm not sure why I'm arguing this, as I'm totally against the Dawn Machine and associated philosophies, but it does strike me as interesting why we all cling to free will so strongly . . . it's like when people fear oblivion after death, maybe we fear it because we literally cannot comprehend/imagine an existence aside from our current state. Maybe we think free will is so great, because it's all we know . . . edited by Robin Alexander on 9/19/2016
	+4 link
Ysrthgrathe Posts: 87 9/19/2016	Morgan Joylighter wrote: Why Does Everyone Hate The New Sequence? Most folks unfortunately are anti-progressive Luddites and Swing Rioters. So the wise radical must find a way to change the extent of what citizens will let themselves be forced to do whats good for them -- https://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Ysrthgrathe
	+4 link
A Dimness Posts: 613 9/26/2016	Can I just state for the record that you can not use predeterminism as an argument in favour of the Dawn Machine? Free will is an intricate concept and there's no singular correct answer to seal the argument with. Claiming that we're solely chemical compounds doesn't defend your point that the tyranny of an insane god-machine imposing its mind-rape on people results in an equal amount of free will. I could argue with the same basic facts that you'd be taking away our illusion of free will which is just as bad, or that just because we have free will doesn't mean we don't feel like we have it and that feeling like you have free will is equal to actually having it. edited by Infinity Simulacrum on 9/26/2016 -- A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
	+4 link
Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493 8/25/2017	Even if the Dawn Machine did entirely what the New Sequence wanted it to do, I would still oppose it, because the New Sequence are a bunch of reactionaries who are willing to swindle London for massive sums for a vanity project with no greater benefit than pretending they're still living in the glory days of bloody colonialism. -- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
	+4 link
Emain Ablach Posts: 348 9/23/2016	Morgan Joylighter wrote: I missed this post earlier but this is probably the best summation of why I feel that, in the face of a Chain that's too knotted up to reasonably persist, but a world that still contains too much love and beauty to just super-nuke it to death with reckless abandon, the Dawn Machine seems like the lesser of several evils... "Worm-fates crawl on your skin. The Machine is sick. Its hatred threads your veins. Time will die. The Chain will end. " <--- John Moose quoted this bit of text about the Machine. Still thinking that a godlike Machine filled with hatred is a "lesser evil" ? @Gul al-Ahlaam On the topic of a machine doing what is was designed to do, the Dawn Machine is exactly the opposite of that. It got free from what its creators intended. Kind of like a Singularity. What it does and wants is now its own, and is no longer bound to the intent of its makers. I find it interesting and troubling how you seem, Morgan Joylighter, to consider the Judgements are utterly evil when they are linked to law and harmony (forced upon you without your consent, it's true), while the Machine is linked to mind-control and hatred. I'm very interested in reading your thoughts about each of the "bad" aspects of the Machine that some of us talked about. edited by Emain Ablach on 9/23/2016 -- Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him. https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Emain%20Ablach
	+4 link
Isaac Zienfried Posts: 364 8/25/2017	Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote: swindle London for massive sums for a vanity project with no greater benefit than pretending they're still living in the glory days of bloody colonialism. So... politics as usual, then? -- Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.' A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals. But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
	+3 link
Arthur Quietus Posts: 8 8/26/2017	Change without progress sounds kind of nice. And pretty sure one of the benefits of the Dawn Machine is wind; at least, I may assume it is. And think how smoothly things will run! I like the Dawn Machine precisely because I dislike the Anarchists and all they stand for; supporting the Dawn Machine and building a star in their own backyard seems like a pretty solid way of tweaking them. Soon all of them will be dancing to the New Sequence's tune, and if selling the entire Neath into servitude to a human-made mad, blind god for the purpose of annoying Liberationists is wrong, I don't want to be right. I'm mostly joking, but I don't see it as too far distant a comparison actually. Taking the position of Devil's Advocate (heh), Anarchists are out there trying to get rid of all light and laws in the universe, (which, even if it works, is still stupid), despite the fact that a good deal of us would very much rather continue to have both of these! If they insist on continuing to try and enforce their "liberation" on the unwilling people of the Neath because 'they know better than us what is good for us', I don't see why the New Sequence shouldn't get a shot at trying to rewrite the rules themselves. At least the New Sequence is a lot more honest about trying to rewrite the world to their will; the Liberation has the audacity to claim it speaks for all of us (it doesn't speak for me least), while the Dawn Machine at least has the honesty to admit that it wants what it wants and not what you want. Vote the Dawn Machine for a New Tomorrow! (Literally; without the sun there is by definition no "day" in the Neath, and thus, no "tomorrow" either. No faction in the Neath other than the New Sequence can claim to bring about any sort of tomorrow, let alone a new one!)
