Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1789
8/30/2017
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Delightful writing as ever, and for some reason I still like the Manager for all his faults. Has anyone else played it yet? I am fretting over a certain choice and I need to gossip with fellow Londoners on that.
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Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Reused NPC
Posts: 259
8/30/2017
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Kukapetal wrote:
Well, I was going to just ignore him and let him suffer with nightmares forever......but maybe I'll check out a peoples' journals to find out if I can be a huge a-hole to him. If so, it might be worth losing my new drink coaster, paperweight, and Pet Moth Who's Going To Hatch Any Day Now I Swear in order to play the storylet :P
EDIT: oh great, more whining about his douchy boyfriend. Does this guy have any other characterization at all? Seriously buddy, you've been in the neath for ages. FIND ANOTHER HOBBY.
Please tell me there's an option to let the snakes swallow him. Preferably headfirst so that it shuts him up faster :P
edited by Kukapetal on 8/30/2017
Well, someone doesn't like the Manager. What'd he ever do to you, take your brass buttons?
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ReusedNPC, a d__ned lunatic.
Edmund Viric, a rather dreamy sort.
"I won't stay long, I shan't stay long! Tell me a secret."
--the Baldomerian
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Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047
8/30/2017
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I like the manager. He's pitiful but in the way that inspires protectiveness rather than raw pity or disdain. I'm unsure of his motives but his insane asylum appears to be helping people and keeping potentially dangerous individuals off the streets. He also doesn't appear to be actively doing anything gruesome to anyone, which seems rare in FL.
He just needs to move on and find a new boyfriend. Maybe I can volunteer~
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Be of good cheer. Our contacts have assured us that your sins are forgiven.
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John Moose
Posts: 276
8/31/2017
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(This ended up a bit long - to clarify, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hating a particular character, and can sympathise with that. I just found this an interesting moral debate and wanted to chime in)
The only way the Manager would have known what he was signing his people up for would have been if the Masters told him all the bad sides of the deal up front - which doesn't sound too likely. He does say he'd do it all over again since he could still not bear to have his loved one die, but that's honestly not a surprising attitude for someone who's spent millenia pining after said love.
Also, in addition to Amalgamate's point about how ceding over his lands to another ruler was just business as usual for royals (and if he considered himself to be a bad ruler, he might have thought he was helping his people by turning them over to the wise bats), selling people was not evil back then. Selling people and slavery were normal parts of life back then, and if you'd asked his subjects whether owning a slave automatically makes someone a monster, only the most mistreated and bitter slave would have answered "yes."
Of course one can say that morals are not subjective and that it being acceptable at the time doesn't mean it wasn't evil, but in that case we'll all be considered bloodthirsty monsters soon enough for knowing what beef tastes like, so who are we to judge anyone. To sum up, his actions weren't particularly evil for someone from his time and culture, and since he doesn't do it anymore, there's no reason to paint the poor old man as a demon because of it. It's fair not to like him for being whiny and obsessed with the past, but that actually makes him the one geriatric from past cities to be described as a normal geriatric, instead of a more awesome but less realistic Power Granny like the Widow and the Duchess.
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Gul al-Ahlaam
Posts: 225
8/31/2017
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A king has a duty to protect his subjects.
Don't you think you've gotten this backwards? He's not a public servant, he's their divinely mandated superior. They serve him.
He can do with them as he pleases. They can rebel if they don't like it, but we have no indication that they did. Perhaps they preferred it down here in the dark? Many people do, after all.
Doing evil for a sympathetic reason is still evil.
Evil is a very childish idea, don't you agree? I would say that the Manager, if anything, is selfish. He cares about the man he loves more than anyone else, and desperately hopes to recapture that happiness, to undo his mistake, or (and this seems to be his preference) undo the consequences of his mistake. I find it charming and romantic, you may find it irresponsible and objectionable, but evil is a foolish way to describe it.
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The Uncanny Hierophant.
The Jewel-Eyed Prince.
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Carns
Posts: 30
8/31/2017
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Kukapetal wrote:
Selling your people to space bats is evil regardless of what said space bats end up doing with them.
