theodor_gylden
Posts: 117
12/20/2011
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Wieland Burandt wrote:
Oh, that tree is really impressive! But of course, they could've had something similar in Xanadu, as well?
I guess I just like that idea of Xanadu being the Fourth City... Kubla Khan is one of my favourite poems 
And that Kubla Khan could indeed be called a Khan of Dreams!
Wieland Burandt wrote:
But are you sure about that date? Babylon "fell" quite a few times (click here). Is there any evidence that the fall in question is the Persian invasion of 539 BC?
It need not be. My only thought was that the Fall referred to the Biblical Fall of Babylon prophesied by Isaiah ('behold, I will stir up the Medes against them'), but even that may be a source of some contention, and I am no religious scholar to settle it.
Nevertheless, as the conversation turns Biblical, it may be worth offering a passage of particular interest to those of us in the shadow of the Bazaar.
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
And cinnamon, and spice, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
I must credit Ms Scarlet with this discovery. The passage mentions the trades of Mr Stones, Mr Veils, Mr Iron, Mr Spices, Mr Wines, and that most detestable of trades, the Soul Trade, in the context of Fallen Babylon. I do not know whether this will contribute at all to the identification of more literally fallen cities, but it is -- as I said -- of interest.
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Storylet: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/11160.html
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Patrick Reding
Posts: 440
12/21/2011
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The passage also mentions sellers of vessels. Mr. Cups, perhaps?
Now this is getting interesting.
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http://echobazaar.failbettergames.com/Profile/Yana
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Patrick Reding
Posts: 440
12/21/2011
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That said, I strongly doubt the Masters are capable of fornication of any kind. At least as far as a human might consider such. [SPOILERS]The "children" of Mr. Hearts in the Labyrinth of Tigers' fourth coil suggest the Masters can reproduce in a sense, but the partner would not survive the process.[/SPOILER]
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http://echobazaar.failbettergames.com/Profile/Yana
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Namrael Vivian
Posts: 3
12/21/2011
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_Cedar#History.2C_symbolism_and_uses
This might prove useful.
And a random thought - if the Second City was almost without doubt located in Egipt, can the Duchess be in any way connected with the Egyptian deity Bast, the godess of cats?
edited by Namrael Vivian on 12/22/2011
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notemily
Posts: 3
12/23/2011
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I like the theory about the Masters being mentioned in that Biblical passage. But remember this?
How many names do the Masters have?
It's hard to be certain, but some have traded under more than one name. They say Mr Apples was Mr Barley once. Certainly Mr Iron used to trade as Mr Bronze. And Mr Stones was also trading as Mr Marble quite recently. Until that trouble with the tomb-colonies.
Marble is mentioned in the passage, and "wheat" is mentioned which could be a connection to barley. Bronze, however, is not.
edited by notemily on 12/23/2011
edited by notemily on 12/23/2011
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The Incorrigible Raconteur
Posts: 84
12/26/2011
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I always assumed the Second City to be Alexandria, with no real evidence one way or the other but for a general gut feeling. In that same vein, I also believed that the Duchess was -however obliquely- Cleopatra, what with the reference to the serpent's bite - I know it's all a bit of a mash, but I'm trying my hardest not to 'overthink' it!
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Twitter: @KoreanSuperfrog
The Incorrigible Raconteur: Seeker of the Garden, bon vivant and Player of the Game. Older than he looks, and younger than he claims.
Available for anything and everything your Neathy hearts require! Even that. Especially that.
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streetfelineblue
Posts: 1459
12/27/2011
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The Incorrigible Raconteur wrote:
I always assumed the Second City to be Alexandria, with no real evidence one way or the other but for a general gut feeling. In that same vein, I also believed that the Duchess was -however obliquely- Cleopatra, what with the reference to the serpent's bite - I know it's all a bit of a mash, but I'm trying my hardest not to 'overthink' it!
