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Guest

10 days ago
Except the people writing it? Who describe the total lack of persecution or even *controversy* over homosexuality and fluidity as:

"fudging it"

?

And the point is very much that not only is it wildly inconsistent to allow the above & bar polygamy considering what the Bazaar is & wants- but so is creating a society that exiles people for social faux pas but glosses over fluidity and homosexuality completely with absolutely no explanation in game. There's an explanation out of game: namely intersectional politics, but having *no* corresponding rationale within the story itself is just plain bad writing.

Notice how I'm not saying that these things shouldn't be allowed- just that the setting should at least *acknowledge* that they're: new, out of place or otherwise less than universally accepted?

(And again, the whole "we don't want to exclude anyone or make anyone feel discriminated against" line applies exactly as much to polygamists & the polyamorous.)
edited by Isaac Gates on 12/1/2018
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Jason5237
Jason5237
Posts: 232

10 days ago
Victorian sensibilities aside, Fallen London has paved a wide road for gender equality, same-sexed relationships, etc. Unfinished storylets and new branches in the development roadmap abound. I can safely assume that FBG has no moral objection to Polygamy in an official in-game capacity. However, there are finite resources and staff. I have to imagine that its implementation is very low on the wish list, if at all.

What are the priorities and the preferred additions? I think that’s probably the most sensible way to approach any addition and likely how FBG approaches these kind of decisions.
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Honeyaddict
Honeyaddict
Posts: 322

10 days ago
Oh my, three pages... I honestly had never guessed this question would have started such a... hotly debated subject.

--
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pleasure to meet you.

Has some strange ideas the Masters probably won't approve of like some items and establishing a Colony in Parabola.

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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 925

10 days ago
Polyamory is easily accomodated. You can date multiple people through the actions at your lodgings.
I don't know if I'm speaking for everyone, but I think nobody expects the game to cater to every possible tendency - all at once. So far they are doing a wonderful job of making previously excluded people included, which is one reason for their popularity. While to you it might seem like bad writing, for others the ease with which homosexuality and fluidity got implemented was a relief. But then again, tastes vary and people care about different aspects of writing.
edited by Jolanda Swan on 12/1/2018

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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PSGarak
PSGarak
Posts: 609

10 days ago
I have always gotten the impression that there's a large gap between society and Society in this game. Society, the Faction with whom one can get renown, is the rarified exalted (or so they believe of themselves), and more-or-less the aristocracy and their hangers-on. Capital-S Society is very stodgy and conservative and also very concerned about the form and appearance of things. As a result, anything that you do that intersects Society requires that one Put On Appearances and be very Proper. All-in-all, this group of people pretends that nothing happened to London except the lights got a little dimmer and the wines a little more mushroomy.

Meanwhile, lowercase-s society, the gestalt whole of Fallen London consisting mostly of people trying to get through their lives, has changed. And they acknowledge those changes. And Society judges them for that, and uses that as a pretext for excluding them for Society (but of course they never were going to include them anyways). Capital-S Society believes itself to be the bastion against the advancing wave of decadence and decay that is the rest of London changing and adapting and advancing and evolving. And Society members have a centuries-long tradition of finding excuses why anyone else is inferior to themselves, as a part of a reflexive talent for acquiring and keeping power.

What this means is, there's a very large gap between what's more-or-less accepted, and what's "acceptable." People in this game boink in dark corners at the drop of a hat, but exposed ankles are still considered scandalous. Why? Because everybody does it, but everyone pretends that no one does it. On the streets, in the bars, on the Docks, everyone looks the other way or carries on with a wink and a nod. But in the fancy salons or at church, everyone still faints at the merest suggestion.

(I am led to believe this was true to an extent in historical Victorian London itself. Appearances to the contrary, there was still an adequate amount of gambling and whoring and premarital smooching that went unacknowledged, especially by the upper class. But I'm not a historian.)