Well I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate but, technically, from his perspective, he's just selling his city to some weird tall cloaked people. Not many know about the master's true nature and I don't think they would suddenly strip and reveal themselves. The manager probably thought they just had some effective medicine and, since to him they were likely just some representatives from another city, he wasn't expecting his city to take a trip to hell and his lover to turn to stone.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
8/31/2017
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Are you calling London's beloved and everlasting Empress evil?
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Pnakotic
Posts: 266
8/31/2017
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Tragedy, as a literary device, involves building characters who are larger than life and in most regards estimable (perhaps even superlative) except for some key flaw of temperament or morals that leads them to downfall.
The Neath is a graveyard of tragedies, except that they never really have to die, and instead live out eternity trying to make the best of a bad situation and move forward as best they can. Tragically (again) much of that moving forward involves choosing who else to throw under the proverbial bus in order to have the same done to themselves.
It's a pattern that extends from the Bazaar and her bats to the rulers of fallen cities and even, it would seem, most player characters, who have arrived down in the darkness through some selfishness, some unforgivable impropriety, some service to vice or unhealthy obsession. Even the apparent "monsters" of the neath, from the Cousins to the Fingerkings to the Empress's children to the lurking spectre of Mr. Eaten have some awareness of what they lack, or what seems fundamentally wrong within them, but lack any means to address it that aren't equally monstrous.
Fallen London is a theatre the bizarre, the mad, the broken, and the amoral and most paths are morally grey (and from what we've seen of the judgements, the paths which aren't grey are perhaps even more terrifying!) Moral paragons are few, if any, and our favorites reflect more our own value Judgements and internalized moral hierarchies than any "Truth" of the written world.
If you don't (or do) particularly like a character, that's nice and all, but few characters are written to be purely likeable or unlovable. Other players may see them differently, and for equally valid reasons. Above all, Fallen London is a delightful narrative, a piece of literary artistry performed by some very talented writers whose skill I much admire, creative liberties I will fiercely defend, and most importantly have demonstrated a laudable devotion to never subjecting us to a Mary Sue. Fallen London is a perennial delight thanks to their fine efforts.
edited by Pnakotic on 8/31/2017
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J. Ward Dunn, Glassman
Book of All Hours 9:99: Journey's end in lover's meeting. Progress is ascendancy.
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Amalgamate
Posts: 435
8/31/2017
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Selling territory between nations in treaties is pretty normal though. It's generally not assumed you're selling them into slavery. IRL - sale of Alaska to the USA, Louisiana purchase, Hong Kong/China.
I can absolutely see how switching from "I used to rule this city, now somebody else will" comes across as morally neutral, unless you know the details of what the Bazaar has planned (Lacre-vats...)
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http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/amalgamate
Social invitations of all kinds welcome, especially games of chess and deadly sparring!
Also happy to help with nightmares, send sips of Cider, and plant battle.
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John Moose
Posts: 276
8/31/2017
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I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree - I'm really not comfortable equating weakness to evil.
Also, from a utilitarian standpoint, the survivability of "being born in the first city" went up, not down, from him making the deal. He condemned his people into what was likely a rather long life in the relative freedom of the Neath, where some of them probably founded a new and lasting nation judging from the cuneiform carved on Glory's shell, until most died in the lacre vats - as opposed to dying in their forties anyway.
If I was an ancient mesopotamian and had the scenario set out for me - either live a couple decades on the surface and then go spend an eternity on the Far Shore, or go down into the deeps and who knows how long I'll still be around or what I'll achieve, I'd be saying my goodbyes to the sun without much hesitation.
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Dudebro Pyro
Posts: 757
8/31/2017
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I actually find myself agreeing with Kukapetal here. When I started playing, I loved the Manager. He was this mysterious figure that could only reliably be met while going half-insane from nightmares, and who also runs an asylum that just happens to be canonically confirmed to be the single most luxurious residence in London (supposedly even better than the best the Bazaar, the Palace and the Embassy have to offer - depending on how you interpret the text. Note that while the key to the brass embassy lodgings only says that the luxury is "sinful", the key to the beth lodgings instead explicitly states its luxury is "unparalleled".) And, heck, "The Manager" is a delightfully eccentric title for one of such importance - compared to the more boring titles of "Empress", "Duchess", or even "Widow".
