Felicity Chase
Posts: 62
2/6/2012
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Wieland Burandt wrote:
They say it's the letters that Helen wrote to Menelaus in the years of her imprisonment. [Unlikely, though the Correspondence would be a tragical love story, then.]
Hmm. "The symbol has been eluding you for weeks. But you think you have it… No, that cannot be right, can it? Does the Correspondence really have a symbol that indicates love?" Found in my journal again, so unfortunately I don't remember what storylet this is from. There's also a sidebar that says the Masters tax outgoing love stories, which may not be related, but I found the explicit mentions of love interesting.
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@FelicityChase
Currently accepting: Almost all social actions. But please don't send me invitations to private dinners. And Nightmares may take a very long time to accept, unless you're willing to take some of mine in return.
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T WO Chandler
Posts: 93
2/6/2012
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How does the line go? "In the deepest matters of the Bazaar, always look to love".
I suspect that the references to love are more to do with the Bazaar itself than the Correspondence.
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For secrets are their own reward.
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Guest
2/7/2012
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About correspondence between Pope an Khan, I believe there's something here:
https://www2.stetson.edu/secure/history/hy10302/popeandkhan.html
This Correspondence showed Masters that the real world leader was Mongol Empire, not Holy Roman Empire.
Regarding Xanadu and Karakorum. They both were destroyed by Ming troops in 1368 and 1388 respectively. So there was no Corresponce between them after the Fall. I'd rather say that the language fled from Xanadu to Karakorum.
Also the name Karakorum or "Kharkhorin" in Mongolian language might be translated as "black quarter/space." "Khar" means black and "khorin" probably shares the same root as the verb "khorigdoh" that means "to be imprisoned/held" or "khori (to imprison/hold). Now it's "Forgotten Quarter".
edited by Дмитрий Кеворков on 2/7/2012
edited by Дмитрий Кеворков on 2/7/2012
edited by Дмитрий Кеворков on 2/7/2012
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Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
2/7/2012
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Thank you, Dmitry!
In light of this evidence I concede that the Pope's letter was not a false lead entirely. It is definitely not THE Correspondence we're looking for, but it fits into the storyarc: If it was written in 1245, that was during Kublai Khan's lifetime, so if the Masters immediately began courting the Mongols (though they were unsuccessful for more than 100 years), his role finally becomes clear.
Dmitry Kevorkov wrote:
Also the name Karakorum or "Kharkhorin" in Mongolian language might be translated as "black quarter/space." "Khar" means black and "khorin" probably shares the same root as the verb "khorigdoh" that means "to be imprisoned/held" or "khori (to imprison/hold). Now it's "Forgotten Quarter".
Very good. This adds to the "pro-Karakorum-arguments" we already have. There are a few "pro-Xanadu-arguments" as well, though, so I'll leave this debate open for now.
edited by Rupho Schartenhauer on 3/24/2015
--
Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it.
Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely.
Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated.
Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
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colinsapherson
Posts: 191
2/7/2012
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Felicity Chase wrote:
Hmm. "The symbol has been eluding you for weeks. But you think you have it… No, that cannot be right, can it? Does the Correspondence really have a symbol that indicates love?" Found in my journal again, so unfortunately I don't remember what storylet this is from.
That is, I believe, from the rare success where you are researching the Correspondence in part 1 of the University. 'Do some actual research' is the name of the storylet.
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T WO Chandler
Posts: 93
2/7/2012
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The lucky result for for turning Incendiary Gossip into Identities Uncovered features the following line "The Manager is an ancient priest-king? Now, I saw him once writing a menu in cuneiform…". Figure that's worth noting in regards to speculation on his true identity.
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For secrets are their own reward.
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theodor_gylden
Posts: 117
2/7/2012
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T.W.O. Chandler wrote:
The lucky result for for turning Incendiary Gossip into Identities Uncovered features the following line "The Manager is an ancient priest-king? Now, I saw him once writing a menu in cuneiform…". Figure that's worth noting in regards to speculation on his true identity.