Fallen London is very much a game about secrets, and about the complexity and contradictions of human behavior, and about people pretending to be things that they're not. I think it's very much in-setting to do things, and accept things, but still pretend (when required) that such things are not done, or not accepted.

Marriage is, by necessity, one of the old-school traditions or institutions or whatever you call it. Especially a big fancy-ass wedding held at the Bazaar with Masters and Bishops in attendance is very much one of the Captial-S Society things. As such, one Maintains Appearances for the purposes of actual, legal, ritualized, formal matrimony. What one does in one's own lodgings with or without one's spouse is not the business of anybody except yourself, your spouse, any number of mutually consenting parties, the coalman, the urchins on the roof, and whoever the urchins are willing to sell the information to for a half-cooked rat. And if you've any sense, you pay the Urchins yourself.

--
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 925

10 days ago
And they are damn expensive.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
+1 link
Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3340

10 days ago
I think this discussion is going nowhere fast in large part because people are giving Doylist answers to a Watsonian question. In other words, Isaac is asking "why do the characters in-game have different social mores than reality". Everyone's response is "because Failbetter decided to write it that way". So, while true, it's not very effective at addressing the original question.

Isaac Gates wrote:
And the point is very much that not only is it wildly inconsistent to allow the above & bar polygamy considering what the Bazaar is & wants- but so is creating a society that exiles people for social faux pas but glosses over fluidity and homosexuality completely with absolutely no explanation in game. There's an explanation out of game: namely intersectional politics, but having *no* corresponding rationale within the story itself is just plain bad writing.

Notice how I'm not saying that these things shouldn't be allowed- just that the setting should at least *acknowledge* that they're: new, out of place or otherwise less than universally accepted?


Like you say, there isn't a Watsonian answer. While we can invent personal interpretations of why this setting might differ from real life, the game never explains this. In fact, as far as I'm aware, the game outright does not acknowledge the possibility of homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc. Only Doylist answers are possible here, so I'll give a more-detailed version of something I previously said.

Failbetter has changed various aspects of the setting from their historical inspiration to make players feel more welcome and better enjoy the game. When players deal with bigotry in real life, and play a game such as Fallen London as escapism, they don't want to deal with bigotry in the game as well. The issue is, even if the PC never encounters bigotry, including bigotry to the setting at all—even historical—still interferes with escapism. "Here's why nobody's bigoted now" may be less distressing than encountering that bigotry in-character, but it's still a reminder of the unpleasant real-life issue that many players don't want to be reminded of while relaxing. So Failbetter decided to make a lack of bigotry one of the fundamental rules of the setting, to interfere with player enjoyment as little as possible, even if it means breaking suspension of disbelief for some people.


Isaac Gates wrote:
(And again, the whole "we don't want to exclude anyone or make anyone feel discriminated against" line applies exactly as much to polygamists & the polyamorous.)


I'm not convinced this is an accurate comparison for a couple reasons:



1. The game mechanics partially allow polyamorous characters. It's entirely possible to date multiple players, NPCs, or a combination thereof simultaneously. The only thing it's not possible to do is marry them all at once.
2. I'd argue that there's also a difference between actively excluding someone and not actively including them. For example, just as there's no acknowledgement of bigotry towards queer people, the game gives no narrative reason that PCs cannot be polyamorous, or would face bigotry for being so. While there's a limit to characters' ability to act on that identity, though again only with marriage, the identity itself is not rejected.
3. I suspect that there are fewer players for whom polyamory is relevant, and Failbetter has limited resources. In an ideal world, polygamy could be implemented the moment it was suggested, but in that world we'd also have the Ambitions finished and much more. New content is prioritized by how many players make use of it.
4. While the Fallen London setting isn't based off Victorian social mores, it is based off today's. Queer people and relationships are increasingly accepted and visible, so it makes sense for the writers to think to include them. Polyamorous people and relationships are much less accepted and visible, so absent outside prompting, it's not surprising that the writers haven't included any yet.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

For the holiday season, send me Christmas Cards for sips of Cider! Fogscapes with Tentacles strongly preferred. (Only one per character, sorry!)