But the more I find out about him, the less he appeals to me. Turns out he isn't some crazy rich, crazy powerful crazy guy who runs an ultra-luxurious asylum because he can, and because he's probably bored after a few (or perhaps a dozen or more - do we know exactly how old the First City is?) thousand years of immortality. No, he's just hopelessly in love, would happily betray his people all over again, knowing exactly what that entails - and still hasn't gotten over it during the last few thousand years.
edited by Dudebro Pyro on 8/31/2017
--
Dudebro Pyro, eccentric scholar
Spare Starveling Kitties always welcome. I collect them.
For that matter, send me your unwanted cat boxes too.
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Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 362
8/31/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
Are you calling London's beloved and everlasting Empress evil?
I am! Didn't you see my opera?
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Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Longshanks cat-burglar; Bohemian author; now, perhaps, something more. Bubbly, expressive, and affectionate. It’s not only still waters that run deep.
Telemachia Lee: Gentle lady by birth, brawling Docker by choice. Good company in the drunk tank.
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menaulon
Posts: 112
8/30/2017
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PSGarak wrote:
John Moose wrote:
I assumed the constant visions of snekky things was a hint as to what the problem was - the little noodle infecting his dreamworld in general.
I agree about what the presence of the snake-ish thing meant in general. I was referring more specifically to the "feline" description.
It is interesting, considering that in FL lore a snakecat is a combination of two things that are supposed to hate each other, a Neathian hippogrif if you will. From Attendants, we know that the Royal Family of the Second City had/has great knowledge of dreams, so it might be that cats and snakes were once closer together, but the cats mannaged to change into something more real? This might be a hint to the Mystery, but it might also be, as PSGarak says, just a sigh of the infection.
Kukapetal wrote:
His characterization is one-note and grating (listening to someone constantly whine about an a-hole ex gets tiresome FAST), he has a HUGE crime against humanity staining up his hands and doesn't give a crap because "waaaaah I miss my boyfriend" and the game expects me to sympathize with him, and his opportunity card is one of the most annoying mechanics in the game.
The Manager feels a bit like a Creator's Pet to me. I'd love to see him put down :P
I think the game has recently added more about the Manager, so he is definitely not just about his old love. [spoiler] For example, he is involved in the Liberation: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Menaulon?fromEchoId=12296558 [/spoiler]
Additionally, I don't think he can really be called a Creator's Pet because in-game characters do make criticisms of him that are treated as valid. His old lover is certainly not very fond of him anymore. Finally, some leniance may be given despite his crime because he was the first to commit it, without an ability to know possible consequences. That said, he is definitely a bit obsessed.
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Menaulon
Open to social actions, but would prefer to be betrayed in the search for Photographer.
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Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
8/30/2017
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Chrisotoph wrote:
It seems he approves of both killing and pacifying the snake, I would say more the second than the first perhaps; these are the options he himself rewards you for. The vial of tears you see in a mirror before in the real world, and has an unmarked red and gold label on it: all this to me suggests that the third solution was either ineffective or unsatisfactory to the manager. But I think his nightmares were calmed in any case, for now.
edited by Chrisotoph on 8/30/2017
I was under the impression that the vial of tears came from the Fingerkings. Leaving valuable items on your bedside is a respected serpentine tradition, red and gold are both colours associated with snakes, and the Manager didn't seem particularly fond of your actions.
I'd also suggest that he is more fond of the first choice than the second: Killing the snake nets you an entire Intriguer's Compendium from the Manager, while the second is only a thank-you note and a suggestion that what you saw is good secrets.
edited by Vavakx Nonexus on 8/30/2017
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Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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dov
Posts: 2580
8/30/2017
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I also like the Manager. Too bad that he interpreted my chosen solution/choice at the end as betraying him (i.e. helping his enemies).
--
 Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
(Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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John Moose
Posts: 276
8/30/2017
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PSGarak wrote:
This piece of text caught my eye. Is it perhaps a hint to a Mystery?
I assumed the constant visions of snekky things was a hint as to what the problem was - the little noodle infecting his dreamworld in general.