	+3 link
Gul al-Ahlaam Posts: 225 9/22/2016	Perhaps one is unhappy with the manner by which the Judgements run the world. Perhaps the Liberation does not seem so appealing. Perhaps what one desires is not an abolition of the Chain, but a change in its order. A Chain, perhaps, that is more permissive, or less permissive, or places ants above alligators, or so on. Perhaps one wants a voice of one's own among the judgements, which speaks for the needs and desires of its creators (and how could it do anything else? it's a machine, after all. everything it does expresses the intention of the engineer. made in the image, as it were). Perhaps one wants to hedge one's bets, so to speak, against the chaos of Liberation. Perhaps one is attracted by the fawning love and devotion it inspires in its supplicants? Stranger things have happened. -- The Uncanny Hierophant. The Jewel-Eyed Prince.
	+3 link
Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/21/2016	Pyrodinium wrote: Pros of liking the New Sequence: 1. THE SUN! 2. THE SUN! 3. THE SUN! 4. THE SUN! 5. THE SUN! You forgot "HE SUN". And "T". edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/21/2016 -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+3 link
Sir Goomy Posts: 111 9/21/2016	Julias Stokes wrote: Well, to answer your question, first we must -THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN TH- And that's why it's illegal to lick doorknobs on other planets. There is a huge problem with your post, mate! You haven't written and praised THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN enough! -- Social actions, invites, roleplaying and general merrymaking is more than welcomed! http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sir~Goo
	+3 link
Emain Ablach Posts: 348 9/21/2016	You probably mean "UN THE SUN THE SUN THE S". -- Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him. https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Emain%20Ablach
	+3 link
Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/19/2016	Honestly, I think the only reason we consider the natural laws of the universe to be less violating of free will is because we're so used to them. They're not any less tyrannical or free-will-violating because we're born (or reborn, in the Neath) immersed in them. Just adding the law of gravity, for example, removes the free will choice to be able to fly (for most creatures). Any set of rules and laws is naturally violating free will and I have yet to see anything specific about the Dawn Machine's idea of a natural order that seems particularly more terrible than any other. I am not claiming to be right and I would very much welcome any specific references from FL and SS that document that the Dawn Machine removes all free will or is an insane god. I have read everything I can find on the subject and I have yet to find any evidence of this in the games. edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/19/2016 edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/19/2016 -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+3 link
Sir Goomy Posts: 111 9/19/2016	Good on you Robin, I was about to write something very similar to what you said. Fact Indeed is that having free will or not ultimately doesn't really matter, since both technically have strong ups and downs. And neither is in reality good or bad. They are just different perspecives/views on things. Different paths to be doing the one and only thing that truly really matters in the big picture. Which is - existing, to exist, to be. And with that said and fully back on topic - I can say that people hate it out of existential-related fears, out of choice and of course, out of ignorance. edited by Sir Goomy on 9/19/2016 -- Social actions, invites, roleplaying and general merrymaking is more than welcomed! http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sir~Goo
	+3 link
Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/19/2016	The thing is, we don't decide what we want. It's the internal rules of our bodies and brains and psychology that determine what we want. So I don't see much of a difference in terms of removing free will. I might just like chanting THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN though... -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+3 link
suinicide Posts: 2409 9/19/2016	They allow us to know of them, hate them, and plot the liberation of night (There are revolutionary people on the surface). If they are capable of mind control (I wouldn't put it past them) they either aren't using it, or just don't care enough about humanity to be bothered. Or the liberation of night can't work. edited by suinicide on 9/19/2016 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
	+3 link
Teaspoon Posts: 866 9/18/2016	Yes, the descriptions I have seen of it seem to discard the entire concept of "free will" as an unimportant matter...there's lots wrong with the Judgements, but they at least allow people to do what they want at their own level. -- Truth lies at the bottom of a well. https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Alt%20Ern
	+3 link
Curious Foreigner Posts: 210 9/18/2016	The Judgements and their laws are bearable because they are far away from us. The Dawn Machine is right here in the Neath. It will kill everything down here it considers Should-Not-Be, and I'm not going to wait around hoping I'm not falling into that category. -- Cochimetl went North, and beyond. No poems, only candlelight now. (Well, maybe one poem.) The Gun-Toting Gallivanter, after an extended absence, is back in London again.