That fits well with this discovery at Bullbone Island --
It's scratched into the wall with a sharp stone. The script is primitive and the hand is clumsy. The scribe was better used to a clay tablet and a blunt reed. You've seen the script before, on a coin. You can't make out what it says, but this is definitely First City writing."
And the words of this well-used encyclopedia --
Cuneiform documents were written on clay tablets, by means of a blunt reed for a stylus.
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Journal: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/echo_theodor
Annotations & Epistles: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/
Storylet: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/11160.html
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Little The
Posts: 700
2/7/2012
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T.W.O. Chandler wrote:
I suspect that the references to love are more to do with the Bazaar itself than the Correspondence.
Actually, towards the end of the Stormy-Eyed portion of WttS, [spoiler]the Thunder speaks of "the correspondence between lover and loved"[/spoiler]. So yes, I think the Correspondence has a great deal to do with love. There's also the fact that the Bazaar itself is covered in Correspondence sigils...
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A gentleman of numerous descriptors that change far too often. Second chance and menace reduction invites are welcome.
My journey to Seek the Name is recorded for posterity here. I asked "Who is Salt?"
I am a member of the Temple Club. If you would like an invitation, feel free to request one!
Fallen London is a game of choices. When you make an important one, you can record your rationale here.
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Early
Posts: 196
2/7/2012
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It's worth considering, perhaps, that one can glean scraps of the Correspondence from Primordial Shrieks/Maniac's Prayers. This seems to point to it being quite primaeval.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Early
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Lewis Brown
Posts: 18
2/12/2012
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Forgive me if this has already been raised (and if I ramble a bit much), but in the 'Correspondance savages your dreams' opportunity, choosing to see what you can learn from the dreams nets you this little scrap of information, among others: 'Something about a journey coming to a close. Seven marks . Five are already past.' Or something very similar.
I'm sure many people have already realised the fact that London will one day be cast off by the Bazaar, perhaps sooner rather than later, and end up like the first four cities. But has it occured to anyone that this may mean there will only be a total of seven cities? I'd be interested to speculate as to why that is, and what will happen once the Bazaar has it's seventh. If the Bazaar is on a journey, then where is it going? If it all has to do with the sucking dry of the cities' love stories, then why stop at seven? Maybe the Bazaar will have enough of them then. I haven't the foggiest idea why, or what for. It might not have anything to do with love stories.
I've found references to Antilla, a mythical island known as 'the Isle of Seven Cities', that may or may not have turned out to be America. Possibly seven is just suitably mystical number. Or possibly I've just had too much of Mr Wines' marvellous Black Wings Absinthe, and this has nothing to do with the cities at all. Still, it might be worth saving up for some of that Hesperidean Cider, if only so I can still be around to see what happens to London when the Bazaar chooses it's next city. I have a hunch that it might end up being Tokyo, but that's neither here nor there. Although I would be interested to see if anyone knows how long the Bazaar keeps it's cities. Our days might be numbered.
edited by Lewis Brown on 2/12/2012
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
2/12/2012
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Seven seals, seven seas, seven days, seven wonders, seven sins, seven virtues, seven hills, seventh sons of seventh sons, seven chakras, seven plus or minus two memories. There are, as you say, a number of mystical associations attached to the number seven. What have the Fallen Cities had that has made them First through Fifth?
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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T WO Chandler
Posts: 93
2/12/2012
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Lewis Brown wrote:
Forgive me if this has already been raised (and if I ramble a bit much), but in the 'Correspondance savages your dreams' opportunity, choosing to see what you can learn from the dreams nets you this little scrap of information, among others: 'Something about a journey coming to a close. Seven marks . Five are already past.' Or something very similar.
I'm sure many people have already realised the fact that London will one day be cast off by the Bazaar, perhaps sooner rather than later, and end up like the first four cities. But has it occured to anyone that this may mean there will only be a total of seven cities? I'd be interested to speculate as to why that is, and what will happen once the Bazaar has it's seventh. If the Bazaar is on a journey, then where is it going? If it all has to do with the sucking dry of the cities' love stories, then why stop at seven? Maybe the Bazaar will have enough of them then. I haven't the foggiest idea why, or what for. It might not have anything to do with love stories.