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Anchovies
Posts: 421
8/31/2017
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Tangent: I think the Third City's bargain had popular support. In Sunless Sea, the First Curator, who is a very, very old tomb-colonist but not one of the God-Eaters, remarks "we hungered for the flesh of gods", which gives me the impression that the God-Eaters presented the notion of the contract to their people as a thing which would benefit the Third City by empowering its religious and political leaders.
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Perhaps our role on this planet is not to worship God — but to create Him.
—Sir Arthur C Clarke
Lionel Anchovies. Character on indefinite hiatus.
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Amsfield
Posts: 176
8/31/2017
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I'd mainly like to say that I really, really liked this epilogue. A lot of nice surrealist dream beauty going on. Also moths. Moths are always amazing. My favorite thing about this season might be the significance of moths. I too had difficulty with the final choice, between deception and giving. My character isn't normally the type to sacrifice of himself for the benefit of others, but in the end the arrogance of the wording I felt justified losing a few CP of dreams. Happy with the reward too, and that it turned into a minor betrayal was fitting. (Although, come on man, I still saved you're dreams.) Taken with my choice in The Gift, it seem Amsfield likes literally being a part of something great; given that if he ever dies he intends to be a moth I'd say he has a fascination with metamorphosis too. In a game like this, I think the main thing I want is opportunities to further define my character (both by presenting choices that may bring out new facets, and just by reinforcing aspects already established) and this season really delivered.
As to the Manager, I read him, as I do just about everything in the Neath, as pretty morally neutral. If I could try and save a loved one by letting those around me live out there lives in what sounded like a subterranean wonderland where death doesn't last and that they experience love is what is required in exchange, I'd take that deal. On the other hand that isn't what actually happened, like at all, and the masters... well, they aren't exactly people, let alone 'nice people' and certainly not who you should allow to be in charge.
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Amsfield: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Amsfield
A devotee of pleasures intellectual and fleshy. Always fabulously masked.
Honoria Kastern: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Honoria%20Kastern
A hunter, a shooter and a fisher. Also a patriotic busy body. Mildly corrupted.
Maiser: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Maiser
A young firebrand of obviously criminal intent.
Venshik: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Venshik
Not a nice person.
Asmeria: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Asmeria
Quiet, thoughtful and possibly mad. Excellent listener though. Favours grey.
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
8/31/2017
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He was their king. A king has a duty to protect his subjects. Selling them to someone else, ESPECIALLY if you don't know what's going to happen to them, is no different than a father selling his own children to some creepy cloaked man he met on the street in order to save his dying wife. It may be a sympathetic motive, but it is still evil and no one would view a father who did so as a purely tragic figure.
While he was certainly a bad ruler (he states at one point he's never kept a promise to anyone besides Mr. Jerkface, a terrible quality in a ruler), his motive was clearly to save said Jerkface. Claiming another, more noble motive is clearly just justification. Anyway, if you think you're a bad ruler, you're supposed to pull your head out of your posterior and do better, not hand over your subjects to creepy cloaked weirdos and say "Here, you rule them. I'm sure you'll do better." The latter is just dodging responsibility.
Anyway, his suppsedly noble ulterior motive plus the earlier argument that he "didn't know what was going to happen to them" are both rendered moot by his revelation that he'd do it again. He now knows he'd be selling his people to space bats, to be subjected to a tyrannical rule in an underground cavern full of monsters and other malevolent beings, shut away from the surface and the light of the sun, to eventually be processed into goo (as well as condemning his beloved to state of misery).....and he'd do it again. If that doesn't prove this guy is evil, I don't know what does. Yes, it's because he's weak and obsessed, but that doesn't excuse it. Being obsessively in love with someone to the point you'd commit atrocities for them is still evil.
And I'll clarify that I don't think the Widow and Duchess are better characters because they're cool, bad*ss grannies, but because they actually have a character that doesn't revolve entirely around their ex-lovers. I'd feel the same if they were charity workers or librarians or president of their local book clubs :P
Also...
Anne Auclair wrote:
Are you calling London's beloved and everlasting Empress evil?