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
+10 link

Guest

10 days ago
Jolanda Swan wrote:
Polyamory is easily accomodated. You can date multiple people through the actions at your lodgings.
I don't know if I'm speaking for everyone, but I think nobody expects the game to cater to every possible tendency - all at once. So far they are doing a wonderful job of making previously excluded people included, which is one reason for their popularity. While to you it might seem like bad writing, for others the ease with which homosexuality and fluidity got implemented was a relief. But then again, tastes vary and people care about different aspects of writing.
edited by Jolanda Swan on 12/1/2018


The way it was implemented was literally: a social media post follow by a game edit. Meaning the way it was written in to a game that consists of *literally nothing but text* was: it wasn't. If that's not bad writing, what is?

And the Bazaar's involvement in weddings is precisely what makes the fact that polygamy isn't legal absurd- it has the means to overturn that policy at literally any point... and good cause to do so. It doesn't matter if capital S-society objects because they're powerless to oppose it. *One* paragraph in story would be all it'd take to make polygamy just one more thing the aristocracy grudgingly ignores.

Also... okay, so, the reason why fluidity and homosexuality are treated with kid gloves (because avoiding even an EXPLANATION for why there's a lack of bigotry for fear of the mere *mention* of it is precisely that) but polygamy isn't is because... polygamy is less accepted in real life at the present moment? Meaning: subject to even more intolerance? Just... wow.
edited by Isaac Gates on 12/2/2018
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3340

10 days ago
I hope that's not the only thing you got from my post, because it's both not what I meant and one of the most minor points.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

For the holiday season, send me Christmas Cards for sips of Cider! Fogscapes with Tentacles strongly preferred. (Only one per character, sorry!)

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
+4 link
Lady Karnstein
Lady Karnstein
Posts: 172

10 days ago
Hi I am Polyamorous and a Lesbian IRL. I don't feel the game is oppressing me by not having Polygomy. I would, in fact, prefer it, in game and in IRL. But if my female character could not have romantic interludes with women, I would not even be playing. One is a most basic component of who you are (sexuality and/or gender identity) and the other is how you live your life. Thankfully, I can be Polyamorous in game, too, I just can't marry that way. I think the game would be better if I could, but I am not losing any sleep over not being able to like if I were unable to romance or marry women IC.

In short, I don't feel discriminated against. Please do not advocate for me in bad faith.

--
Lady Caroline Karnstein, infamous writer, artist, and courtesan. Unrepentant Invert.
Legendary Charisma, Correspondent, Nocturnal. Poet Laureate of the Neath
Ambassador to Arbor
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Caroline%20Karnstein
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Ixc
Ixc
Posts: 236

10 days ago
To wit, I don't think London finds polyamory scandalous, for they have accepted my marital horro- er, adventures:

[spoiler]

I and my spouse invite people to a boat. As the guests see us wear dusty Parabolan clothing I dug up from a spider infested tomb, they realize the menu only has only week old rats, and somehow, fancy wine. Of course, since we're at zee, they can't leave.

During the party, I shun every guest to talk to two cowled madmen, one who can't speak English, and another who thinks I'm getting married as battle strategy. Then, I either talk to a tiger who I never invited, who everyone is too scared they'll be eaten by to contradict his forged invitation, or the Bishop, who wants to wrestle with me in front of my spouse. My spouse comes to my rescue by taking off their shirt, and says “that's my job!”, while a crowd of matrons faint. As my spouse locks me in a headlock, the Bishop winks at me, and I realize this is his way of being my wingman.

The morning after, I talk to my spouse, and we both realize we barely know each other but got married because we were both drunk or worse, and we both try to make an explanation for the newspapers. As I leave, I doff my hat and congratulate them on their Notable increase, and promise to divorce the day after our wedding.