I've found references to Antilla, a mythical island known as 'the Isle of Seven Cities', that may or may not have turned out to be America. Possibly seven is just suitably mystical number. Or possibly I've just had too much of Mr Wines' marvellous Black Wings Absinthe, and this has nothing to do with the cities at all. Still, it might be worth saving up for some of that Hesperidean Cider, if only so I can still be around to see what happens to London when the Bazaar chooses it's next city. I have a hunch that it might end up being Tokyo, but that's neither here nor there. Although I would be interested to see if anyone knows how long the Bazaar keeps it's cities. Our days might be numbered.
I, personally, intend to observe the Seventh City from as respectable a distance as I can manage, should I still be present at the time - and I do intend to be. Certain evidence that has come to my attention indicates that something unpleasant indeed may occur when the Bazaar claims it's seventh city, and even one so unrepentantly unwise as I has no wish to be there when it occurs.
After all, as any of us misguided and foolhardy souls who seek the name should know, the number seven bears some association with Mr. Eaten. An accounting is not to be postponed indefinitely, I believe it goes? I for one, dearly hope that such an accounting is not to occur at that time. On the other hand, maybe I do. At least I'd have an idea of when to get clear of the city.
The other possibility that comes to mind, are the seven marks, five of which had been clawed out, that I once found etched into the side of what I can only assume to have been one of the legendary Stone Pigs. If those marks indicate that the Stone Pigs will indeed rise at the Seventh City... well, as I have stated previously, I intend to be nowhere near the place.
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For secrets are their own reward.
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Dave
Posts: 215
2/12/2012
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T.W.O. Chandler wrote:
I, personally, intend to observe the Seventh City from as respectable a distance as I can manage, should I still be present at the time - and I do intend to be. Certain evidence that has come to my attention indicates that something unpleasant indeed may occur when the Bazaar claims it's seventh city, and even one so unrepentantly unwise as I has no wish to be there when it occurs.
I have a different take on this, personally - specifically (eaten spoilers): I am uncertain as to which way that "reckoning" will go - is Mr. Eaten the wronged party? Or is it his punishment which has been postponed? Also, while 7 is the number (and soon I will be the number), much of the Eaten storyline started with City 2. This is when whatever went wrong... went wrong. This is when the Vake began... whatever it is the Vake does (and I see hint of it in the same sequence as your quote about reckonings). So whatever happened to Mr Eaten happened after the Bazaar began... this.
So I suspect the causality behind the resolution of that certain nameless master and the 7th city is reversed from what you suggest.
So, does anyone have any guesses at alternate translations for "stone pig"? And (stone pig spoilers): Is the thing in the well in Hunter's Keep a stone pig? The others I suspect I encountered did not glow...
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The Dave, a terrifying, lethal, inescapable and sagacious gentleman
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Lewis Brown
Posts: 18
2/12/2012
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Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Seven seals, seven seas, seven days, seven wonders, seven sins, seven virtues, seven hills, seventh sons of seventh sons, seven chakras, seven plus or minus two memories. There are, as you say, a number of mystical associations attached to the number seven. What have the Fallen Cities had that has made them First through Fifth?
I'm not sure how much truth there are in these claims, but I've heard it said that the Bazaar is not altogether of this world, and perhaps ours is not the first to be visited. In that case, it might be possible that after the seventh city is done with the Bazaar might move on to another world entirely, having feasted on the love stories of the seven greatest cities our world has given life to. Whether or not it would leave anything else behind it is another matter. It seems to have left the majority of Earth untouched, with the exception of the cities it has taken possession of, so there might be hope yet.
I am beginning to sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist, though. I suppose on balance I should say that I know very little about Mr Eaten and his potential assosiations with the beginning of the Bazaar's 'journey', so this could all have something to do with something else entirely. Although I'm pretty sure love stories are still at the heart of it, no pun intended.