Yes :P
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Gul al-Ahlaam
Posts: 225
9/3/2017
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Mr. Impossibly Beautiful and the Manager personalities beyond "hot" and "obsessed with said hotness" :P
I think the issue is that most of their character development is subtle, conveyed through turns of phrase and the contrast between their words and actions and the other perspectives you can get on them, since both of them tend to play their innermost feelings fairly close to the chest.It's also that they're developed mostly in obscure or retired content. Heart's Desire, The Calendar Code, last year's Election, the 40 Renown option for Revolutionaries, even Old Seeking have some amazing moments that pry into their personalities and beliefs (hell, Hundred gets a bit of very interesting development in Zubmariner too).
I think it's less that he's underdeveloped and treated as a figure of pity as it is that that's how you see him personally, and confirmation bias colors your reading of the text to that effect. Just a thought.
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 9/3/2017
--
The Uncanny Hierophant.
The Jewel-Eyed Prince.
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Passionario
Posts: 777
9/1/2017
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I can't help but wonder: when the Fifth City is no more, what will its dream representation be like?
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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John Moose
Posts: 276
8/31/2017
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Those are fair points. I still personally wouldn't call him evil, just utterly unfit for rule - however, as he probably never wanted to be king, I can't be too mad at him for doing a bad job at it. Besides, he seems very intent on doing good now. Evil's a very strong word. He's not saying he'd do it again because he'd like to see all the suffering again, or that he doesn't care - he's just admitting that he still could not stand to let his love die if he could do something to stop it. By a "would sacrifice anything to stop their loved one from dying" definition of evil, one would be hard-pressed to find a mother on Earth that is not evil.
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Aniline
Posts: 144
8/31/2017
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Anchovies wrote:
Tangent: I think the Third City's bargain had popular support.
Yes, but it's entirely out of the realm of human ethics so they didn't even need it. If someone offers you godhood and you have good reason to believe them, it is morally right to go through with it no matter what it takes.
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Melantha Prescott, the Suspicious Statistician. "3% failure chances crop up nine times out of ten."
Francesca Ayers-Kernighan, bat-hunter, cat-whisperer
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
8/31/2017
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John Moose wrote:
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree - I'm really not comfortable equating weakness to evil.
I'll clarify that I dont think he's evil because he is weak, but rather because of what that weakness made him do.
Doing evil for a sympathetic reason is still evil.
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Gul al-Ahlaam
Posts: 225
8/30/2017
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This was a wonderful story, and I absolutely loved it! You guys write dreams so very well! ^_^
(Giant Imaginary Spider transport coming soon? Please confirm! LOL)
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The Uncanny Hierophant.
The Jewel-Eyed Prince.
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Reused NPC
Posts: 259
8/30/2017
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I'll list this here as well:
Killing the snake gives an Intriguer's Compendium, feeding it false stories gives a Dreadful Surmise, and giving it your own dreams gives a Vial of Tears of the Bazaar. The Tears are probably the most valuable, but what does it matter?
(I for one chose to feed the snake false stories. Even if the snakes are deceitful b______s, it's hard to bring myself to kill one. Especially when snakes can be so cute!)
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ReusedNPC, a d__ned lunatic.
Edmund Viric, a rather dreamy sort.
"I won't stay long, I shan't stay long! Tell me a secret."
--the Baldomerian
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
8/30/2017
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Only 10 or 15 actions. Not very many at any rate.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Cthonius
Posts: 362
8/30/2017
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It seemed like the snakes infecting recurring elements of each city in memory. Snake on the Silver Tree, snake replacing where a cat would fit, etc
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Cthonius, gone North. Gone.
Oneiropompus, a Scarlet Saint, eager to help make your dreams realities. Accepting all social requests for now.
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
8/30/2017
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Guess I'll leave him sitting there indefinitely then. Thanks for letting me know!
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folklore364
Posts: 136
8/31/2017
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Admittedly i'm entirely neutral on the manager outside of his involvement with the revolutionaries. The fingerkings though, they have to go. Great joy was taken in crushing the wretched existence from that parasite.
That said I do really really think the manager needs to move on. His boyfriend was made into a sentient island, and its been a couple thousand years now.