The main problem with that would be that Cleopatra is after all a "recent" historical figure - she was the last ruler of Egypt, and lived a few decades before Christ was born. The seprent isn't necessarily referring to Cleopatra though - the uraeus (οὐραῖος) was a constant symbol of Egyptian monarchy, usually reproduced on pharaoh's crowns and headgear.
--
Twitter: @streetfelineblu
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Link to Ocelot's Enigma Ambition hint page; PM for clarification. No direct solutions provided.
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Rhysdux
Posts: 19
12/27/2011
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I believe that the First City was Byblos. It has risen and fallen a couple of dozen times (so the fact that it has been rebuilt is not an obstacle); it's located in Lebanon, which is noted for its cedars; and it was known by such soubriquets as "the crossroads of the world" and "the crossroads of civilization." It's also at least seven thousand years old.
(And no, Byblos isn't Babylon.)
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
12/27/2011
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Points for Cleopatra as the Duchess, and Ptolemaic Alexandria as the Second City: She was the centre of more than one of the great love stories of history, which were directly tied to her civilisation's fall to foreign invasion. That fall took place ~500 years after Jerusalem's fall to Babylon and Babylon's subsequent fall to Persia (if we consider these relevant.) It also took place ~1000 years before the collapse of the Mayan empire, if we consider Hopelchén or another Mayan city a candidate for the Third City.
Points against: Cleopatra's life as it is recorded does not seem to fit the recollections of the Second City. Mention is made of the Duchess's sisters and the Pharaoh's daughters in these recollections. Cleopatra had only one daughter. She did have a number of sisters, though - in real life, at least - few if any survived at the time of Alexandria's fall. This theory also relies on the gaps between the cities being 500 years - 1000 years - 500 - 500 - 500. Perhaps, if the Second City was such a disaster for the Masters, it somehow prevented or dissuaded them from taking another at the usual iteration? Or perhaps I am the wrong dog in the wrong tree, barking incorrectly!
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 12/27/2011
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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notemily
Posts: 3
12/27/2011
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If the theory about the cities falling in exchange for a loved one's life is correct, though, Cleopatra could have had more than one daughter after her city fell.
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
12/27/2011
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Ah, true - V & A don't seem to have had any trouble having offspring to, say, populate a labyrinth. Perhaps the Duchess did not take that precaution?
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Guest
1/2/2012
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I'm still at the beginning of the exploration of the mysteries of the Fallen cities, but I noticed a clue on the snippet about the Correspondence, that says:
"They say it's the letter the Pope wrote, the one without which Rome would have been the Fourth City."
How could this be related to the Mongols? The connection is not so straightforward... but there is indeed a letter from a Pope to the Mongols: "In 1245, Innocent IV issued bulls and sent an envoy in the person of Giovanni da Pian del Carpine (accompanied by Benedict the Pole) to the "Emperor of the Tartars". The message asked the Mongol ruler to become a Christian and stop his aggression against Europe. The Khan Güyük replied in 1246 in a letter written in Persian that still rests in the Vatican Library, demanding the submission of the Pope and the other rulers of Europe." (Wiki)
How this letter avoided Rome the destiny of becoming a Fallen city escapes me, though...
P.S.: regarding the first city, the ciders are a clear reference to Lebanon - the tree is still today Lebanon's symbol to the point that it appears in its flag - , so I favour the interpretation of the first city as Byblos, or another Phoenician city.
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Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
1/4/2012
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Some thoughts on the Third City and the Elder Country
I recently noticed something odd in the new inventory on the Me page: while Relics of the Second and Fourth Cities are duly filed under "Goods", as on the Bazaar page, Relics of the Third City appear under "Elder", together with Mysteries of the Elder Continent. As the inventory is very well organized, I am in no doubt that this is intentional. Now, I find this very interesting. What has the Third City got to do with the Elder Continent? Or, perhaps one should start by asking "What do we know about the Elder Continent?"
Well, for one thing we can reasonably assume (from various hints that I won't quote here) that this is the country whence the mysterious gentleman known as "Feducci" comes. A man who can be killed in the most permanent ways (cut to pieces, etc.) and return a few days later, jolly and healthy.
