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11/29/2018
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I've kind already covered this: it's not in keeping with the tones and themes of the setting.
You've got a world where the height of sexual promiscuity is a kiss on the cheek, women being involved in scholarship is considered highly improper, people get exiled on a regular basis for violating the simplest of social norms- and yet somehow in less than 1 generation homosexuals and the transgender/intersex are unquestioningly accepted?
TL;DR if you wanna make storylines about how stuffy and rigid Victorian life is, you kind of have to have the rest of the setting reflect that.
edited by Isaac Gates on 11/30/2018
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Azothi
Posts: 586
11/29/2018
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This "Farewell to Connected: The Orient" and "The Mysterious and Indistinct Art of Pronouns", as well as tangentially "SLIGHTLY BREAKING: same-sex marriage legal in Fallen London from Alexis Kennedy offers some insight into the way that Fallen London has approached the careful balance between its Victorian setting and its contemporary audience. The trend has essentially been towards (1) increased player choice and (2) greater equality in the setting.
To that extent, I just have a quick correction before I get back on topic:
Isaac Gates wrote:
It's why the "addressed as" quality for the ambiguously gendered is: 'si- er, mad- er, yes', which is pretty good estimation of what a polite reaction in setting would be This used to be accurate about two to three years ago, but it's since been changed. The ambiguously gendered can be addressed by any option available in-game, including "Sir", "Madam", "Lord", "Lady", or any other gendered form of address, while gendered characters can be addressed as "Si- er, mad-er, yes" by refusing to give a form of address.
Anyway, that being said, the trend has essentially been towards (1) increased player choice and (2) greater equality in the setting.
For instance, the absence of women's suffrage was flavor text reflecting true Victorian conditions, but when the Election festival was implemented, it would be poor design to ban characters registered as "female" from participating in the festival, because Fallen London isn't built as a Victorian escapist fantasy. It's a modern 21st-century story borrowing Gothic and Victorian aesthetics, with influences drawn from throughout western history.
The Great Chain of Being? That's a Platonic and Neoplatonic idea. The Bazaar's love story and the Seventh Letter? Shakespeare and the Elizabethan Renaissance. The setting - the Neath, the Unterzee, and the High Wilderness - draws on significant Romantic influences (Coleridge, Shelley, etc.) and early science fiction and horror (Verne, Lovecraft, etc.), hence the Victorian setting, but even then, these Romantic influences exist in opposition to the oppression within Victorian society (alluded to in-game with the conflict between the Bohemians and Society, for instance). My point is that Fallen London is not a period game - it's the illusion of one.
That's what Daylight is - it draws far more from the horror genre than it does from Victorian society, and what symbolism it offers is at most a scathing indictment of the destruction of creativity such a society might offer. You are free to critique the decision to make the Inspiring Imaginator an ambiguously-gendered character, but it seems like such a trifling thing to talk about. The character is explicitly written as androgynous, and the other characters in setting adapt to this. It's not even the first time Failbetter has done this. Isery, the Cat's Chiefest Claw is explicitly "ambigiously gendered". The concept has been previously established in canon.
I'm just not sure how relevant this discussion is to the story. The point of the Inspiring Imaginator is that they're an ambiguous character - for much of the story, their life, motivations, and whereabouts are shrouded in mystery. This is just another facet of that.
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
 Hesperidean.
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Guest
11/29/2018
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I picked up on the fact that the Inspiring Imaginator is basically a non entity- which also didn't do much for me.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
11/29/2018
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Isaac Gates wrote:
I've kind already covered this: it's not in keeping with the tones and themes of the setting.
You've got a world where the height of sexual promiscuity is a kiss on the cheek, women being involved in scholarship is considered highly improper, people get exiled on a regular basis for violating the simplest of social norms- and yet somehow in less than 1 generation homosexuals and the transgender/intersex are unquestioningly accepted?
TL;DR: if you wanna make storylines about how stuffy and rigid Victorian life is, you kind of have to have the rest of the setting reflect that.
Not really. Fallen London is not historical fiction. It does not pretend to be historically accurate. Failbetter may have based their setting on real history, but they are under no obligation to adhere to it when it detracts from the intended experience. Its tones and themes are whatever they decide. They've decided that the presence of bigotry would detract more from player experience than anachronistic tolerance of differences does. This is a story that uses Victorian aesthetic, not a story about Victorian values, so the lack of accuracy is ultimately unimportant.
