Sir Joseph Marlen
Posts: 575
2/29/2016
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What exactly is the issue with Rubbery Murders? I've heard that it is infamous for its poor quality of content, but I don't believe I've heard the specifics on why it is bad. Care to clarify for myself and anyone else curious about the matter?
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Sir Joseph Marlen - The Romantic Sophist
Alexus Harven - The Defiant Fatalist
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
2/29/2016
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
What exactly is the issue with Rubbery Murders? I've heard that it is infamous for its poor quality of content, but I don't believe I've heard the specifics on why it is bad. Care to clarify for myself and anyone else curious about the matter?
See, I didn't actually mind them:
Pros:
- interesting, albeit simplistic, storyline that's mildly entertaining
Cons:
- quite short
- very point-and-click (no use of investigating, flash lays, fascinating, etc.)
- you don't really get to make any real choices until the very end
- I don't remember there being a memorable reward, either?
That being said, I tend to play for story, so I didn't mind this one too much . . . I found it much, much better than Long-Lost Daughter, which actually really peeved me off a lot, to the fact I wish I never played it and actually have a long list of complaints about a lot of it. Rubbery Murders, however, is fine to play if you're low on content, plus the price isn't too bad all things considered . . . it's not the best or the most memorable, but I think you can do a lot worse, too.
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
2/29/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
What exactly is the issue with Rubbery Murders? I've heard that it is infamous for its poor quality of content, but I don't believe I've heard the specifics on why it is bad. Care to clarify for myself and anyone else curious about the matter?
See, I didn't actually mind them:
Pros:
- interesting, albeit simplistic, storyline that's mildly entertaining
Cons:
- quite short
- very point-and-click (no use of investigating, flash lays, fascinating, etc.)
- you don't really get to make any real choices until the very end
- I don't remember there being a memorable reward, either?
That being said, I tend to play for story, so I didn't mind this one too much . . . I found it much, much better than Long-Lost Daughter, which actually really peeved me off a lot, to the fact I wish I never played it and actually have a long list of complaints about a lot of it. Rubbery Murders, however, is fine to play if you're low on content, plus the price isn't too bad all things considered . . . it's not the best or the most memorable, but I think you can do a lot worse, too.
Rubbery Murders is a very old story; I think it was in existence when I started playing Fallen London, and that was over 5 years ago! The Flash Lay software hadn't even been written then. :-)
Sir Joseph, I'm curious what you had against Long-Lost Daughter, which I recently played. While LLD wasn't my favorite Fallen London content, it didn't irritate me the way it seems to have irritated you.
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Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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NiteBrite
Posts: 1019
2/29/2016
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
What exactly is the issue with Rubbery Murders? I've heard that it is infamous for its poor quality of content, but I don't believe I've heard the specifics on why it is bad. Care to clarify for myself and anyone else curious about the matter?
It's been a while since I've done this content, so I may be remembering falsely, but it just felt lacking in content for its price range and compared to other fate stories of similar value. There's no real new lore learned from it, there's no special rewards or anything to justify the price, and the story isn't especially interesting or compelling. The ending seemed a bit pointless too as its a murder mystery but you don't really solve anything so much as pick whatever you want to be true. I mean I will say it's got more content than a 2 fate storyline, but maybe it would be better as a 7-10 fate story based on length and rewards? It just felt disappointingly empty for what it sells as. I can't see what it sells for anymore. It's like a 25-30 fate story right? I dunno, maybe my assessment is just a poor memory. Perhaps someone who has played it more recently can chime in on the subject.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
2/29/2016
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Catherine Raymond wrote:
Sir Joseph, I'm curious what you had against Long-Lost Daughter, which I recently played. While LLD wasn't my favorite Fallen London content, it didn't irritate me the way it seems to have irritated you.
I assume you mean me with this one? XD
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
Actual mechanics:
I remember them being a bit annoying, relying heavily on opportunity cards, I think? I can't remember exactly, but I know it's one that annoyed me to play and felt like a bit of waiting around and back-and-forth. There wasn't really any decent reward, either; unless you make a particular choice that felt ridiculous for anyone to make, in my opinion . . . it's certainly not an option I'd ever make, not even for reward purposes.
The story was also the worst FL story ever written, in my honest opinion. The character was flat and two-dimensional (the daughter), enough so that I built zero emotional connection to her . . . she didn't reveal any personality, any unique aspects, anything that I should care about . . . then the 'reveal' made her outright detestable and villainous, enough that I felt sickened by her. Other 'evil' characters are outright evil; the Vake makes no apologies for eating people, the kids' in the recent EF story were at least sympathetic and complex, and other characters are quite open about their motivations. This daughter was just emotionally manipulative to a sick degree, just 'because'.