From Zailors' tales the following could be gleaned: London has a seldom-discussed colony somewhere across the Unterzee on the Carnelian Coast. The Elder Country is lush, dark and mysterious. It contains the Presbyterate, where men live forever.
The abominable Snuffer known as the Big Rat shared these interesting pieces of information: "Men born in the Elder Country wear their umbilical cords uncut, and they are unable to die, that close to the…" he breaks off. "Care for some cherries?" Dark-Dewed Cherries, by the way, known for their revitalizing effect. Under liquid influence, the Big Rat then provided further hints: Snuffers are more numerous there, but it has its human inhabitants as well. He mutters darkly about Feducci, the 'Presbyter's dog'. He speaks of the Face-Tailor of Old London Town, and now his muttering is not only dark but poisonous. The rest of the evening is lost in a tirade against the faithlessness of humans.
Also, there's this odd Basalt Gymnasium that a member of Feducci's Black Ribbon Society left behind. It is remarked, "There must be something powerful in the stones of the Elder Country." And there's a remark by the Querulous Theologian: "Using the Elder Country as a metaphor for Purgatory was most apt."
While all this certainly raises more questions than it can answer, one can with reasonable certainty say that inhabitants of the Elder Country (or at least, from the part of the Elder Country known as the Presbyterate) know something about immortality.
Could the Presbyterate be a sort of "continuation" of the Third City? Because the inhabitants of that city learned the secret of eternal youth? And why is this way not open to Snuffers (who die easily, and do not return)?
The name Presbyterate itself is hugely interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John.
(Speaking of names: The Dilmun Club, His Amused Lordship's secret society sponsoring expeditions across the Unterzee, has a very interesting name, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun#Dilmun_and_mythology. Dilmun might even be a contender for First City.)
Now, returning to our original question: What has the Third City got to do with the Elder Continent? Well, I don't know. But it is a most intriguing piece of the puzzle, is it not?
edited by Rupho Schartenhauer on 3/24/2015
--
Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it.
Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely.
Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated.
Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
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Zack Oak
Posts: 205
1/4/2012
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The first city, to me, seems like it was probably Lebanese. The city of Byblos has been called the crossroads of the world. As for the third city, Hopelchen is translated as "place of five wells." And the Third City was known for its five wells and nicer weather. As for how the Third City relates to the Elder Continent, this is something that still seems up in the air. But I doubt we'll be in the dark forever.
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Jack Blackstone
Posts: 124
1/21/2012
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When interviewed the Manager of the Royal Bethlehem and failed it said: Oh, this fellow's just having you on. He's looking after a number of guests in love with their own knees and noses? He used to be a king, ruling from a temple made of eyes? He sings the roof-lights to sleep each morning? Stuff and nonsense. Unusable. Spike it.
Perhaps he WAS the ruler of the First city?
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http://echobazaar.failbettergames.com/Profile/Jack~Blackstone
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KatarinaNavane
Posts: 462
1/23/2012
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Might Iram be the first city? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iram_of_the_Pillars
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Storynexus sn Katarina Navane.
My art page (much of which is dark, Victorian, and/or full of tentacles): http://www.facebook.com/demonkittydesigns
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Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
1/23/2012
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KatarinaNavane wrote:
Might Iram be the first city? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iram_of_the_Pillars
Not bad, not bad at all... some things there would fit in quite well.
--
Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it.
Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely.
Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated.
Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
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whiteadder
Posts: 14
1/23/2012
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Just some data points missed so far.
1. The Capering Relicker says this when you get a fortunate result for "Recertify a double-armful of scraps": "I saw the Fall. I raised my jar as the eye temple fell. And they've looked for me ever since. Want me to brew more. They'd flip their cloaks if they knew I was here, under their snouts."
2. When you get a fortunate result while converting Inklings of Identity you get this snippet of conversation. "…it's something about the chap that first brewed Hesperidean Cider. It claims here that he's still in the city. Well, that would make him older than… well, anyone, really.