But yeah, as Azothi says, I'm not sure this discussion is particularly on-topic.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1789
11/29/2018
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We run a creative writing workshop focused on speculative fiction. We use Fallen London as an example on how to be inclusive while maintaining a period atmosphere.
The setting explains perfectly why some norms have evolved and some have remained decidedly Victorian. And the contradictions that remained are much more glaring that the gender fluidity: you are advising a young lady to go into politics and make a difference for women, who supposedly are otherwise advised to stay at home... and then you get the Northbound Parliamentarian and Sinning Jenny as the first Mayor. I doubt this made anyone upset, given that this is obviously an alternate universe and suspension of disbelief is required to make sense of half the things happening there.
Frankly, given how abritrary most our norms are, the thought that they evolved differently in the Neath makes perfect sense; and so does the devs' decision not to exclude players.
edited by Jolanda Swan on 11/29/2018
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Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Guest
11/29/2018
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I never said anything about excluding anyone from anything. I said the level of acceptance of specific things in setting doesn't make a whole lot of sense given how overwhelmingly strict it is about others. And I'll say this one more time: London hasn't even been underground for one whole generation, and people living there live unnaturally long lives. People are resistant enough to change (especially between generations) as it is- that's only gonna get more pronounced when the old guard *literally can't die*.
(Also Jenny becoming mayor is kind of a meaningless achievement if the fact that women are advised to stay at home just vanished into the ether the second she started running. You can't overcome adversity when there isn't any.)
edited by Isaac Gates on 11/29/2018
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Azothi
Posts: 586
11/29/2018
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First, does anyone have an Echo of going to the Precocious Rat's house with the key? I've been unable to access the necessary storylets after defeating the Stalker, and I'm curious to see what flavor text comes with that.
Otherwise, there are a couple of things that might be bugs:
- If you return to the cliffside workshop after leaving the first time but before fighting the Stalker, it retriggers the Dark Conversation, even if you've already dismissed the Grieving Zailor.
- After defeating the Stalker, the Airs quality disappears, preventing further exploration of the island.
- Some travel options cost no actions, while some do. There's no discernable difference between them as far as I can tell.
That being said, the atmosphere of Daylight is absolutely sublime, and I'm disappointed we'll not have the option to return. The Grieving Zailor, Inspiring Imaginator, and Precocious Rat (and family) are all excellent additions to Fallen London's corpus of good characters we'll never see again. Personally, despite the fact that I've probably spent at least a full candle's worth of actions moving from place to place and that I've not yet fully returned to London, this is still one of my favorites so far.
My thoughts on the lore are below the spoiler tag:
[spoiler]Daylight is a strange kind of place because it's not well-defined in space even when considering the Treachery of Maps. The fact that you can reach it with a rowboat implies that it's part of the Southern Archipelago near London, but the imagery and lighting recalls Parabola and the uttermost East. The rowboat reminds of Winking Isle, which would make the most sense altogether - Daylight is already essentially a physical representation of the Inspiring Imaginator's psyche, and the line between reality and dream blurs here.
The Bauble of Ecstatic Repose is a Fingerking - I'm almost certain of it. The serpentine imagery, the parallels to Parabola, the loss of self of the Inspiring Imaginator - it all points to a deal gone wrong with the Fingerkings. The Stalker is more ambiguous - it's likely a nightmare creature of some sort. I'm pretty sure the Stalker is the assistant mentioned by the Inspiring Imaginator. Daylight might be an experiment by the Bauble to try to create a simulacrum of life that it can inhabit in order to manifest in reality.[/spoiler]
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
Hesperidean.
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phryne
Posts: 1351
11/29/2018
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Azothi wrote:
This "Farewell to Connected: The Orient" and "The Mysterious and Indistinct Art of Pronouns", as well as tangentially "SLIGHTLY BREAKING: same-sex marriage legal in Fallen London from Alexis Kennedy offers some insight into the way that Fallen London has approached the careful balance between its Victorian setting and its contemporary audience. THANK YOU for posting those links. I was thinking about these very blog posts as soon as I read Isaac's complaint but was too tired to go look for them. I'll keep them saved for future use 
@Isaac:
One can't help but feel like you're picking fights for the sake of it recently. That's all I'm going to say.
edited by phryne on 11/29/2018
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Accounts: Bag a Legend • Light Fingers • Heart's Desire • Nemesis • no ambition
Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writer ― Favours & Renown Guide
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Guest
11/29/2018
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For the record, those links basically boil down to this:
"We fudged it, that may or may not make the setting anodyne. We did it because people complained."
