Master Polarimini
Posts: 310
2/14/2015
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I cannot thumb-up enough the last Hieronimous' post.
By the way, the fact that the engine power does not respond linearly with the weight of the ship -does- mean that you feel the additional power more in bigger ships, but does -not- mean that you don't have any advantage at all. I like to upgrade the engine quite early in the games I have played; the additional cost in fuel is quite minor and I like that extra kick in movement. And definitely it does not ruin you! My captain is quite happy and relatively prosper even with (I like to think, also because of) the additional initial expense of a new engine.
By the way, not to iterate something that has already been said multiple times, but: if you feel you made some bad choices with one captain, like for example purchasing some upgrade for the ship too soon, the Zee has no shortage ways to die which will allow you to restart with a clean slate and have a more successful run with your next captain, having learned from your mistakes and allowing you to try another path with different decisions to see if it's better.
edited by Master Polarimini on 2/14/2015
--
Devices workshop opening soon...
Follow my story at http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Master~Polarimini
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Gideon Xanthous
Posts: 36
2/14/2015
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Exactly, the game doesn't lie to you about the stats of the engines, it just comes down to logic. You outfit a starter ship with an engine meant for a dreadnaught, of course its going to burn more fuel because it generates more power in order to push bigger ships, since that's what its designed to do.
But then again, I've been running my Dreadnaught on the starter engines for a dozen runs now and have made do with it (I tried to make The Serpentine, but failed to get a Satisfied Magician, and upgraded Maybe's Rival to get a little more power).
Think of it this way, IRL, you wouldn't strap a cargo ship engine to a zodiac dingy, right? You may get more power than a standard gas engine, but that thing will also either sink the dingy or send it flying apart from so much power. Heh, luckily they didn't through that feature in (except I guess if switch to full power, they may explode).
This is why, to me at least, The Serpentine is the best engine in the game (or one of the best), it combines fuel efficiency with a lot of power, and some pretty nice stat boosts for an incredibly cheap price when compared to other engines.
edited by Gideon Xanthous on 2/14/2015
edited by Gideon Xanthous on 2/14/2015
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Fretling
Posts: 529
2/14/2015
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I wouldn't necessarily point to "logic". Systems vary. As others have mentioned, video game "logic" mostly says that anything you can buy is an upgrade, and you should get as rich as possible and upgrade as much as possible in order to make linear progress toward achieving godlike power.
The Serpentine is nice, but without the assurance that he was likely to succeed (as I received with another Officer at [spoiler]Penstock's Wicket[/spoiler]), it didn't feel right letting him hare off with wild revenge schemes that might get him killed.
edited by Fretling on 2/14/2015
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SporksAreGoodForYou
Posts: 291
2/14/2015
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zwol wrote:
Some personal observations.
- The only ship upgrade that I'm sure is worth buying is the Hellthrasher. With the Hellthrasher and Iron ~60 you can reliably one-hit zee-bats, steam-pinnaces, and Auroral Megalops, which means you don't have to worry about getting killed in sight of home. Do not attempt to fight anything else in the starting ship, particularly if your turning rate is slow, until you have a lot more Iron. (I have not yet managed to construct any of the weapons created via plot events, or afford any of the ships with more gun slots.)
Reproach is awesome. 200 echoes, one shots megalops and bats. Get it, die, pass it on.
If you have one of the bigger ships, don't run with a full crew! 30 crew eat three times as much food as 10 crew. You gotta have a margin above half, but the difference in supply consumption between 20 and 30 crew is easily the difference between turning a profit and turning to cannibalism. (That said, once you have a bigger ship you should be able to safely hunt Pirate Frigates, Western Angler Crabs, and Bound-Sharks for extra food.)
The new clayman help here. +xxx engine power, -3 max crew. Means you can run an even lighter crew in bigger ships. I recently grabbed the Phorcyd covette (forward weapon slot) and with the clay men, it means I can run 6-7 crew and still be at full speed. Plus 200 hull. Annoyed about the storage, but you can't have it all.
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zwol
Posts: 40
2/14/2015
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SporksAreGoodForYou wrote:
zwol wrote:
Some personal observations.
- The only ship upgrade that I'm sure is worth buying is the Hellthrasher.
Reproach is awesome. 200 echoes, one shots megalops and bats. Get it, die, pass it on.
I already have the Hellthrasher, so the Reproach would be a downgrade 
... Looking through Carrow's Naval Surplus, the Denunciation costs 500 echoes and is strictly worse than the Reproach, which only costs 200! That's not right. Maybe those two have their stats swapped? And the Hellthrasher is 1500, which is overpriced for only +3 each hull and life damage relative to the next best deck weapon.