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Felicity Chase
Posts: 62
2/12/2012
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Dave wrote:
So, does anyone have any guesses at alternate translations for "stone pig"? And (stone pig spoilers): Is the thing in the well in Hunter's Keep a stone pig? The others I suspect I encountered did not glow...
I've heard from another source that the Latin word for "pig" is Porcus while Orcus was the Roman god of the underworld and punisher of oaths. "Stone pigs" are probably some sort of mistransation, after all...
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@FelicityChase
Currently accepting: Almost all social actions. But please don't send me invitations to private dinners. And Nightmares may take a very long time to accept, unless you're willing to take some of mine in return.
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Dave
Posts: 215
2/12/2012
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Felicity Chase wrote:
Dave wrote:
So, does anyone have any guesses at alternate translations for "stone pig"? And (stone pig spoilers): Is the thing in the well in Hunter's Keep a stone pig? The others I suspect I encountered did not glow...
I've heard from another source that the Latin word for "pig" is Porcus while Orcus was the Roman god of the underworld and punisher of oaths. "Stone pigs" are probably some sort of mistransation, after all...
Google turned up this lovely fable when I went to verify that:
A sly reproof to anyone boasting, showing off, or trying to make himself appear greater than he is. The fable says that a wolf was going to devour a pig, when the pig observed that it was Friday, and no good Catholic would eat meat on a Friday. Going on together, the wolf said to the pig, “They seem to call you by many names.” “Yes,” said the pig, “I am called swine, grunter, hog, and I know not what besides. The Latins call me porcus. ” “Porpus, do they?” said the wolf, making an intentional blunder. “Well, porpoise is a fish, and we may eat fish on a Friday.” So saying, he devoured him without another word.
Well there you go. Biblical tie-ins, pigs, mis-translation, and being eaten, all in one story. Mystery solved?
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The Dave, a terrifying, lethal, inescapable and sagacious gentleman
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Ephemerayla
Posts: 11
2/14/2012
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Regarding the origins of the Bazaar, this sidebar has always stuck out to me:
Residents have been known to say 'since the Fall', to mean, not the Biblical Fall, but the Descent of London. Well enough. But what do they mean by 'since the Bazaar was between stars'?
That gave rise to my personal pet theory, long before I began to look into discussions on the subject, that the Bazaar is indeed of extraterrestrial origins. It arrives at a planet, finds its most notable cities, and then feeds on them like a vampire until they are crumbling husks, twisted in on themselves.
Just my own impressions. Though I'm at a loss as to what could have gone so wrong with the second city...
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If my heart could beat, it would break my chest.
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Alexander von Brennenburg
Posts: 36
2/14/2012
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An interesting thing to note is that we know for certain that at least two cities managed to escape their "replacement" in some way : The fourth in the ever-enigmatic East, and the Second in the intriguing Elder Country.
It has also been suggested, I think, that the presbyterate is at least partially populated with former residents of the third city. Additionally, and this is pure speculation on my part, the mastery of claywork displayed by...whatever is in Polythreme, *might* suggest that remnants of the first city are here.
Because of their using clay as writing support, we could speculate the evolution of such a form of expression to previously unseen levels, like the claymen.
To cut it short, the premise is this : When the Bazaar "acquires" a new city, it wipes out the previous one. But their work is sloppy, allowing a significant portion of the population to escape to the darker (heh) corners of the Neath.
After all, London fell less than fifty years ago, yet possesses a colony in the carnelian coast, and the knowledge of other places across the Unterzee.
To the point : Why would the Bazaar be so upset with the second city ?
Here is what we know :
At some point, the daughters of the pharaoh (who, we established, ruled the second city for at least some time) disappear, bar one.
The remaining daughter is likely to be the Duchess, who :
a) is in love with the Cantigaster, which might be the whole culprit for the fall of the Second city.
b) is aware that the Bazaar seeks love for unknown reasons.
Former residents of the second city fled to the Elder Country.