The clerk or Master in charge of Notability will sigh at my clerical reappearance, and begrudgingly assign an increase to me and my spouse. Baseborn and Fowlingpiece hide under their tables at my approach, but give up when I bribe them. The newspapers report, dumbstruck, that I have had another wedding. The DTC is reported as saying “Please, someone stop him. I'm too tired to stop that madman anymore.”

Currently, I have married:
* An educated Seeking anarchist
* A lawyer that's a spy for the Bazaar
* A hunky Licentiate that I got blackout drunk with, and somehow we both decided marriage would be a good idea. We argued whether we should have Parabolan Linen curtains, or chairs. I won, so we had curtains, of course.
* A timid Licentiate, who presumably timidly murders people
* My last spouse, who was an eminently respectable sort, and a writer. Of course, London stops caring about respectably after the first four. Their name will not be mentioned to prevent scandal from befalling them.

I'm Seeking two more people, so by then I will have married seven people in this bizarre ritual.

When Paris falls, and London becomes the new Forgotten Quarter, the new Speakers may buy freedom from the Name by performing expeditions into my Townhouse, where they pray in fear of the god of matrimony I have become, and leave seven candles that represent the Saints I have married. They will speak my unknown Name to Mr. Eaten, who will cry in fear “He was crazy! I talk to people who want to become candles, and he was the craziest person in that city! Leave me alone!”, and recall in horror the time I approached him with a wedding ring.

They soon realize their newfound freedom is false, for they find themselves uncontrollably Seeking a new path, one more dangerous and maddening than Mr. Eaten could have dreamed of: marriage.



[/spoiler]

If London could stomach this spectacle, polyamory seems sane. Indeed, we need polyamory, for London needs a sane voice in my marriages, as my spouse and I clearly are not.
edited by Ixc on 12/3/2018

--
Pleased to meet you. Ixc, spy and detective. Inventor of the Correspondence Cannon.
Are you a Paramount Presence? Record your name here. For posterity, of course.

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
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Guest

10 days ago
Lady Karnstein wrote:
Hi I am Polyamorous and a Lesbian IRL.


Yeah, but you're not a polygamist are you? So the crux of the issue still has nothing to do with you. My reasoning was that polygamy and polyamory are related things and that any decision that *might* offend someone who practices one could easily extend to the other. And just because you (a sample size of one) don't feel left out or marginalized because one aspect of your sexuality is catered to and another isn't doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. And apparently at least one person who does feel that way writing a sufficiently maudlin e-mail is all it takes to tip the scales.

(I'm not advocating for anybody, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of bending over backwards to accommodate the *potential* sensitivities of one minority and not another.)
edited by Isaac Gates on 12/2/2018
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Guest

10 days ago
Optimatum wrote:
I hope that's not the only thing you got from my post, because it's both not what I meant and one of the most minor points.


No, those were just the bits that were too silly to not point out.

(Seriously, an *explanation for a lack of bigotry* is too distressing to include because it *brings bigotry to mind*? There's pussyfooting and then there's pussyfooting and then there's that. This is a game, not an online support group.)
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Lady Karnstein
Lady Karnstein
Posts: 172

10 days ago
I am not a polygamist because that would involve fraud and bigamy under US law. I could be fined and arrested, and neither I nor my partners could enjoy full benefits anyway so no. While gay marriage is a legal thing, being gay isn't, and has a notable impact on one's life.

Having queer characters is not being catered to any more than having straight characters is, it is being included. It's having people like us in the game. Caroline is like me in the sense she is a lesbian and she is polyamorous, enjoying game effects for both. If one is upset by such things, they can marry an opposite sex partner and turn down other confessions of love and live their way. If they are bothered by people enjoying the game their way while they enjoy their own, then I am pleased such a person is upset.