I bought the Hellthrasher 'way back around when Steel first came out, I'm not surprised it's different now.
If you have one of the bigger ships, don't run with a full crew! 30 crew eat three times as much food as 10 crew.
The new clayman help here. +xxx engine power, -3 max crew. Means you can run an even lighter crew in bigger ships. I recently grabbed the Phorcyd covette (forward weapon slot) and with the clay men, it means I can run 6-7 crew and still be at full speed. Plus 200 hull. Annoyed about the storage, but you can't have it all.
Good to know. Just having that bit of extra margin might be worth it in itself, several times I've had to limp home at half speed across the entire damn map, praying the zee monsters wouldn't notice me and counting every single fuel and terror tick.
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SporksAreGoodForYou
Posts: 291
2/14/2015
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zwol wrote:
... Looking through Carrow's Naval Surplus, the Denunciation costs 500 echoes and is strictly worse than the Reproach, which only costs 200! That's not right. Maybe those two have their stats swapped? And the Hellthrasher is 1500, which is overpriced for only +3 each hull and life damage relative to the next best deck weapon.
I think that's been mentioned in other threads, and is certainly backwards. I understand a fix is coming. But yeah, it seems like deck guns are generally pretty lame, and I can't settle on a good forward weapon, so I'm running the heart-ender. Flensing seems better than torps, given the cost of torpedo ammo. Plus, with the flensing range, you can pretty much kite any zeemonster, because their charg attacks will never reach you. Just sit in reverse and pepper them. I should probably try out torpedos though.
Good to know. Just having that bit of extra margin might be worth it in itself, several times I've had to limp home at half speed across the entire damn map, praying the zee monsters wouldn't notice me and counting every single fuel and terror tick.
With a bigger engine, they'll definitely hurt fuel consumption, so often, I'll keep them in the hold, and just switch out if/when when I get low on crew.
edited by SporksAreGoodForYou on 2/14/2015
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Fretling
Posts: 529
2/14/2015
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Keeping them in reserve sounds like a great idea! I wonder if they can trigger "Unfinished!"
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Moleculor
Posts: 14
2/14/2015
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Gregg Johnson wrote:
Except it really doesn't... that's an unjustified inference.
This is a game *filled to the brim* with riddles and puzzles and things you need to either guess or infer.
The stats on an engine being green and bigger than another engine? Is *not* an 'unjustified' inference. Bigger green numbers are (supposed to be) better than smaller green numbers.
Flavor text is not as important (or shouldn't be as important) as actual listed stats, and the listed stats, and when the listed stats disagree with flavor text not directly on the engine, the stats should be what I can go by.
Gregg Johnson wrote:
But at the same time, power is really the most meaningful stat that can be shown.
But showing engine power doesn't prevent them from showing fuel efficiency, as is clearly evident on the engine that DOES show fuel efficiency.
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
Also, Moleculor, I wouldn't put much stock in ZeaCat's "analysis" Zeacat is trying to get you riled up and angry and leaving out salient facts.
I stopped paying attention to ZeaCat when s/he demonstrated they were crazy and eager to play the victim role.
But none of you seem to be arguing with the 'end result' of what they're describing and I'm responding to each of you that supports their final conclusion: That engines deceptively consume more fuel than their speed increase provides for by failing to list that loss of fuel efficiency as a stat.
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
1) Not taking enough risks.
Days before starting this thread, the kinds of risks I was taking involved shooting moth-bird-things sailors were superstitious about while sailing back from sailing off the northern edge of the zee and ending up farther away from London than I ever had been before. I take *plenty* of risks, I'm just trying to not be *reckless*.
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
Ok, so you fail the check; so you die. You start over again and have a chance to take different choices
The thing is, I'm not seeing that many different choices. Unless my starting character creation *wildly* alters the quests and choices available to me, or death opens up other options, all the interesting choices are out where I can't really zail on a whim or any time a choice comes up, only one option sounds like the smart choice. I'm starting to see what people's objection to this game is. Death and dying probably means re-reading the same chapters of a book over again, not experiencing a vastly new story. And that sounds boring, so I'm avoiding death.
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
2) Not taking advantage of resources available to you (the wiki,
Strategy guides, spoilers, and wikis should *never* be considered a "resource" in a story/writing based game such as this. It's acceptable for freeform sandboxes such as Minecraft, but not for this game. Never for this type of game.