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A correspondent who hungers for knowledge. May have doomed london to war with Hell.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/folklore364
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
8/31/2017
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Gul al-Ahlaam wrote:
Don't you think you've gotten this backwards? He's not a public servant, he's their divinely mandated superior. They serve him.
He can do with them as he pleases. They can rebel if they don't like it, but we have no indication that they did. Perhaps they preferred it down here in the dark? Many people do, after all.
Doing evil for a sympathetic reason is still evil.
Evil is a very childish idea, don't you agree? I would say that the Manager, if anything, is selfish. He cares about the man he loves more than anyone else, and desperately hopes to recapture that happiness, to undo his mistake, or (and this seems to be his preference) undo the consequences of his mistake. I find it charming and romantic, you may find it irresponsible and objectionable, but evil is a foolish way to describe it.
to clarify, I'm using the term evil to mean "highly immoral" and I don't see what's so childish about having morals or rating certain moral transgressions as worse than others. But given that you think a king's subjects are his personal property to treat however he wants and that the manager's crime against humanity was "charming and romantic," it's clear we will never see eye to eye.
I have to be done with this now, as it's beginning to make me angry. Thank you all for an interesting debate.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
8/31/2017
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Huh, I was expecting an official thread for this story, like other EF stories or bonus seasonal stories . . . I didn't like some bits of it, but I did like the insight into the Manager and insights into his relationship with his lover. I also got a reward I can't appreciate enough! It was exactly what I wanted/needed and lacked. I'm not sure why all this hate on the Manager, when he's one of the few FL residents I find easy to sympathise with, but each to their own, I suppose.
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Anchovies
Posts: 421
8/31/2017
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Heart's Desire spoilers below.
Kukapetal wrote:
Mr. Jerkface I don't know where you get this impression of the King with a Hundred Hearts. They're quite melancholy, but they've spent the last several thousand years as a sapient island.
[spoiler]The bargain with the Masters was entirely the Manager's doing; the traveler who would become Hundred-Hearts may have been entirely at peace with the fact that their time on the earth would eventually end. If you want more details of the King's story, you can find those in my journal (this entry, and the two preceding it).
They may seem a bit of a heartless shut-in, but that's partially because they lost their curiosity when a piece of their heart(s) was stolen by urchins. Once the king is made whole, Polythreme becomes a place of beauty, every timber and nail singing with joy.[/spoiler]
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Perhaps our role on this planet is not to worship God — but to create Him.
—Sir Arthur C Clarke
Lionel Anchovies. Character on indefinite hiatus.
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
8/31/2017
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Oh I don't think the boyfriend is as bad as the manager, nor do I blame him for what the manager did. He just seems like a lousy person. Literally the only characterization he gets (no, being hot isn't characterization :P ) is that he stopped loving the manager for the one thing that wasn't his fault. He doesn't condemn or shut the manager out for committing a horrendous atrocity on his behalf. Instead, he's mad that the Space Bats violated the spirit of the agreement and turned him into an island. And takes it out in the man who was trying desperately to save him because he couldn't get a better deal. Causing his supposed beloved no end of grief by taking his anger out on him and shutting him out. This is all about him and how he feels and the heck with how everyone else is or was affected.
The guy is a jerk, which makes the manager's obsessive pining all the more annoying.
John Moose wrote:
Those are fair points. I still personally wouldn't call him evil, just utterly unfit for rule - however, as he probably never wanted to be king, I can't be too mad at him for doing a bad job at it. Besides, he seems very intent on doing good now. Evil's a very strong word. He's not saying he'd do it again because he'd like to see all the suffering again, or that he doesn't care - he's just admitting that he still could not stand to let his love die if he could do something to stop it. By a &quotwould sacrifice anything to stop their loved one from dying&quot definition of evil, one would be hard-pressed to find a mother on Earth that is not evil.