And I can't speak for what "one" feels, I'm simply voicing my opinions. The fact that anything remotely contentious automatically provokes dozens of defensive replies and countless downvotes in this forum may or may not have anything to do with that anodyne quality mentioned earlier. Just a thought.
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Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1789
11/29/2018
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Another very Victorian thing: keeping things civil. People who enjoy FL tend to also enjoy diversity, cozy discourse and being friendly or at least polite. Now, no-one is forced to enjoy such things too, but going deliberately against them, knowing nobody will enjoy the ensuing discussion, is weird.
As for the Alexis Kennedy posts, he specifically said he used the terms knowing they are problematic, to make a point, and took them out as they made people feel not wanted, which he didn't want. He did not say he wanted them there and was forced to take them out because of the evil PC police going after him.
edited by Jolanda Swan on 11/29/2018
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Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Guest
11/29/2018
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My exact words were: "because people complained"- but by all means, put words in my mouth.
And the politeness shtick is very much what made the "si-er, mad-er, yes" bit so appropriate (and also funny).
edited by Isaac Gates on 11/29/2018
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Azothi
Posts: 586
11/29/2018
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Isaac Gates wrote:
For the record, those links basically boil down to this:
"We fudged it, that may or may not make the setting anodyne. We did it because people complained." Eh, we can agree to disagree on the standard for "complaining" here. To quote the Orient post:
Alexis Kennedy wrote:
To the second, I agree that we have lost some of the flavour of Victorian London. But we've never made a serious virtue of historical realism, and one too many people mailed me to say [I paraphrase] 'look, I like your game, but when I see that word used in that way, it makes me feel like I don't belong here.' In the end, that's the important thing. Remember, Failbetter is a company and we are its market. They sacrifice a piece of Victorian London - a minor part of the aesthetic - to allow some people to take more joy in Fallen London, potentially expanding their market by spreading the word and potentially investing real money into the game. Is this complaining, or is it criticism? It's always seemed like the difference between criticism and complaining is how much you agree with the critique. I mean, what's this?
Isaac Gates wrote:
Y'know, it's more than a little odd to me that in game lore clearly states that women are very much still on the margins of society, and yet homosexuality and the ambiguously gendered are accepted... in the 1890s. I'd argue it's an observation, albeit one tinged with critique. Someone else might see it as a complaint. Someone else might see it as a valid criticism. These classifications are subjective.
Some people care more about Victorian realism. Some people don't. Fallen London can't cater to everyone - it has to define itself as a game, and it's not defined itself as a Victorian escapist fantasy. Its primary market is not the subset of consumers who want to have an authentic Victorian experience.
Isaac Gates wrote:
And I can't speak for what "one" feels, I'm simply voicing my opinions. The fact that anything remotely contentious automatically provokes dozens of defensive replies and countless downvotes in this forum may or may not have anything to do with that anodyne quality mentioned earlier. Just a thought. And I disagree about this as well. You must risk offending people to have free speech and an honest discussion. You're voicing your opinions. That's true enough. I'm voicing my opinions. They happen to be different than yours. I have to risk offending your beliefs in order to have this discussion. If I tried to be anodyne, I would be silent - I can't offend you if we never interact. I suspect it's the same for others in the discussion.
Of course, risking offense is not the same as actively seeking it. Are you offended by people disagreeing with you? I can't say for certain. I can't say you won't be either. We take precautions to minimize the risk of offense because it's difficult to work with offended audiences.
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
Hesperidean.
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Tom Davidson
Posts: 107
11/29/2018
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Out of interest, did anyone actually find a key? That was the one piece of content I missed out on, and I can't help wondering if that contributed to the ending feeling more than a little incomplete.
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http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Black%20Tom
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Azothi
Posts: 586
11/29/2018
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Tom Davidson wrote:
Out of interest, did anyone actually find a key? That was the one piece of content I missed out on, and I can't help wondering if that contributed to the ending feeling more than a little incomplete. I didn't either, and I've been unable to return to the rat village to search more because raising the Hunted quality to 2 after finishing up in the workshop automatically triggers the Stalker fight. My best guess right now is that it's a rare success on searching the houses.