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
When three or four people all suggest "hey, why don't you try X", maybe it'd be easier and more productive to actually go try X rather than reply in detail to all of them why each of them is individually wrong and X just won't work.
Two objections to this. First, I went and tried X, and it didn't really work out. (Visiting Venderbight cost me significantly, Sphinxstone and a risky trip to the south east resulted in a *slight* increase in my money buffer at cost of the near destruction of my ship, and that's it. Of the four ports I uncovered, only one seems *possibly* worth revisiting, the other three seem empty and worthless, or worse, like a trap I shouldn't touch.)
Second, I shouldn't have to come to the forums for guides and instructions on what to do next. The *game* being too aimless and lacking in indications of changes to quest lines, etc, is a problem that needs to be solved in the *game's* design, not by requiring players to visit the forums (or worse, visit wikis). When every trip out can be your last unless you make sufficient money on that trip to survive AND trading is a pointless exercise in futility unless only done opportunistically, not having a clear goal while also having too many choices in *possible* routes to take makes it pretty much impossible to know which choice to make, leaving you sitting there paralyzed.
Master Polarimini wrote:
if you feel you made some bad choices with one captain, like for example purchasing some upgrade for the ship too soon, the Zee has no shortage ways to die which will allow you to restart with a clean slate and have a more successful run with your next captain, having learned from your mistakes and allowing you to try another path with different decisions to see if it's better.
The idea of starting the book over from the beginning again is exhausting just to think about. While I like reading books, I don't like re-reading them, especially when reading this one takes so much time. I tend to read fast, the vast distances between sentences in this one makes reading almost a chore.
I've got another goal in mind, now that I can actually (barely) afford it. It'll probably work out. Probably. But the game seriously needs some work still in how it presents information, demonstrates the change of time and circumstances, etc.
edited by Moleculor on 2/14/2015
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Madmurdock
Posts: 25
2/14/2015
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Well, to be honest, I think you need to stop playing. I don't think you're enjoying it and don't think it'll be productive for you to try and push through. Not meaning to sound harsh or mean, but plenty of people have tried to help and none of it has taken.
I will finish with a couple of points though:
The fact that the engine power is green DOES mean it's an upgrade. It has more engine power. If you look under the "Iron & Misery Co." tab in the shop, it says "Bigger engines consumes more fuel". Therefore it's logical to infer that engine power will effect fuel consumption.
The Hunter's Keep chain DOES tell you something is changing. After the second or third visit the text at the bottom literally says, "You are acquainted with the sisters but something has changed". The sphinxstones don't, I'll grant you that, but I don't think it's supposed to be a quest chain anyway. It's something you do when you are heading back to London and have room in your hold and then suddenly, "Woah, story!". I think it's a good way of doing, having a story appear out of a seemingly mundane task, but can understand it if you disagree.
In truth, if you enjoy the game, you'll find a way to get by. I never played the beta, just bought the game on release day and I haven't had the problems you had. So you'll either find a way to keep playing and have fun, or you'll stop. I don't think there's anything anyone can do to help you.
Whichever you end up choosing, good luck!
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Gideon Xanthous
Posts: 36
2/14/2015
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Its the nature of rogue-like games not to hold your hand or necessarily tell you what the best strategy is. FTL, Darkwood, Dark Souls, a bunch of games are just like this, do you need to look up a wiki for them? It'd certainly make your chances of success better rather than dying dozens of times and learning what works and what doesn't, but then where is the experience?
And seriously, does the difference power and fuel efficiency not make much sense?
I don't know, I think some people just aren't used to how this game wants people to think or play, and it turns them off.
edited by Gideon Xanthous on 2/14/2015
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
2/14/2015
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Madmurdock wrote:
Well, to be honest, I think you need to stop playing. I don't think you're enjoying it and don't think it'll be productive for you to try and push through. Not meaning to sound harsh or mean, but plenty of people have tried to help and none of it has taken.!
Yeah, sorta. I hate to say this but I think you're . . playing the game wrong, for lack of a better way to say it. This isn't a standard game and it doesn't follow standard game design "rules". You're saying a lot of things about what "this type of game must have" and trying to impose your own view of how the game "should" be played; everyone else is telling you to play the game a different way; you've decided you don't want to play the game that way but want to do it your way. Your way doesn't sound very fun, so maybe try something else? Darkest Dungeon is a pretty good indy game with some similarities in tone and atmosphere, maybe try that. (I wrote a Guide for that game also, it's on Steam in the Guides section).
