 Tommy Wi Posts: 87
6/18/2013
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We need new end-level appropriate storylets/cards/contents that are challenging and rewarding.
( With recent improvements, some of these articles no longer applies (Hooray!), and I marked changed parts with Soft Tiger-orange. )
- Even before recent stat cap increase, lots of options in Fallen London are/were inappropriate and outdated for most players. While several options got better, but the core problems are still out there. And in most case, instead of getting better, they simply became harder for everyone.
- For example, highest level ranges of current “opportunity” cards are intended for those at 100~105 stat range, leading to inappropriate rewards. Most of them are not very useful to most Fallen Londoners in 150~165 stat range, and I’m not even talking about new and better equipment. And some cards have very wierd stat req, like caligula's coffee house.
- In contrast, 'Affair of box' storylet can be done anytime, gives out 164.29 ~ 177 penny per action and its rewards are otherwise uncommon (plaques, candles).
- Speaking of uncommon type of rewards, we need more diverse reward items, too – most options simply hands out vendor trash like pearls and brass, while requirement/demand for other uncommon items are very high. I still shudder when I remember the experience of gathering Scarbs and maniac prayer for PoSI.
- Currently, only reliable source for many essential items are "Unfinished businesses" series of storylet. These are good for fresh PoSI, but for most end-level players, it’s very frustrating. Unless these junks get useful or get conversation options (like Stage 3 conversation), we need more options and diversity on item gain.
- And even if we ignore these issues, most opportunity cards (cheesemonger no more,consideration for services rendered, fourth city rags, etc) are really useless. It would be nice to see such cards getting useful, as several new changes made me squee and improved Gaming experience for me.
- ( Or at least providing option to block certain unwanted cards. It might be - maybe even should be- expensive and time-consuming, but it will provide some content like lodgings. Who wouldn't want a Badass Bouncer for their expensive and fancy house! )
Still, there are several refreshing improvements.
- Affair of box is great example of advanced content for end-gamers, and it is widely considered as best option so far and some updated cards provides even better option nowdays.
- Connection exchange of Flit is another nice example - Before the change, it was waste of connection as even 'Unfinished businesses' can provide similar items without hefty connection drop. After the update, this became valuable option that can provide good amount of basic resource materials, making it best usage for connections (It would have been better if it remained as storylet option, though).
- Another good development are new options to utilize high stat by basing reward was based on shadowy stat, which are not only good for end-gamers but also balanced for beginners.
- Also,several things that I was bothered about got fixed – mainly, inconstancy among value of different items.
I hope that other options will turn out like these. And they did! Now they only have to make it even better!
edited by Tommy Wi on 9/16/2013
-- Bazaar is eternally sorrowful, always weeping in form of the Lacre and the Tear. So Bazaar demands Love Stories from its Masters. It must consume our love to endure endless grief.
Maybe that's why Bazaar ate us. Maybe that's why we are "Delicious Friends".
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* Tommy Wi & Nedemmons™, constantly grumbling and complaining over Bazaarian economy and SCIENCE! Since 2012!
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 Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374
6/19/2013
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The Thief and Model are a good example of both (b) and of the utility of anecdotal feedback chatter. The Banish Forever option was waiting on a particular quality which was attached to a particular content update - but I forgot to add the relevant branches. Those stony-hearted souls who want to stop flirting forever can now do so decisively. Cheers all.
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 Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493
9/24/2013
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Is it an issue? Is there anything to indicate that it was always the devs' intent that we be able to maximise all of our stats equally? They've never promised anything like more Watchful shoes, and with the new difficulty mechanics, one more item doesn't make a great difference one way or another.
Personally, I admit, I do like consistency, and I do wonder about some of the weirder items. Like, what's gloam-foam when it's at hoam? Are we just walking around wearing this strange dusky ointment? How does a Snuffer's Face differ from a Tanned Mask? How come something as exotic as Parabola-linen clothing is available for common sale, and why is a glowing cream-coloured suit more Shadowy than a light-drinking black frock coat? The Lenguals, well, I think they make some sense as they are - sticking five slippery tongues over your fingers probably would aid in loosing valuables - but they are really disgusting.
All that said, A: the devs know what sort of story and game balancing they're aiming towards, and I don't, and B: I'm all for more variety of items so that people can choose their favourites and customise their characters as they like! I like some of the new items very much - the amber tiara, for instance, is very well-designed all round. You know what change I would like to see? A rearrangement of the inventory page to accommodate large numbers of items per slot, to reflect the system that's emerged of large, diverse wardrobes rather than small, optimised ones.
-- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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 Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374
6/19/2013
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Spacemarine9 wrote:
is there any chance on the "throw the Jewel Thief into a volcano" option in the distant future or should I just go pull him out of the Sidestreets so I can banish him forever
(yes)
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 babelfishwars Administrator Posts: 1152
9/24/2013
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Tommy Wi wrote:
Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about - Snuffer's face is Watchful item, not Shadowy item. I shift between metagamer and roleplayer, but this item displease both side. At least Lengual, which should have been persuasive, was very useful. But this? Useless, and it's not like it provides in-game option like Patent Scrutinizer or such.
Also, I think that high-level items make game much more fun. For example, I had jolly fun while seeking for The Ubergoat - It costed two Overgoat, but end result was so lovely and hilarious. It would be better if such end-level gears were acquired through PSOI-like odeal instead of buying with raw cash, but oh well.
I've just declared it not to be useless. I use it. Making it not useless. I use it to raise my watchful stats and for in game character role-play (and it goes over your face, your eyes - of COURSE it affects your vision), so to speak. More the latter. But it adds to my enjoyment in a quantifiable way. Thus, useful.
You are taking (your) opinion as fact. The fact I disagree means that this isn't a *mistake* on the behalf of the developers, but a situation where one person doesn't like an implementation, another does. Opinion. A mistake is where they intend one thing, and due to error, do/cause something unintended.
Perhaps if you argued your suggestions as 'I would prefer' rather than 'you are wrong', you'd be more persuasive.
edited by babelfishwars on 9/24/2013
-- Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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 Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374
6/19/2013
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(i) Basically, what Theus said. Anecdotal feedback chatter is often useful, but we have a bird's-eye view of player behaviour through the database anyway, so this sort of subjective giant information dump - though I appreciate the intention! - is just too much, too specific for us to do much with.
(ii) We *do* have a long list at this end of cards that are eventually due to get overhauled and made more universally interesting, and there's an ongoing economy rework in the background - but the priority will never be to ensure that a player at any given stat level gets totally optimal pence per action, only that there are a reasonable number of decently profitable alternatives.
(iii) if something looks like a painfully obvious solution, then the three most likely reasons we haven't implemented it are
(a) there's a non-obvious reason why we'd prefer not to (b) there are a lot of things ahead of it on the to-do list (including non-FL projects) (c) we haven't thought of it
honestly, it's generally not (c). :-) edited by Alexis on 6/19/2013
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 Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374
6/19/2013
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Sorry, that might have sounded grumpier than I intended. I do appreciate the input from you and Tommy, and it is always worth flagging up especially egregious issues in case they've dropped off the radar - that's what I mean by anecdotal chat. But I don't need any more big lists - I have enough of my own.
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 Tommy Wi Posts: 87
6/19/2013
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Thank you for responding! It's nice to know that this is not "(c)" kind of problem. Also, I really appreciate current developments - not only they are profitable, lots of things finally make sense in-game. I love smalll details that make every item special (like maniac's prayer and appalling secret), I love numerous stories of fallen london, etc etc , so I'm very happy to behold what I view as The second grand overhaul of Echo Bazaar!*
The point is, keep up the "good fight" against outdated contents.
* I really have to say it in huge yellow bold. Stuff like "Second overhaul" just screams hope and change. edited by Tommy Wi on 6/19/2013
-- Bazaar is eternally sorrowful, always weeping in form of the Lacre and the Tear. So Bazaar demands Love Stories from its Masters. It must consume our love to endure endless grief.
Maybe that's why Bazaar ate us. Maybe that's why we are "Delicious Friends".
==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==
* Tommy Wi & Nedemmons™, constantly grumbling and complaining over Bazaarian economy and SCIENCE! Since 2012!
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 Playersideblog Posts: 397
6/19/2013
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Alexis Kennedy wrote:
The Thief and Model are a good example of both (b) and of the utility of anecdotal feedback chatter. The Banish Forever option was waiting on a particular quality which was attached to a particular content update - but I forgot to add the relevant branches. Those stony-hearted souls who want to stop flirting forever can now do so decisively. Cheers all. I intend to send the knave stoutly packing. Because I can.
-- My profile
I am now a Correspondent, and no longer able to accept invitations as an Author. (Or so I believe.)
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 Joy Phillip Posts: 177
6/19/2013
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There are a number of opportunity cards I routinely discard since all my stats are capped at 165+ (with the various item bonuses).
*Cheesemonger no more *Dream of (whatever) *Return to the Palace Cellars *Commotion in the square of lofty words (I have like 200+ of all the second chances that I never use for anything) *Reeducating Lyme *Past Benefactor *Soft Heated Widdow *Any of them with the Green Plant *Honey Sipping Jewel Thief *Many of the ones were you can increase connections
And there's a lot more. Many of them were valuable when I was back grinding around 100, but now...
And yes, some of those can benefit others, such as Commotion and Passing the cat, and if I know somoene needs them I will send them, but most often, I just hit discard. The only ones I routinely use are ones that give me money (in something like 120 pence or more equivelent) or that are useful for the storyline I am on now (like the Lens, Head and Mandrake). But most of the stuff is just not of any use to me anymore, and I can't get rid of them, if I could sell my second chances (which I never use now) I might collect them. But when every challenge is Straightforward at 97% or higher chance of success, they are useless.
