Mr Sables
Posts: 597
5/27/2016
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
Mordaine Barimen wrote:
I ratted him out at every opportunity while still picking the options labeled as generating more trust from him as I went. At the end, I was allowed to hand him over to the devils with one minute to spare on the timer. Sorry that you didn't get the ending that you'd hoped for.
Wait, how is it that you both did the exact same things and yet you got two different endings? Or did I just misunderstand something?
No idea . . .
I told the devils first chance I got: "dude's trying to blow you up". I then spent the whole time gaining the guy's trust, expecting - with good reason - I was acting as a double-agent or just humouring the bloke, and never once broke his trust . . . got to the end, was told I couldn't turn him over to the devils (despite all logic and reason). I could only betray him or help him. I betrayed him; don't remember getting any decent prizes from it (could be wrong, though) and no satisfying conclusion. Told to head to the Docks card (expecting an epilogue), but people are telling me it's just a 'new option', but one that's a bit . . . well . . . not bad, but not great. It doesn't give me anything I can use, put it that way.
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Mordaine Barimen
Posts: 670
5/27/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
I told the devils first chance I got: "dude's trying to blow you up". I then spent the whole time gaining the guy's trust, expecting - with good reason - I was acting as a double-agent or just humouring the bloke, and never once broke his trust . . . got to the end, was told I couldn't turn him over to the devils (despite all logic and reason). I could only betray him or help him. I betrayed him; don't remember getting any decent prizes from it (could be wrong, though) and no satisfying conclusion. Told to head to the Docks card (expecting an epilogue), but people are telling me it's just a 'new option', but one that's a bit . . . well . . . not bad, but not great. It doesn't give me anything I can use, put it that way.
Interesting. My ending said nothing of the Docks faction card, only Hell's. Did you perhaps take the first option on one or both toasts? I didn't. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the difference is.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
5/27/2016
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I would assume the difference is whether you're sincere when drinking with him, yes. I got a Searing Enigma from bombing so I'd assume you got something similarly valuable. Practically every story has had a 62.5 echo item as the final reward.
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Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
5/27/2016
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Optimatum wrote:
I would assume the difference is whether you're sincere when drinking with him, yes. I got a Searing Enigma from bombing so I'd assume you got something similarly valuable. Practically every story has had a 62.5 echo item as the final reward.
I got a Brass Skull for siding with Hell.
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Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
5/27/2016
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Mordaine Barimen wrote:
Interesting. My ending said nothing of the Docks faction card, only Hell's. Did you perhaps take the first option on one or both toasts? I didn't. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the difference is.
Yeah, I took the first option on both (to sincerely toast).
I'm not sure why that would end me up with the Docks, when they Docks seemingly had nothing to do with this story, but . . . hey-ho.
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genesis
Posts: 924
5/27/2016
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Robin, a lot of the issues you raise are explicitly or implicitly addressed in the story itself.
[spoiler] Trust is used to determine how much the protester will tell you. This is clear during the first round of drinking when all the things you may want to ask require higher levels of trust and the game explicitly tells you that you'll be back later to ask more. At no point is there any indication whatsoever that Trust is used for anything else. I think part of the reason why it may not be clear is that the game is relying on your familiarity with the engine to know how qualities work and to extract meta information from quality unlocks. This trick has been used by many authors including Alexis and (if I am not misremembering) Emily.
The reason you are not able to tip the devils off is because you told the game you are sincere in your support for the protester. The game gives you two opportunities to flag that you have ulterior motives. If you don't indicate this at the second opportunity then you are telling the game that you do not intend to betray him. The game *explicitly* flags the option that you should pick if you want to prevent the bombing later.It literally says: "Perhaps you also intend to stop him."
The *lore* reason why the devils do not go through on your tip off by themselves is also made explicit and explained.
When you make your final choice (from those that are available to you) you get your actual reward worth 62.5 echoes. Again the game is *explicit* that this is the end. You should not be expecting anything substantively material after this point.
You do get an epilogue of sorts (in your case, the Docks card) to explain what the consequences of your actions are. Almost all ES have such epilogues and as far as I can recall none have substantive material rewards. This is made all the more clear in the game instructions when you are given your final reward and in the quality descriptions of this final new quality.
[/spoiler]
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genesis
Posts: 924
5/27/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
Yeah, I took the first option on both (to sincerely toast).
See my comment above. You have literally told the game that you do not want to go through with any backstabbing. The game wasn't asking you whether you want to *pretend* to be sincere. The game was asking you whether you actually were sincere.
I'm not sure why that would end me up with the Docks, when they Docks seemingly had nothing to do with this story, but . . . hey-ho.
The Docks is just a convenient and thematic place to place a branch. This approach has been used in *many* stories.
[spoiler]
The ramifications of your actions are that even though the protester failed in his primary goal, his broader objective is advancing. It stands to reason that the people this is targeted at are the people associated with the docks. Not necessarily sailors and not the revolutionaries who have a very different object of their ire, but ordinary working people you can find round the docks. The card is being used as a proxy for "working class" here, I think.