	+2 link
templerlord Posts: 6 9/20/2016	People hate the Dawn Machine because they know that their free will is threatened. People dislike the Judgements because they know their freedom is reduced. Yet I have to say, is that living under the fear of three gods really more free? And the more important questions is, free from what? Free for what? That comes back to the free will topic. You can't say you are brainwashed if you could still know the absence of free will. If you are already been brainwashed, then you'll just think that you still have full free will. So, it is possible that the Neath brainwashed everyone who entered it, and force them to think that the realm of darkness and grim gods are more better then the realm of sun, force them to think that they are perfectly innocent and don't deserve to be destroyed by themselves. I'm not saying that's the truth, but that's a possibility which you can't prove false. So the fact is, we are still choosing what to believe by our interests, instead of by reason - because some reason just lies beyond our knowledge. So, I for one, don't hate the Dawn Machine, nor other judgements. Praise the Sun! edited by templerlord on 9/20/2016 edited by templerlord on 9/20/2016
	+2 link
Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/19/2016	+1 for excellent double entendre use of "Luddite". -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+2 link
absimiliard Posts: 759 9/21/2016	I believe Passionario has just summed up the situation perfectly. Nice metaphor sir. Though I might add that it is an incredibly dangerous feral child -- from a frog's point of view. -- "Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend. Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
	+2 link
Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/19/2016	Yeah, maybe my brain works differently from most people or I missed a philosophy course but I don't understand why most people seem to think we have so much free will (both in real life and in SS/FL) when everything we want is determined by external factors even when the desires "seem" to be coming from inside ourselves. Who just "decides" of their own free will to like pizza or fried chicken or rubbery lumps? Hardly anyone...we just instinctively like those things because they give us the flavor sensations and mouth feel that our bodies are programmed to crave. Who decides of their own free will to highly value love? Very few people...it's just automatically compelling by its very nature...a nature that someone else decided or "programmed". I have always thought free will was only free from a certain point of view... On the other hand, I don't have any particular evidence that the New Sequence's version of an ideal world is particularly nice to live in. My siding with them is more a function of the other side seeming particularly bleak, the Dawn Machine being a g-d*mn cool-looking piece of machinery, and the Voracious Diplomat being the most likeable money-producing character in the game (to me). -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+2 link
Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/23/2016	Gul al-Ahlaam wrote: Perhaps one is unhappy with the manner by which the Judgements run the world. Perhaps the Liberation does not seem so appealing. Perhaps what one desires is not an abolition of the Chain, but a change in its order. A Chain, perhaps, that is more permissive, or less permissive, or places ants above alligators, or so on. Perhaps one wants a voice of one's own among the judgements, which speaks for the needs and desires of its creators (and how could it do anything else? it's a machine, after all. everything it does expresses the intention of the engineer. made in the image, as it were). Perhaps one wants to hedge one's bets, so to speak, against the chaos of Liberation. Perhaps one is attracted by the fawning love and devotion it inspires in its supplicants? Stranger things have happened. I missed this post earlier but this is probably the best summation of why I feel that, in the face of a Chain that's too knotted up to reasonably persist, but a world that still contains too much love and beauty to just super-nuke it to death with reckless abandon, the Dawn Machine seems like the lesser of several evils... sort of like the cosmically philosophical version of "no taxation without representation"...an ideal that I'm surprised more people are not on board with considering how much Western culture glorifies the ideal of the free-spirited revolutionary, and by that I do not mean the anarchist kind but the "build a better society" kind. Speaking of fawning love, I keep following all the New Sequence / Dawn Machine plot threads just hoping I will find out why I instantly felt so drawn to the damn thing as soon as I happened to discover it in the southwestern corner of the map. I can't think of another more enchanting moment of discovery in a video game. Everything about it from the artwork to the sound design to the name to the concept is just utterly alluring I'm obsessed with figuring out the non-obvious reason for that. edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/23/2016 -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+2 link