That brings me to the final choice, which I felt punished me for having a shred of morality . . . my character isn't entirely moral, as they'll do anything to please the masters and are quite apathetic, to the extent they'll sometimes say 'eh' and do something because it suits them, rather a chaotic neutral type, but they aren't . . . sick or immoral or evil. I got no decent reward, just because I chose what I did, because it was the only option there to play in my opinion.
So yeah . . . to quote a certain 'comic book guy':
"Worst. Story. Ever."
* * *
Below are my thoughts from some past threads (when I played it at the time):
[spoiler]
It doesn't seem to be adding to the lore at all, but also it forced me to 'rewrite' my character and their back-story, which eliminates the role-play and free-choice aspect that the entirety of FL seems to be based upon. Not to mention, the writing isn't the usual standard; I know nothing about said daughter, even after meeting her, everything is vague, a lot is relying on opportunity cards (so I spent fate, including the little extra to flip some cards, but can't even play what I paid for), and generally seems a little . . . clumsy.
I hate saying it, as I know someone put in an incredible amount of time into writing it and making it, so it feels very mean to say. That being said, I don't think there's much of a way of sugar-coating it; some stories I can waffle on for days about how great they are, such as "Flute Street" and "Flint", but this one . . . well . . . it's interesting, I'll give it that.
* * *
'm tempted to raise my master and constable connections, just on the off-chance that I can bribe one of them to let me see her, whereby I can poke her with a large stick and scream: "THIS IS WHY NO ONE LIKES YOU"! Followed by throwing rubbery lumps and rocks at her. Maybe just rocks. A lot of rocks. If I were writing a follow-up to this story . . . the specially-earned item would be the ability to wear her skin as a hat.
In all seriousness; she was a horribly written character, a horrible character, and the option to earn you a special item would be an option only an insane person (or an intense collector) would take . . . NO reason was given why you SHOULD take that option, aside from maybe a mild stroke or severe dementia. I just . . . ugh . . .[/spoiler]
edited by RobinMask on 2/29/2016
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Shadowcthuhlu
Posts: 1557
2/29/2016
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I made the first daughter adopted. Much like the second daughter.
While I'm not the most moral character, I choose to keep her because she did my character think of their long lost daughter. It's like those with nemesis have a hard time letting things go. . .even if would be better for them to do so.
As for Rubbery Murders, I could benefit from a revamp and perhaps even an extension taking some of the new lore into mind.
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thedeadlymoose
Posts: 214
2/29/2016
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Tangent: I didn't feel the same way about the Long-Lost Daughter; maybe it's that I've read a lot of period stories, but it was very easy for me to understand the desperation of a poor but clever con artist. I had no trouble keeping her. In fact, I really liked her, and thought the story undersold her because there wasn't much more content with her. I agree the writing wasn't the best, but it wasn't awful. My main disappointment with it was that I bought it a second time on an alt who was playing Nemesis with a missing daughter, and there was no tie-in whatsoever 
(There is a lore tie-in, just a non-obvious one that doesn't come within the story itself. It comes with the permanent reward on the Old Bones card in the Nadir. It's only a little, but it's there -- and a potentially significant future thematic element.)
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Erika
Posts: 528
2/29/2016
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Long Lost Daughter - 9 storylets, 3 cards, (+2, Old Bones+the Capering Relicker), minimum 13 branches (max 17)
The Rubbery Murders - 15 Storylets (+1, the Capering Relicker), minimum 12 branches (14 max)
Rubbery Murders is notable for being able to replay the story whilst you haven't finished it, which is a nice surprise.
We assume there's no lore in the Rubbery Murders because there's actually at least 16 different endings. You can contact me if you want to know which endings we know nothing about (we're not talking much text at all however).
Long-Lost Daughter, I have ~no idea~ what happens if you turn her over the constables.
Speaking of the Long-Lost Daughter, the ending was binary "turn her over" or "accept her" which is... really bad. Or at least I hate binaries that force choices dismal choices upon the PC.
For comparison the fate Master-Classes in Etiquette, Educating an Elegant Lady and Educating a Young Rubbery are both 5 storylets.(roughly 14 branches each [which have failures! and not including other rubbery fate content branches]).