Ultimately, this is an exploration game. You have to either explore on your own and be ok with the inherent risk of that -- which frankly it just seems like isn't your thing, given that uncovering four whole ports & travelling to Venderbight seems to have topped out your risk-tolerance meter -- OR you need to go online and figure out what options to choose to minimize the risk. You don't have to do either -- you can just dive right in and accept the risk of death, without ever going online at all -- but those are your options. You can either dive in and start doing "reckless" things and accept the consequences, or you can go online and do outside research and prepare and minimize the risk, or you can go play something else instead. Good luck whatever you choose!
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/14/2015
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Doctor~Hieronymous
Please, no photographers.
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Moleculor
Posts: 14
2/14/2015
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Madmurdock wrote:
Therefore it's logical to infer that engine power will effect fuel consumption.
But not to the extent that it does. It's logical to assume that since engines with improved fuel efficiency show that as a stat, engines with reduced fuel efficiency would also show that as a stat.
Madmurdock wrote:
The Hunter's Keep chain DOES tell you something is changing. After the second or third visit the text at the bottom literally says, "You are acquainted with the sisters but something has changed".
No, it said that on my *first* visit. Literal first visit, with my first captain. In fact, I'm fairly certain it said that *before* I talked to the sisters (I succeeded at some other exploration option.) I assumed that I had missed some sort've introductory stuff by exploring before speaking. When my second captain came around, and it provided me with the *exact same interaction results* prior to receiving the "something has changed" message, and then the *exact same interaction results* after receiving (on the first or second visit) the "something has changed" message, I assumed it was a bug. If something is changing, I'd expect things to change, not stay the same.
Madmurdock wrote:
The sphinxstones don't, I'll grant you that, but I don't think it's supposed to be a quest chain anyway. It's something you do when you are heading back to London and have room in your hold and then suddenly, "Woah, story!". I think it's a good way of doing, having a story appear out of a seemingly mundane task, but can understand it if you disagree.
The layout of my islands combined with the vast amount of hold space required for it made this something that would have never happened 'naturally' for this captain, and considering I fully intend to try to not die... it would have been ages before I saw it. Considering the way it's discussed here as if it's a near 'required' early-game thing in this thread? Bad design. I'd seriously suggest that the Sphinxstone just needs to take up half the space it currently does.
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
given that uncovering four whole ports & travelling to Venderbight seems to have topped out your risk-tolerance meter
Uncovering four ports didn't "top my risk-tolerance meter". Running out of fuel (or rather, getting to a point where I had *just* enough fuel to get back to London) is what did it. Uncovering those four ports was the limit to what I could do before *needing* to head back to London. What was I supposed to do, keep sailing until I run out of fuel, intentionally losing what progress I had managed?
Travelling to Venderbight (and then on to Wither) at the suggestion of people *in this thread* and it costing me money for no return? That also 'tops my risk-tolerance meter', because losing money with nothing to gain for it is going to *kill* me if I do it too often. And it's not the death that worries me, it's the *loss of progress* and the necessity of having to go through all the same motions over again that sounds so *damn* boring. From what I can tell, I'm *already* going to have to play this game four+ times just to see most of the content, so I'd rather try to keep the repetition to a minimum.
I've made *plenty* of 12-15 port loops around the map. I've sailed off the northern edge *knowing* it was probably a bad idea, still did it any way, and still managed to limp back to Fallen London. I've clicked on most of the challenges I come across, so long as they were actually available and not red-text high risk, or they didn't disappear when I clicked on a different option.
My problem was I had done all that, multiple times, and I was running out of money doing it. I had run out of things to do that didn't sound like a waste of time or sheer suicide. The only thing left was to either spend more money than I actually had, load up with too little fuel to reach my destination, and try to deliver coffee to some asshole just for the ability to shop at a location I don't even really see a reason to shop at (or to do it in a 'safer' way that would take five times as long, and tax my RL sanity/patience), or to sail off into areas of the map I saw no chance of being able to return from (i.e. commit suicide). The game actively told me *not* to bother with trade (writing off shop's trade goods, the Sphinxstone stuff, etc), so I didn't consider Sphinxstone an 'option' (and two later attempts at it *reinforced* that opinion).
The repeatable stuff? Doesn't change enough until it finally does, and then it changes in one fell swoop. The Hunter's Keep is a *perfect* example of this: I had something like eight *identical* interactions in that house, all the while the game "claiming" something had changed. No, nothing was changing. Nothing at all. And then, suddenly out of left field, everything was different. That's not the gradual change the game suggests is happening, that's a lever being flipped in game logic, or someone forgetting to write the necessary intermediate content.