He is both unfit to rule (which is why I've never understood the people calling for him to be a mayoral candidate because he "has experience ruling a city" ) AND evil. They're not mutually exclusive. And while his motive may have been sympathetic, that doesn't excuse it. The man was too weak to refuse the space bats and accept the fact that his boyfriend was going to succumb to his illness, and so he condemned his people to tyrannical rule by space monsters and then death in the lacre pits. That is evil. And he'd do it again. He is evil.
edited by Kukapetal on 8/31/2017
edited by Kukapetal on 8/31/2017
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Aniline
Posts: 144
8/31/2017
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menaulon wrote:
I think the game has recently added more about the Manager, so he is definitely not just about his old love.
[See OP for spoiler]
Finally, some leniance may be given despite his crime because he was the first to commit it, without an ability to know possible consequences. That said, he is definitely a bit obsessed.
Him being involved in it makes me hate him even more. You don't atone for your crime by assuming a position of power in the resistance against the primary beneficiaries of said crime.
[spoiler]Honestly, the whole Council has to go -- as it is, it's basically a LARP club for bored privileged Londoners.[/spoiler]
The crime wasn't selling the city to specifically evil space bats, the crime was selling the city at all. No one has the right to own and sell people. No one has the right to have "subjects".
The Duchess apparently went to metaphysical war (and lost) -- this I can, respectively, approve of and sympathize with, and her loss was still a net benefit to humanity. In that, she's a hero. Second City people who perished below are wartime casualties.
The Widow gambled to save her people ("her" as in her belonging to the people, not vice versa) and won: The Khanate does better in the Neath than on the Surface. Her being a woman in the Middle Ages, I can't hold her responsible for the initial predicament in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
Vicky is clearly a traitor. She doesn't hold a candle to Veils or the Catties, but every second of her not stepping down is another evil committed. I will support her against greater evils, but in the end she and the Manager have to try out that marvelous evergreen French invention (whoosh-chop!)
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Melantha Prescott, the Suspicious Statistician. "3% failure chances crop up nine times out of ten."
Francesca Ayers-Kernighan, bat-hunter, cat-whisperer
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Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047
8/31/2017
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All the morally good characters in FL usually get put on a boat quickly (like, for example, the Last Constable). The ones that remain are some degree of grey. There are far more atrocious people and things in FL than our Manager, like the Masters.
I feel it a bit short sighted to judge people solely by the consequences of their actions. People have different opportunities, and if we look at their output it's going to be skewed. Someone with a minor personality flaw can cause major damage in the right circumstances, and someone with a major personality flaw may never have the opportunity to anything particularly problematic. The Manager strikes me as one in the former category. He's irresponsible and selfish and doesn't take no for an answer, but he's not sadistic or malicious.
And like others have said, our liking of a character out-of-universe doesn't really have any relation to how we'd like the person if they really existed. There are plenty of incredibly popular villains who do despicable things in all sorts of media and that's fine. There are plenty of heart-of-gold people in media that are despised and that's fine too. Personally I find the Manager adorable.
edited by Kaijyuu on 8/31/2017
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Be of good cheer. Our contacts have assured us that your sins are forgiven.
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Azothi
Posts: 586
9/9/2017
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This is definitely very late to the discussion, but I enjoyed how they managed to tie the disparate and unrelated plot threads for the Manager and the Hundred and find a way to integrate them into the story: the revolutionaries, the Fingerkings, and the Clay Men. It's possible that the Manager has been among revolutionaries (albeit not the Liberation) since the destruction of the First City. The Attendants focused on the royal sisters who fought the Masters and the Bazaar; All Things Must End focused on the revolutionaries of the Third City and the defiance of natural death; and Web of the Motherlings focused on enemies of, if not of the Masters, then the Leopard Clan and the rulers of the Fourth City. The keys to the Manager's dream were affiliated with these stories, all of them around revolutionaries and enemies of the Masters.
Honestly, this was a perfect way to bring the Season of Ruins in line with what's been happening in Fallen London these past months. Among the Mysteries, there are three questions specifically tied to the revolutionaries and three questions specifically tied to Parabola, and the three mayoral candidates focused on these topics as well (the Campaigner's connection to March, Feducci's card giving out revolutionary favors, and the Detective's ties to the Glass and the Fingerkings, as well as the references to the Deranged Medium case, which outlined the connections between the Fingerkings and the Clay Men). I will not be surprised if these ideas return with the Last Constable or the Dilmun Club storylines.