Do with this information as you will. If FBG feels like this is too information to release, please edit my post accordingly.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
2/29/2016
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I played the Rubbery Murders somewhat recently; there are three "major endings" (see spoilers below) but then 4-5 "aftermath endings" where you reflect on the choice the led to the major ending and pick a branch to represent why you did it. Those branches are the final decisions of the story.
Rubbery Murders is rather unusual compared to more recent Fate-locked stories in that it's almost entirely linear; before the two choices I mentioned, there's only one other choice in the whole thing. More recent Fate-locked stories have "bushier" reconverging shapes before reaching a final "flower" at the tip where you make your final choice -- you'll eventually get to the same point in the story, but there are other choices to make along the way. (Think about the structure of The Waltz that Moved the World, for instance -- many different things to do to gather information.)
If I were cynical, I might say that Failbetter has drifted more and more towards heeding the advice of many choice-game makers (including themselves) that players really like to feel like they're making a choice every page or two of reading at the very longest -- even if it's a choice that affects a little bit of texture, or order of events / route, or is what's called a "reflective choice" and affects nothing but the mind of the chooser through the act of choice. It's definitely true in my experience that people perceive those kinds of structures as more "like a game" and less "like a click-to-advance interactive slideshow/novel" or however it is people are complaining about relative sparseness of choice these days. There's definitely quite a bit of artfulness involved, no matter how you slice the magician's deck of cards.
The final choice in Rubbery Murders also has "one correct answer" which you can glean from looking at all the evidence you've been reading along the linear way -- which makes it rather different than a lot of other endings in this game. Interestingly, you get the same monetary reward no matter what, but the ethics of the situation are quite different. And I'd say there is a fair amount of lore in there -- about the Roads Beneath, and the activities of devils, social climbers, amber traders, and the prejudice against Rubberies. Everyday stuff in some ways, but isn't that what everyone has been loving about Frequently Deceased?
[spoiler]The major endings involve picking who you think the culprit of the murders is -- and the choice before that has to do with how you interrogate the prime suspect. Doing so in a cursory fashion doesn't require spending any connections or a skill check, but also gives you less evidence. Every ending gives you the same "payment money" from the Constables, but only one gives you a big boost to Watchful, and that's the correct answer (also suggested by the text of that result). Amusingly, you can also accuse the Rubbery suspect of murder, then change your mind and run to stop his execution, and name another suspect -- but you can name him again and repeat the loop, infinitely. It would be hte most sadistic manner of grinding Rubbery connection imaginable, I suppose?[/spoiler]
edited by metasynthie on 2/29/2016
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
3/1/2016
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metasynthie wrote:
If I were cynical, I might say that Failbetter has drifted more and more towards heeding the advice of many choice-game makers (including themselves) that players really like to feel like they're making a choice every page or two of reading at the very longest -- even if it's a choice that affects a little bit of texture, or order of events / route, or is what's called a "reflective choice" and affects nothing but the mind of the chooser through the act of choice.
Everyday stuff in some ways, but isn't that what everyone has been loving about Frequently Deceased?
Reflective choices aren't cureall. I'd say more but I am in a rush, but let's just say it is the key between good Choice of Games and really bad ones: the good one make uses of these reflective choice, the bad one make use of the fakechoice script and railroad the players, making the railroading that much worse.
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
3/1/2016
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NiteBrite wrote:
It's like a 25-30 fate story right?
25 Fate, yes. (I haven't bought this one at all so that's the initial cost, not any reset price.)
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Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
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Jeremy Avalon
Posts: 345
3/1/2016
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Unlike the rest of the Fate tab, there is no way to reset the Rubbery Murders once you finish it.
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How we must glow; yes, I bet we look like snow.
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MrBurnside
Posts: 188
3/1/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
I haven't played LLD, so this should be, perhaps, taken with a grain of salt. But...
...
It's called "Long Lost Daughter." It's in the name. I can't read that name and think anything but: "I will have had a daughter." There's nothing else in the name. It's not "Someone Else's Daughter," or "Lost Child." Its "Long Lost Daughter." Fallen London has a great deal of magic and mystery, but how else did you think you would have a daughter?
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thedeadlymoose
Posts: 214
3/1/2016
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MrBurnside wrote:
Robin Mask wrote:
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
I haven't played LLD, so this should be, perhaps, taken with a grain of salt. But...
...
It's called "Long Lost Daughter." It's in the name. I can't read that name and think anything but: "I will have had a daughter." There's nothing else in the name. It's not "Someone Else's Daughter," or "Lost Child." Its "Long Lost Daughter." Fallen London has a great deal of magic and mystery, but how else did you think you would have a daughter?