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
Hesperidean.
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Guest
11/29/2018
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The fact that the difference between criticism and complaint is subjective makes arguing said difference a moot point.
And what I was getting at is that if anything even slightly contentious automatically provokes an overwhelmingly negative response, it's probably because the avenue it was expressed in goes out of its way to be inoffensive.
Also shifting focus from that one sticking point (that took over the thread for approximately two pages- see the above point for my suspicion as to why)- this story wasn't great overall.
The character I'm supposed to be rescuing feels like a placeholder with no personality or characteristics of note, and none of the interactions you have with them are even slightly engaging. Their model island is neat, but that's about it. And on top of the fact that I had no reason to care about the character in question... nobody actually offered me any other incentive to go along with all this. There was nothing to gain. So... unless your character is a card carrying do-gooder prepared to cross the zee to save literally anyone it was kind of a waste of time.
(The monster was interesting, and I would've been happy to learn more about it- but literally the only way I was allowed to interact with it was a fight.)
edited by Isaac Gates on 11/29/2018
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Tom Davidson
Posts: 107
11/29/2018
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My character IS a card-carrying do-gooder prepared to cross the zee to save literally anyone, and what he's taking away from this is the satisfaction of having reunited a young rat with its dolly.
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http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Black%20Tom
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Guest
11/30/2018
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Well congratulations, you get the satisfaction of knowing you did a good deed- the ultimate cop out reward. :P
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phryne
Posts: 1351
11/30/2018
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I haven't played the story yet, but the description talks about rats and an island in the Unterzee - is this by any chance about Pigmote or Nuncio? Please tell me it is!
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Accounts: Bag a Legend • Light Fingers • Heart's Desire • Nemesis • no ambition
Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writer ― Favours & Renown Guide
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Tom Davidson
Posts: 107
11/30/2018
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It is not. The island setting is, IMO, the best thing about the story (besides Mr. Sock), so I won't elaborate yet.
edited by Tom Davidson on 11/30/2018
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http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Black%20Tom
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Hattington
Posts: 210
11/30/2018
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Absintheuse wrote:
December's Exceptional Story has arrived, delicious friends!
Join forces with a zailor and young rat to uncover the secrets of an abandoned model village. Journey to an island in the middle of the unterzee to uncover the painful legacy of an inventor's folly and confront the horror that lingers there still.
Daylight is the first story in the Season of Hobbies, and was written by Ash McAllan. This season will give you the opportunity to spend time with Londoners at their leisure. You can begin each from the Season of Hobbies card.
Editing, design and QA: James Chew and Olivia Wood.
Art by Paul Arendt.
EXCEPTIONAL FRIENDSHIP
In addition to a new, substantial, stand-alone story every month, Exceptional Friends enjoy:
- Access to the House of Chimes: an exclusive private members’ club on the Stolen River, packed with content
- An expanded opportunity deck: of ten cards instead of six!
- A second candle: Twice the actions! 40 at once!
Finishing all three stories in the Season of Hobbies will make you eligible for an additional opportunity, to follow.
If you want to keep an Exceptional Story beyond the month it’s for, you must complete the related storylet in the current Season’s card throughout London. This will save it for you to return to another time.
edited by Absintheuse on 11/29/2018
Gonna have to be honest: Not a fan of this one. The island itself was a massive action sink not helped with Dullness having no more interesting consequence than an obligation to go to a punch of parties back in London. What if I DON'T miss my creative facultires, huh?! What if I'm FINE with them drifting off into the Mirror-Marches for some Fingerking to nibble on?
The plot itself-I almost forgot to bring the zailor with me, and I actually don't regret it. Because it might just be me having played too many ESes but I called it from the get-go he wouldn't find what he wanted, and the whole thing just feels pointless on realising it started with a sob story in a bar and no further plan than "go to the island, haul some daft git I miss back, never for one moment stop to think if a relationship should be built on more than artistic talents". It's not as if there was much of a chance to get to know either of them very well so the creator comes off as a bland twit high up his ivory tower even before having his creativity siphoned and the zailor comes off as a crybaby who never got over a cute boy.
At least the rat kept Mr. Sock. That's a plus, I guess.
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The Dawnburnt Vake-Rider: https://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Hattington
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