-- Profile: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Joy~Phillip
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 Endy Posts: 278
6/19/2013
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I'd really just like to see a scaling rewards system. Not sure it is reasonable to expect after the fact, but would have solved the storylet longevity issue.
Every option roughly equal for grinding purposes. Content and different reward options making the difference between them.
Note: Soft Hearted Widow provides a chance to attack or change your form for K&C Players. A very nice addition and something I hope we see more of.
-- sonantem aeternum ad terram
Through the darker shadows.
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 Tommy Wi Posts: 87
6/19/2013
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Joy Phillip wrote:
There are a number of opportunity cards I routinely discard since all my stats are capped at 165+ (with the various item bonuses).
*Cheesemonger no more *Dream of (whatever) *Return to the Palace Cellars *Commotion in the square of lofty words (I have like 200+ of all the second chances that I never use for anything) *Reeducating Lyme *Past Benefactor
*Any of them with the Green Plant *Honey Sipping Jewel Thief *Many of the ones were you can increase connections
And there's a lot more. Many of them were valuable when I was back grinding around 100, but now...
Hmm. Maybe we should compose list of unwanted card for sake of detail, discussions and other stuff. maybe something like:
* (Name) : ( reason why they are useless* + proof ) ( > ending with possible solutions to make it better + [Personal suggestions]) * Don't list "it's wasting card deck opportunity" as reason. The fact that they are listed here already proves it.
Example: * Rat Melancholy : Both options are outclassed for people who finished Plaster Face story ( 50 x Greyfields 1882/50 x Cryptic Clue = both option pay 100 echo, same with unfinished business ), and there are very real danger of accidentally wasting 10~30 fate. > Solutions:
- 1. Increase reward.
- [ Greyfields are uncommon, so tweaking number will be nice enough ]
- 2. Extend content boundary of watchmaker's daughter storylet, thus giving more options for albino rat's usefulness.
- [ I'm hoping that I can encourage her to create delightful mechanical items - as added benefit, it will provide use for various vendor-trash items like brass slivers or jewels, and prospect of DIY ratwork items or Whirring Contraption is so fascinating. ]
- 3. Make "Sympathetic about Ratly Concerns" quality relevant to something.
- [ requirement for aforementioned crafting and/or provide better option/story/price-reduction for Rattus Faber companions ]
How do you think?
-- Bazaar is eternally sorrowful, always weeping in form of the Lacre and the Tear. So Bazaar demands Love Stories from its Masters. It must consume our love to endure endless grief.
Maybe that's why Bazaar ate us. Maybe that's why we are "Delicious Friends".
==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==
* Tommy Wi & Nedemmons™, constantly grumbling and complaining over Bazaarian economy and SCIENCE! Since 2012!
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 Joy Phillip Posts: 177
6/19/2013
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That's a good idea. We'll have to start tabulating all the opportunity cards that you get at 120 and above to do this right. If we could present it as a codified Wiki or something for Alexis to look at and possibly implement, that'd be fantastic.
Maybe also make it so that at some levels you get what is already there, and as you increase in level, while that is still an option, other storylets open up on the card to continue with other stories.
I do the Albino rat still simply because I hope to go to a funeral with the rats at some point, and I'm hoping the Daughter will come back at some point.
-- Profile: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Joy~Phillip
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 Theus Posts: 311
6/19/2013
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Before people create an anecdotal encyclopedia of "useless cards" we should all realize that FB has actual data saying which cards are routinely discarded at what levels. On top of that, there has already been announcements of many changes still to be made once the platform is in place. While the hearts are in the right place, I wouldn't want people to put hours into something like this without this understanding.
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Hefty~Harrison
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 babelfishwars Administrator Posts: 1152
9/24/2013
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Tommy Wi wrote:
Oops. My bad.If you were offended, I'm sorry. I should study harder on english usage and grammar?.
Not offended. Just suggesting that you'll have more interesting discussions if you consider that there will be other opinions on the game to yours, and thus most of the things you declare 'wrong' might just be 'not to your tastes'.
And you might find an interesting discussion emerging. E.g. How could a snuffer's face be shadowy? You've stuck a big melty face on your face - you'll not be recognised, but you'll be REALLY NOTICEABLE. :-)
-- Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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 xKiv Posts: 846
9/24/2013
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Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
You know what change I would like to see? A rearrangement of the inventory page to accommodate large numbers of items per slot, to reflect the system that's emerged of large, diverse wardrobes rather than small, optimised ones.
And outfits. Clicking the same 6 items every time I want to go from dangerous to persuasive (or back) ... gets old.
-- https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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