The text for Long-Lost Daughter is "Your own daughter? Is it possible?" 
(Though the connection to the Bazaar -- "Down here, someone has always lost a daughter." -- IMO makes the "dream" interpretation surprisingly viable, though!)
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
3/1/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
This isn't really a valid complaint as its an optional story-line that clearly advertises its subject matter in advance.
the description curtsy of the Bohemian Sculptress wrote:
Could you really have a long-lost daughter?
"There was someone around earlier. She looked a lot like you. Do you have a relative?"
The game didn't force you into it...
edited by Anne Auclair on 3/1/2016
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
3/1/2016
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It won't work for all characters, but for some the Long Lost Daughter storyline fits in pretty nicely into the character's narrative. I personally was thrilled to see that something I chose on a whim for Gloria ended up explaining a lot about her and the way she is, and it resonated with the path I hope she can take in the future. It wouldn't have worked at all for Madison, and wouldn't have a whole lot of point for Delmar/Sara, but it was a more perfect fit for Gloria than I had anticipated.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
3/1/2016
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MrBurnside wrote:
I haven't played LLD, so this should be, perhaps, taken with a grain of salt. But...
...
It's called "Long Lost Daughter." It's in the name. I can't read that name and think anything but: "I will have had a daughter." There's nothing else in the name. It's not "Someone Else's Daughter," or "Lost Child." Its "Long Lost Daughter." Fallen London has a great deal of magic and mystery, but how else did you think you would have a daughter?
I can see your point, but I do still feel to the contrary . . .
The game to date - for the most part - has always been about choice and chance. It's on occasion that something bad or good will happen out of luck, but that's arguably a part of life . . . for the most part the important aspects of your character rely on choice. The free paths such as the university, down to the pay-for paths such "Flint" and others, and even the ambitions rely a lot on choice. It's part of why I avoided "Nemesis", as I felt none of the choices for a 'loved' one fitted my character, and that was fine (after all, we have other ambitions to choose from).
In this case, I played mostly as I wanted more content to explore and I wanted to see why people disliked it. I expected the same standard of writing and choice that I've become accustomed to playing over the past year; I expected wither a 'daughter' so well written that I would be happy to adjust my character's back-story to accommodate her, or a choice like whether I had an adopted daughter or the possibility of a daughter or even just someone like a daughter (a relative, a friend's child, a student etc.) . . .
See, family isn't just blood.
Family are the people you love and people you feel a duty and/or connection towards; I know many adopted people, and those that would like to adopt, and I find this idea that only a biological child matters . . . abhorrent. I know no such implication was made in this thread (or in the game), but I did expect something like this choice to be available. If my character had an adopted daughter -? I could work with that. If my character had someone like a daughter to him -? I can deal with that. I was more peeved choice was taken away and such a badly written linear path was given.
Yes, I say 'badly written', because it would have been insanely easy to accommodate all kinds of role-player; give the player a choice like the start of "Nemesis", then either change odd things like the occasional noun, or - which is more likely - just keep the story almost exactly the same, as no real mention is made to your past or your relationship or her as a person . . .
* * *
I'd also add that my assumption is all Fate stories are/were EF stories, and to have not played it (when released) would have meant missing out on content or wasting money by not playing . . . why play £5 on a story you won't play? Not only that, but I think it's reasonable to assume a game heavily based on choice would give you a choice here . . . adoption or even a close bond is enough to name one a 'daughter'. Heck, I've even seen some in-laws refer to said children as 'my daughter' or 'my son' . . .
The game is so heavily creative . . . it's all about love . . .
Ha, if I can only 'love' a biological child then the Bazaar has a very limited mind . . .
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
3/1/2016
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Exceptional Stories are a very new thing, starting only in May of 2015. Before then the only Exceptional Friend exclusive stories available were the ones located specifically within the House of Chimes.
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Myrto
Posts: 209
3/1/2016
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I played the Long Lost Daughter story a long time ago, before I had a really good lock on my main character's, um, characteristics. However, I am pretty sure I was able to conclude the story with a choice to reflect the fact that Myrto is a pretty asexual person, not interested in romantic relationships. So, without really saying too much here, I finished the story in a way that satisfied me as far as the character goes, IIRC, which is never certain.
Does this sound correct to others who have played this story? I think that I played this before I realized you could save things to the journal.
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Erika
Posts: 528
3/1/2016
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I have ~all~ (save for choices) the text echoed if anyone feels like sending me a PM.
Anyways, I bring this up so someone can solve this issue of "Is she really my daughter?" once and for all.
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