ReusedNPC wrote:
Now that's a good question. London seems a lot more complex than the four cities past (if my current understanding of the Fourth City via the Silver Tree is close enough). That said... if the Sixth City really is Paris, it'll probably be much more recognizable than... whatever the Fourth City was named. I have to imagine that if London was put into dreams it'd feature the same bustling crowds, lit windows, and half-submerged Big Ben... There's a lot more distinct things about it. (Although maybe that's just due to the fact that that's where we are now.) Perhaps the roads will have been twisted into even more of a labyrinth?] I think London only feels more distinctive because our setting is there. The Fourth City was a remarkably interesting place, a subterranean power struggle between warring factions: servants of the Fingerkings, servants of the Sorrow Spiders, whoever the Coppers were, a powerful clan with an extensive spy network, and, of course, the Khans in power. We know there was knowledge of the Correspondence and that Hell remained present. London's only been here for a few decades. The Fourth City had centuries to develop a rich history that archaeologists have only found pieces of.
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
 Hesperidean.
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
9/3/2017
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Actually, I developed that opinion of him due to how he is portrayed, not the other way around. There are plenty of other jerk characters in the game who I enjoy because they are written far better, and plenty of jerk characters I end up pitying because the narration treats them more fairly and I can end up appreciating all aspects of their characterization. All I get from this guy is "Look at the woobie! Feel sorry for the poor woobie! His story is so tragic! He loves his super hot boyfriend SO much and can't be with him! Doesn't that just break your heart??" And that makes me push back because, while that is indeed sad, he's done some really bad stuff too, and the game doesn't care. It feels like emotional manipulation. Like the game is outright telling me "This guy's done horrible things and doesn't care but we want you to like and feel sorry for him because he has a sad backstory."
It's such a blatant double standard compared to how most of the other characters are treated and that's why he comes across as a Creator's Pet to me.
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Reused NPC
Posts: 259
9/3/2017
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Passionario wrote:
I can't help but wonder: when the Fifth City is no more, what will its dream representation be like?
Now that's a good question. London seems a lot more complex than the four cities past (if my current understanding of the Fourth City via the Silver Tree is close enough). That said... if the Sixth City really is Paris, it'll probably be much more recognizable than... whatever the Fourth City was named. I have to imagine that if London was put into dreams it'd feature the same bustling crowds, lit windows, and half-submerged Big Ben... There's a lot more distinct things about it. (Although maybe that's just due to the fact that that's where we are now.) Perhaps the roads will have been twisted into even more of a labyrinth?
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ReusedNPC, a d__ned lunatic.
Edmund Viric, a rather dreamy sort.
"I won't stay long, I shan't stay long! Tell me a secret."
--the Baldomerian
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
8/30/2017
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Kukapetal wrote:
Guess I'll leave him sitting there indefinitely then.
That won't be very nice for the R.B.'s other residents though.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Dudebro Pyro
Posts: 757
8/30/2017
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Here's a slightly different question: how many actions, more or less, does this take?
I want to do it all in one go (provided it can even fit in 40 actions without skipping content), and I'd like to know how long to wait.
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Dudebro Pyro, eccentric scholar
Spare Starveling Kitties always welcome. I collect them.
For that matter, send me your unwanted cat boxes too.
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Dudebro Pyro
Posts: 757
8/30/2017
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Yup, took me 14 actions while going through every possible branch. Thanks!
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Dudebro Pyro, eccentric scholar
Spare Starveling Kitties always welcome. I collect them.
For that matter, send me your unwanted cat boxes too.
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Chrisotoph
Posts: 18
8/30/2017
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So there was apparently already some discussion about this topic over here.
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Yours, Correspondent Chrisotoph
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
8/30/2017
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Kukapetal wrote:
Please tell me there's an option to let the snakes swallow him. Preferably headfirst so that it shuts him up faster :P
Nope, the worst you can do is annoy him slightly.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
8/30/2017
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PSGarak wrote:
This piece of text caught my eye. Is it perhaps a hint to a Mystery?
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/PSGarak?fromEchoId=12373343
If we're collating interesting lore, I can't not mention this little tidbit about snakes and rebirth.
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Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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