--
Lady Caroline Karnstein, infamous writer, artist, and courtesan. Unrepentant Invert.
Legendary Charisma, Correspondent, Nocturnal. Poet Laureate of the Neath
Ambassador to Arbor
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Caroline%20Karnstein
+10 link

Guest

10 days ago
Lady Karnstein wrote:
If one is upset by such things, they can marry an opposite sex partner and turn down other confessions of love and live their way. If they are bothered by people enjoying the game their way while they enjoy their own, then I am pleased such a person is upset.


Boy, either your attention span is very limited or you just pigeonholed me much harder than I assumed (which is saying a lot). Quote myself:

"Notice how I'm not saying that these things shouldn't be allowed, - just that the setting should at least *acknowledge* that they're: new, out of place or otherwise less than universally accepted?"

I never said any of the things you mentioned should be removed from the game, or upset me in & of themselves- quite the contrary, I'm arguing *even more* things should be allowed. Just in a way that involves... y'know, actual consideration for how it would fit into the setting? And writing that demonstrates it?
edited by Isaac Gates on 12/2/2018
-10 link
Lady Karnstein
Lady Karnstein
Posts: 172

10 days ago
I am a moderator on two different forums. I have been moderating for YEARS. I can smell certain behavior patterns a mile off. You are using dismissive terminology and doing so in a trollish way. You have even discussed pushing your inclusiveness thing to make a point. I feel pretty safe in my judgment.

Waste of time as this probably is, the concept of Polygamy/Polyandry is not new. It is in fact very very old. It was simply not done in London at the time IRL, but then, Giant Space Crabs and squid faced individuals were also thin on the ground. And in such a setting I am not sure why it would require special consideration. "Okay the talking cats and squid people I can handle, but this polygamy thing that is in the bible is weird and I don't agree with it." seems a vanishingly small minority.

You are correct I am only one data point. I'd be happy to discuss it with other IRL Polyamorous people on here and see how they feel about it. I am simply injecting my opinion as one.
edited by Lady Karnstein on 12/2/2018

--
Lady Caroline Karnstein, infamous writer, artist, and courtesan. Unrepentant Invert.
Legendary Charisma, Correspondent, Nocturnal. Poet Laureate of the Neath
Ambassador to Arbor
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Caroline%20Karnstein
+8 link

Guest

10 days ago
"Trollish" now there's an academic term if ever I've heard one. And I'm *sure* the fact that you were an appointed official in *two* online communities of an unspecified size & nature makes you an *expert* judge of character & intent.

"Waste of time as this probably is, the concept of Polygamy/Polyandry is not new. It is in fact very very old. It was simply not done in London at the time IRL, but then, Giant Space Crabs and squid faced individuals were also thin on the ground. And in such a setting I am not sure why it would require special consideration. "Okay the talking cats and squid people I can handle, but this polygamy thing that is in the bible is weird and I don't agree with it." seems a vanishingly small minority."

At this point I'm pretty sure you haven't actually read a single post I've written or considered a single point I've made. Honestly... I don't even know where to begin unpacking that one- so I think I just won't. You seem to have convinced yourself that you've got my worldview & personality sussed out based on one line of text in another thread that was decidedly not serious... so really, discussing anything with you at this point would be a waste of time. You wouldn't even be arguing against me, you'd just be talking at the strawman you've built between your ears.
edited by Isaac Gates on 12/2/2018
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Lady Karnstein
Lady Karnstein
Posts: 172

10 days ago
I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to provide context for readers. But I have provided well enough at this point I shan't any sleep over it.

--
Lady Caroline Karnstein, infamous writer, artist, and courtesan. Unrepentant Invert.
Legendary Charisma, Correspondent, Nocturnal. Poet Laureate of the Neath
Ambassador to Arbor
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Caroline%20Karnstein
+2 link
babelfishwars
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1113

8 days ago
Isaac Gates had received a previous warning about their postings and posting style. As a result of their recent actions, they are no longer welcome in this forum. I'm locking this thread as they managed to derail it entirely.

--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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