[/spoiler]
edited by genesis on 5/27/2016
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Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152
5/27/2016
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ochrasy wrote:
well, I have to say one thing I didn't like:
[spoiler]An Account of the Souls Aboard Hell's Triremes[/spoiler]
is a quality and not an item. unless it will be used again (it has a number following it), I hope it gets changed to an item soon.
*coughs apologetically* Look again.
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Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
5/27/2016
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I'm not sure this forum has a multi-quote system, so forgive me for answering two people at once . . .
I can't remember the exact wording, so I can't comment too precisely on that, but the options were basically: "toast sincerely" and "make enough noise people notice the toast". The latter seemed to imply a loss of his trust, as well as potential obstacles, while the former seemed to make more sense to me, as you would want to gain someone's trust in order to learn more (and stop their plan). You can't really stop someone, if they don't trust you and you have no idea what they're up to and they bugger off on their own without you.
I also think it directly contradicts the earlier choice; if the constables or devils know, it shouldn't matter how much the bloke trusts you (or how much you may have changed your mind, which - if anything - would show you fickle and potentially able to change it back), because these guys ought to know and ought to be able to stop you/him . . . not to mention, they already know and you already showed allegiance to them, so you ought to have the choice to turn to them accordingly. Well, just the devils, I'll admit, but it'd be cool if the constables were an option, too, at the end.
You say there's a lore reason why the devils don't get involved? I must have missed that. Can you tell me why? I find it extremely odd that I can tell them everything, but that they just ignore it (especially after - for some people - there may have already been trouble in their embassy, leaving it in disarray from another story, which should put them on high alert).
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Passionario
Posts: 777
5/27/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
You say there's a lore reason why the devils don't get involved? I must have missed that. Can you tell me why?
From what I understand, it's
[spoiler]insurance fraud writ large. If the Embassy gets bombed on Masters' watch, they can extract a lot of concessions in return.
That's why the Constables' branch warns you not to let the plan succeed: the devils "can't be allowed that kind of leverage". [/spoiler]
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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Appolonia
Posts: 248
5/27/2016
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[spoiler]I am beginning to worry there is simply a glitch or bug. I have tried to confirm how to prevent the bombing, talking to folks off-line and am told just pick the stop him option on both toasts. That is exactly what I did. I picked 'perhaps you want to stop him'. Twice! And then, for me, the embassy blew up. Others tell me they did the same thing and prevented the bombing. It sounds like folks are picking the same option, but getting different endings. Is there some other factor? I think the issue is that if you tip off the Embassy (which you have no reason to think would not lead them to partner with you in stopping it) that it doesn't then matter that you pick 'you want to stop him' every time. Is there a third variable? Does it matter how much trust you build up, for reasons obscure? Again, I thought building trust helped prevent it, but maybe not?[/spoiler]
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Lamia Lawless
Posts: 604
5/27/2016
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I loved it. No surprises there.
I feel like we finally got a big, juicy hint about some aspect of the lore that hasn't been uncovered by any of our lore experts yet.
And it was nice, as a roleplayer, to get plenty of details about what the Embassy looks like, how it functions, and so on.
Whoever got enough of the protester's trust to find out how he got the bomb, I'll be poring through your snippets. Also, anyone who chose to work with the constables.
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The Harmonic Hellfarer
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Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
5/27/2016
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Appolonia wrote:
[spoiler]I am beginning to worry there is simply a glitch or bug. I have tried to confirm how to prevent the bombing, talking to folks off-line and am told just pick the stop him option on both toasts. That is exactly what I did. I picked 'perhaps you want to stop him'. Twice! And then, for me, the embassy blew up. Others tell me they did the same thing and prevented the bombing. It sounds like folks are picking the same option, but getting different endings. Is there some other factor? I think the issue is that if you tip off the Embassy (which you have no reason to think would not lead them to partner with you in stopping it) that it doesn't then matter that you pick 'you want to stop him' every time. Is there a third variable? Does it matter how much trust you build up, for reasons obscure? Again, I thought building trust helped prevent it, but maybe not?[/spoiler]
If you tell the Embassy and betray the bomber, they bomb still blows up, but in a way that gives Devils a diplomatic advantage.
--
Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
5/27/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
I'm not sure this forum has a multi-quote system, so forgive me for answering two people at once . . .
I can't remember the exact wording, so I can't comment too precisely on that, but the options were basically: "toast sincerely" and "make enough noise people notice the toast". The latter seemed to imply a loss of his trust, as well as potential obstacles, while the former seemed to make more sense to me, as you would want to gain someone's trust in order to learn more (and stop their plan). You can't really stop someone, if they don't trust you and you have no idea what they're up to and they bugger off on their own without you.