3. Finally, when you get a fortunate result while converting Incendiary Gossip you get this. "…They say her father was mad, you know. Tore down all the old Gods and raised himself up. Still, she's done splendidly well for herself. I've heard someone saw her true face, though. Perhaps she favours them still.
I would like to point out that the majority of evidence that The Manager is from the first city largely comes from unreliable sources, namely himself, a drunk, and a overheard conversation. Though it would not be surprising that someone who's lived for several thousand years would be somewhat unhinged.
I seem to recall some mention of a pharaoh who shook up the Egyptian religious system... but the class this was mentioned in was some time ago, so I'll leave that to you fine gentlemen. (I believe that the third passage refers to the Duchess.)
Oh and Jack, did you get that failure result yourself or from the wikidot echobazaar wiki? I ask because I put that particular failure result up there, and would find it extremely encouraging if someone is actually reading some of the failure results I post.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/whiteadder
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Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
1/23/2012
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Thanks for your intriguing post, whiteadder! Very interesting indeed!
whiteadder wrote:
I seem to recall some mention of a pharaoh who shook up the Egyptian religious system... but the class this was mentioned in was some time ago, so I'll leave that to you fine gentlemen.
That Pharaoh was Akhenaten. He had six daughters, and he built the city of Amarna...
Well, that shakes things up a bit: Akhenaten's and Amarna's fall occurred ca. 1335 BC. If Amarna really was the Second City, then the First was considerably older than we thought.
Of Akhenaten's six daughters Ankhesenamun was the most notable: she became the wife of another great pharaoh, Tutankhamun.
Oh, and I really hadn't thought the Capering Relicker to be such an interesting fellow. I wonder if his "colleagues" have similar histories of their own?
EDIT: Hang on, this is big!
whiteadder wrote:
The Capering Relicker says this when you get a fortunate result for "Recertify a double-armful of scraps": "I saw the Fall. I raised my jar as the eye temple fell. And they've looked for me ever since. Want me to brew more. They'd flip their cloaks if they knew I was here, under their snouts."
The online Encyclopaedia Britannica redirects to this entry when asked for "eye temple":
"Tall Birāk, also spelled Tell Brak, ancient site located in the fertile Nahr al-Khābūr basin in Al-Ḥasakah governorate, Syria; it was inhabited from c. 3200 to c. 2200 bc. One of the most interesting discoveries at Birāk was the Eye Temple (c. 3000), so named because of the thousands of small stone “eye idols” found there. These curious objects have almost square bodies and thin heads carved with two to six large eyes. The temple itself is important for its use of typically southern Mesopotamian decorative motifs."
(http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/66347/Tall-Birak)
Wikipedia writes:
"Third millennium BCE cuneiform texts from the city of Ebla and from Brak itself identify Nagar (Brak's ancient name) as the major point of contact between the cities of the northern Levant, eastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia."
That sounds a very likely place for a crossroads shaded by cedars... (here's the Wikipedia article on Tell Brak)
Also: "Look: an eye. - The city around the Bazaar is called the Fifth City because, they say, it's not the first the Bazaar chose as a home. You can still turn up bricks from the older cities, now and then. Look: here's one marked with an eye."
(You may have noticed, too, that the Capering Relicker promises "something secret" for 3200 Certified Scraps. That must be... a bottle of Hesperidean Cider!)
EDIT 2: The only thing not fitting in here is the saying "even the First City was young when Babylon fell". But it's only a saying, after all. A very old saying. People tend to confuse these things a bit. Babylon was founded around 2240 BC, so when you say "even Babylon was young when the First City fell", it makes perfect sense.
edited by Rupho Schartenhauer on 3/24/2015
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Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it.
Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely.
Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated.
Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
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streetfelineblue
Posts: 1459
1/24/2012
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It does seem relevant! Quite a discovery, Wieland.
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Twitter: @streetfelineblu
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Link to Ocelot's Enigma Ambition hint page; PM for clarification. No direct solutions provided.
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