A Dimness Posts: 613 8/26/2017	Arthur Quietus wrote: Taking the position of Devil's Advocate (heh) Ok. So you saw an argument where one side was the devil, and you were like "man, that guy could use an advocate." -- A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
	+1 link
Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493 8/28/2017	I'm sure they'd say they're not traitors but the truest patriots of all. -- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
	+1 link
Scienceandponies Posts: 247 8/28/2017	With teasers of Sunless Skies mentioning London employing a clockwork sun, it seems they might have finally gotten the Dawn Machine back under control (assuming they didn't just build a second one). Unless of course, the Dawn Machine is now pulling Victoria's strings, meaning its cosmic takeover is now underway. Could make for some interesting conflict with the Liberation that is presumably already knocking off stars.
	+1 link
Morgan Joylighter Posts: 26 9/22/2016	Kyron The Wise wrote: Gonna put aside the free will debate, and instead focus on a different answer. ...shortened for thread readability... Some may hate the Dawn Machine for what it is, I hate the Dawn Machine for what it is willing to do. edited by Kyron The Wise on 9/21/2016 I am not saying you are wrong, i'm just genuinely asking, where in the game(s) is all of this related? I brought New Sequence / Dawn Machine supremacy up high enough to kick the admiral out of London and pursued every associated storyline I could find other than the end of the Carnelian Exile which seemed relevant. The only other source of info I have heard is the Last Dog Society and Wry Functionary content in FL which I intend to buy ASAP. Is there anything else I am missing outside of those? It's hard for me to believe that a machine that's so beautiful could be so cold and heartless to the ones who perceive it as beautiful (me and other humans, presumably, I'm pretty sure I'm not THAT alone). But appearances can be deceiving of course. edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/22/2016 -- Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will
	+1 link
Mr Sables Posts: 597 9/19/2016	suinicide wrote: They allow us to know of them, hate them, and plot the liberation of night (There are revolutionary people on the surface). If they are capable of mind control (I wouldn't put it past them) they either aren't using it, or just don't care enough about humanity to be bothered. At the risk of being 'that guy'. . . Who's to say that they aren't using such powers? If the Judgements have such abilities, it's entirely possible they have created the illusion of free will. It might be through more insidious means, such as real-life psychological tactics or some level of unknown involvement with London, or it might work through outright mind-control. If they create in you the desire to fly, that desire isn't free will, as it isn't coming from you, but - as the one feeling such desire - you have no reason to assume it would come from elsewhere, thus believing you have free will. It could even be the success/failure of LON could contribute to something greater that they want or need . . . I think I vaguely remember one master suffering a great deal in one destiny, which was caused by those same people, and I think he was missing in other destinies . . . if you wanted to be rid of someone without anyone knowing you were involved, mind control and the illusion of free will works wonders. edited by Robin Alexander on 9/19/2016
	+1 link
Optimatum Posts: 3666 9/26/2016	I'm pretty sure the Dawn Machine literally eats souls. You know, like the normal Judgements. I'm not sure it's even polite enough to wait for true death first. -- Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome. Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
	+1 link

Failbetter Games Community

Home ▶ Sunless Sea

Why does everyone hate the New Sequence?