I also think it directly contradicts the earlier choice; if the constables or devils know, it shouldn't matter how much the bloke trusts you (or how much you may have changed your mind, which - if anything - would show you fickle and potentially able to change it back), because these guys ought to know and ought to be able to stop you/him . . . not to mention, they already know and you already showed allegiance to them, so you ought to have the choice to turn to them accordingly. Well, just the devils, I'll admit, but it'd be cool if the constables were an option, too, at the end.
You say there's a lore reason why the devils don't get involved? I must have missed that. Can you tell me why? I find it extremely odd that I can tell them everything, but that they just ignore it (especially after - for some people - there may have already been trouble in their embassy, leaving it in disarray from another story, which should put them on high alert).
I understood the toast options to be "toast sincerely" and "toast ambiguously". For example in the second toast the second option was toasting to subterfuge, which the protestor would clearly interpret in his favor but for the player could be interpreted in any way chosen. The second toast was also in his own house, so getting people's attention wouldn't really be relevant. I'm pretty sure it's also completely possible to side with the Constables overall and completely prevent the bombing given the right sequence of choices. (Is it possible to side with Hell initially then betray him to stop the bomb?)
I think part of the problem is the ease of going along with the plan vs the difficulty of stopping it. I wanted to do the bombing so I enjoyed the story; it fit what I intended. You wanted to stop him, but didn't realize the intended sequence of events to prevent it; therefore the story didn't go along with your goal on a meta level. I guess my suggestion here would be to add game notes to the toasts and the initial choice that the decision would have consequences, though a way to betray to a different faction after the plan's details were known would be ideal.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Appolonia
Posts: 248
5/27/2016
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Had there been 3 toast options, labeled "toast sincerely and look forward to setting the bomb off"; "toast him knowing you intend to betray him even as you let the bomb explode"; "toast him hiding the fact that you intend to prevent the bombing", it would prevent the issues flagged.
Can anyone see a reason that level of clarity about your own intentions would not improve the experience?
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ochrasy
Posts: 169
5/27/2016
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babelfishwars wrote:
ochrasy wrote:
well, I have to say one thing I didn't like:
[spoiler]An Account of the Souls Aboard Hell's Triremes[/spoiler]
is a quality and not an item. unless it will be used again (it has a number following it), I hope it gets changed to an item soon.
*coughs apologetically* Look again.
finally! I can now put it on my mantelpiece.
--
Ochrasy. Monster-Hunter. Dangerous and Watchful, favors the Constables.
Robitaille. Persuasive and Shadowy, fond of the Devils.
Herr Horst. Seeker of Revenge.
Open to all social actions on all accounts. Preferably, send any MW-providing actions to Ochrasy.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
5/27/2016
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Appolonia wrote:
Had there been 3 toast options, labeled "toast sincerely and look forward to setting the bomb off" "toast him knowing you intend to betray him even as you let the bomb explode" "toast him hiding the fact that you intend to prevent the bombing", it would prevent the issues flagged.
Can anyone see a reason that level of clarity about your own intentions would not improve the experience?
Having three separate options like that seems both more confusing and slightly spoilers for what might come, but mostly just makes changing your mind harder. Currently the betrayal option is just that you might betray him, but it isn't written to decide your choice then and there - it just leaves your options open differently.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Sir Joseph Marlen
Posts: 575
5/27/2016
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Wait, so is bombing the Embassy really a loss or a gain for the devils? If that's the case, then my only complaint for this otherwise enjoyable ES would be that they need to make that more clear for those wishing to stay loyal to the Protester. From a narrative perspective, it sounds like the damage alone from planning out the bombing was a damage to Hell, or at the very least a sore thorn in their side. That added with the fact that you can bomb important sections of the Embassy crucial to Hell, wouldn't that cost be worth it in the end? Or at the very least, if not, shouldn't that be somehow made known?
edited by Sir Joseph Marlen on 5/27/2016
--
Sir Joseph Marlen - The Romantic Sophist
Alexus Harven - The Defiant Fatalist
Rose Reinhelm - The Respectful Revolutionary
Cappuccino - The Perfidious Spycraft
Available for any and all social actions.
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neongrey
Posts: 29
5/27/2016
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More or less I thought it was all right, but the thing that stuck out at me that I was really very unhappy with was that the only ways (besides immediately running to tell someone, and then you only have the once chance that I saw to do this) to indicate that you intended on double-crossing the Protestor was to literally indicate this to the Protestor.
I don't necessarily love 'what are you actually thinking here' options but that would have felt a lot more preferable to me than 'slyly toast to something that suggests you're not on board here'.
edited by neongrey on 5/27/2016
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
5/27/2016
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neongrey wrote:
I don't necessarily love 'what are you actually thinking here' options but that would have felt a lot more preferable to me than 'slyly toast to something that suggests you're not on board here'.
edited by neongrey on 5/27/2016
I thought that's what it was? I don't remember the exact wording but I interpreted it as toasting to something he'd interpret as fitting the bomb plot but ambiguous enough you aren't really supporting him. For the second one I believe it was subterfuge, which applies to the plot but also attempts to undermine it.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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