The Sphinxstone is another example of this. Identical interaction after identical interaction. Nothing to suggest anything other than cash-money will ever come of it, and there's no *narrative* reason to pursue it. Unless you luck out with a good map layout (which I didn't), you won't ever visit the place, and you won't ever see what it leads to.
I have no problems taking risks when I see a reason to do so. The game lacks sufficient reasons presented. It's like you're supposed to meta-game the fact that risk leads to reward, rather than risk being *actual risk*.
edited by Moleculor on 2/14/2015
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penknife
Posts: 85
2/14/2015
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I'm not sure what more you want from this forum, Moleculor. It seems like you don't like some pretty essential elements of the game, like the slow pace of exploration and the need to repeatedly die and start a new captain. Those things probably aren't going to change. What would make you feel better about playing, or feel better about quitting the game and playing something else?
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Penknife
Most social actions welcome, no SMEN or Boxed Cats please.
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
2/14/2015
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Yeah, I'm running out of ideas here. If you dont' like the game you don't like the game, sorry. I guess you could try modding the game files -- you can edit the values to like triple ship speed, halve fuel consumption, etc. if you want.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Doctor~Hieronymous
Please, no photographers.
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Impish Axile
Posts: 50
2/14/2015
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Gonna repeat what I said in a previous post:
Yes. This game involves taking a lot of risks, GENUINE risks, when you actually don't know what will happen. The tagline is "Lose your mind. Eat your crew." and the startup screen literally tells you that 'your first captain will likely die.' You will make mistakes. You've clearly spent a lot longer with your very first captain still alive than most unspoiled people would, but you will have to take some risks.
That is the part of the point of punishing games. They are NOT fair, the consequences of your actions are NOT going to be clear the first time around. You will make mistakes, you may fail. As you go, you learn what does and doesn't work the hard way - in many cases, it's not obvious at all, and there's not even any clue. Try, fail, learn, fail, improve, fail, improve more, succeed, that's the way these games work. Sunless Sea's actually fairly forgiving for a """roguelike."""
Also:
Permadeath seem like a huge pain, making you waste time? I agree. People who feel this way should turn it off.
Now, I do agree that Engine Power is poorly labeled, and kind of bullshit.
Aside from that though, I don't know why you're even here. You ignore everything people tell you (before you bring up Venderbight AGAIN, people told you you 'might already have' colorful items, it's not our fault you decided sailing over there on a trip without doing anything else was a good idea instead of just looking at the descriptions of items you do have), you complain that nothing 'seems' obviously fruitful so there's no point in doing anything. Because you might hit a 'trap' that isn't useful.
People keep mentioning the wiki not because it's "the only way" to figure things out. It's because you've steadfastly refused to figure things out the way the game is meant to be played - trying things out without knowing whether they'll work or what will happen next. You don't want to investigate things and learn the hard way, and yet you also claim that you don't want your hand held. You do something, you can't see the immediate benefit, and you decide it's worthless.
To be frank? It really sounds like you came into this game expecting that all the warnings and talk about learning through failure were for other, lesser people, and you're upset that you really can't just figure things out without taking any risks or messing up ever. You think this isn't 'fair.' No. Lots of things in this game really are problems, but this isn't one of them. The fact that you can't just figure things out ahead of time, that you will try things and get burned a lot, that is literally the most-stressed thing in the sales pitches.
And I'll say AGAIN, since you've ignored it every time someone has brought it up: if permadeath seems like a pain and makes you unwilling to take risks, TURN IT OFF.
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Gregg Johnson
Posts: 263
2/14/2015
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Honestly I'm starting to suspect he just wanted somewhere to vent before continuing on... He does make a few good points re: miscommunication from the tutorial, etc.
edited by Olorin on 2/14/2015
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Impish Axile
Posts: 50
2/14/2015
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Fair, yeah.
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Moleculor
Posts: 14
2/15/2015
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No, I was here for exactly what I said. And as I've already said, y'all helped me find a goal and put me into a position where I can (barely) pursue it.
I just expected a game with this intriguing of a backstory and writing to provide more feedback and information than it does. I'm here for the writing, and I feel like the writing is dropping the ball. Eight+ identical unchanging events is defined as 'progress' somehow, and that just doesn't feel right.
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Impish Axile
Posts: 50
2/15/2015
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Fair. Apologies for going off at you.
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Marianne Anders
Posts: 127
2/15/2015
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I guess...reading this thread, molecular: what are the things you want to get out of playing this game? what do you want to experience?
edited by Marianne Anders on 2/15/2015
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Not all who wander are lost. Sometimes, they are very lost.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Marianne~Anders
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