The Elder Country sports a power of some sorts, which grants its surroundings wondrous vitaly, enough so that lush vegetation (of plants, as opposed to mushrooms) is able to grow despite having next to no light sources. This also seem to give the denizens of the Elder Country immortality as well as incredible regeneration feats. (See : Feducci.)
We can draw four conjecturse from these pieces of knowledge.
1) The Bazaar is furious that the Second city escaped its grip and found shelter in the Elder Country, where they appear nigh-invulnerable.
2) The Bazaar resent the duchess for finding out its true appetite.
3) All of the above, and perhaps more.
4) None of the above, and the Bazaar's dislike of Egyptians is linked to a completely unknown and different reason. One of which may be that the deal they made with the Second city was somehow unsatisfying.
Well, that turned out less brief than the Wry functionary's latest novel. My apologies
edited by Alexander von Brennenburg on 2/14/2012
--
You do look weary, my friend. Come, help yourself with some of this tasty spiced wine. It will put a stop to your troubles, I assure you.
An Excerpt from "The Seeker Of Shadows" :
Are you having chronic nightmares ? Do your acquaintances meet an hideous demise shortly after seeing you ? Contact directly Alexander von Brennenburg for an immediate solution, free of charge !*
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T WO Chandler
Posts: 93
2/14/2012
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Alexander von Brennenburg wrote:
We can draw four conjecturse from these pieces of knowledge.
1) The Bazaar is furious that the Second city escaped its grip and found shelter in the Elder Country, where they appear nigh-invulnerable.
2) The Bazaar resent the duchess for finding out its true appetite.
3) All of the above, and perhaps more.
4) None of the above, and the Bazaar's dislike of Egyptians is linked to a completely unknown and different reason. One of which may be that the deal they made with the Second city was somehow unsatisfying.
Well, that turned out less brief than the Wry functionary's latest novel. My apologies
edited by Alexander von Brennenburg on 2/14/2012
Doesn't seem that likely to me. Other cities have had their populations escape and individuals learn the true appetite of the Bazaar without the Masters displaying any sort of unusual antipathy towards them.
I'd say that the more likely reason for the Masters to dislike the Second City is the whole business with Mr. Eaten. There's been a degree of speculation about that previously, in the thread, I believe.
Although that does bring something to mind. Considering that she was there when it happened, it seems possible that the Duchess may actually know the Name. She appears to be an exception to the usual antipathy displayed towards those Seeking the Name, judging by her positive reaction to what happens if you choose to attend her salons and speak of terrible things.
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For secrets are their own reward.
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Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
2/15/2012
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@Alexander von Brennenburg:
You may have become a bit confused there: there is no indication of any link between the Elder Country and the Second City. It's the Third one, rather...
Your speculation about Polythreme being a remnant of the First City, and the "Orient" one of the Fourth City, is very interesting, though. I never looked at it this way but maybe all the places across the Unterzee are remnants of former cities? I guess we'll see about that when we'll finally be able to go to these places...
Felicity Chase wrote:
I've heard from another source that the Latin word for "pig" is Porcus while Orcus was the Roman god of the underworld and punisher of oaths. "Stone pigs" are probably some sort of mistransation, after all...
Interesting! "Orcus" was the God of the Underworld, and also what the underworld itself (=the Neath) was called... at least that would explain that thing about living "in the head of a pagan god" (=living in the Neath =living in the Orcus).
T.W.O. Chandler wrote:
I, personally, intend to observe the Seventh City from as respectable a distance as I can manage, should I still be present at the time - and I do intend to be. Certain evidence that has come to my attention indicates that something unpleasant indeed may occur when the Bazaar claims it's seventh city, and even one so unrepentantly unwise as I has no wish to be there when it occurs.
Someone once mentioned that the Seventh City would be "the one to rise to the Surface" but I don't know where that piece if information might've come from, or if it was pure speculation. Any thoughts on that?
T.W.O. Chandler wrote:
Although that does bring something to mind. Considering that she was there when it happened, it seems possible that the Duchess may actually know the Name.
I'm quite certain she does.
edited by Rupho Schartenhauer on 3/24/2015
--
Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it.
Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely.
Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated.
Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
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