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shinyemptyhead
shinyemptyhead
Posts: 14

12/15/2017
I had a super-easy Albert Clock as the bargains in town were Bronzewood and Stained Glass. I'd guess that's one to be fixed along with a town having a prospect and a bargain on the same item.
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Nanako
Nanako
Posts: 535

12/16/2017
A small specific comment, regarding this bargain:
https://i.imgur.com/x5GRtkv.png

Most of the bargains in the game have some explanation for the price. Explanations like:
-We bought all this stuff by accident
-we're fencing stolen/illegal goods
-The trader only makes short trips around the local area to aggregate produce
-The seller is undercutting competition, selling things they produced themselves

You get the idea.
Anyways with this specific example, i dont see a reason for it. This particular bargain was found in magdalenes and he was selling three barrels.
To take threee barrels of hours from lustrum, and drag them all the way over here, to sell them at 40% of market value? It doesnt make sense, he's making a huge loss any way you slice it. At that price difference he'd be better off visiting winchester and selling them there.

I think this bargain needs some explanation to justify the low price. Why is this seller willing to take such a low payment for the galaxy's hottest commodity, he could get more selling them to just about anyone anywhere

For comparison, see this bargain, also selling hours:
https://i.imgur.com/sO1PGJe.png

This one is good, because it explains that the hours he's selling are not from lustrum, but mined by his own hand from floating rocks. Hence, this one fits well into the self produce/undercutting justification. He can set whatever price he likes for his own labour

On the other hand, the original one at the top is a broker. That's a person who buys and sells things - he didn't mine those hours himself. The economics of it don't make sense when considering he'd have to buy them from whoever mined then, and then pay shipping costs to get them to whereveer he's selling them at
edited by Nanako on 12/17/2017

--
Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it

http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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The bewildered Everyman
The bewildered Everyman
Posts: 3

12/17/2017
Hello everyone,

as i am in the process of testing the system, I am not really ready to give focused feedback just now. I do have a specific suggestion though.

Right now, we have 14 trade-goods, that are part of the trading-system and get imported into New Winchester. These are in order of base price:

Good
Price
Exporters
Sack of Seeds
40
1,5 (Nature Reserve, (Hybras))
Crate of Crockery
50
0
Crate of Munitions
60
0
Jumble of Souls
70
2 (Port Avon, Magdalenes)
Barrel of Hours
80
2 (Port Prosper, Lustrum)
Caddy of Tea
90
0
Ministry Literature
100
0
Gourd of Nectar
120
2 (Titania, Carillon)
Pane of Glass
135
0
Roll of Bombazine
150
0
Bronzewood
175
2 (Circus, Traitors Wood)
Caged Catch
200
0
Selection of Souls
250
0
Cask of Gemstones
300
0

So, right now we have 5 goods that get imported by 2 ports and 9 goods that are not exported at all. From these goods, Glass, Munitions and Tea are relatively important for quests (Glass was explained earlier in this thread, Tea is important to fuel Port Avon, Munitions are required for traitors wood). I suspect this may be because there will be more ports (that have exports) in the final game, but right now it is kinda frustrating to hunt for a bargain not to get a good price but to get a specific good at all.

In light of this I would suggest spreading the exports out a bit.

One possible solution I devised based on the lore of the ports wouldlook something like this:
1a) Sack of Seeds could stay as it is (as Hybras looses its shop relatively quickly). But as I said, I think it would be nice to have the munition available at all times, so I could see the Nature Reserve selling munitions instead of seeds. After all, Leadbeater and Stainrod are a weapon-manufacturer in the lore.
2a) I think Port Avon has the better Story-Reason to sell souls (the ruins), so I would let them stay there.
2b) Magdalenes could sell Glass instead of Souls, as the red and golden windows are an important theme of the port.
3a) From the two ports that sell Hours, Lustrum is the one who I think has more lore reason to do so (they mine the hours after all and the story of the port revolves around it).
3b) Port Prosper could instead sell Caddies of Tea, as it is the end of an imperial trade-route and a stronghold of the London-aligned Windward-company. Also, it has a story-faction of noveau-riche West-Enders. Alternatively, Port Prosper with its industrial theme and slight overtones of war could sell the crates of munitions to have them available somwhere.
4a) I think, it's a hard question if Titania or Carillon has the better reason to sell Gourds of nectar, as both places have a connection to the cloister hives. So I have given both ports ideas for other exports.
4b) Titania could export Literature . They are a city of poets and Creators after all. (And have a loyalist faction that may be intend to have them approved by the ministry).
4c) Carillon could export Selections of Immaculate souls. In the end, the whole playe serves to refine souls after all. So it would make sense that they could sell some with hich quality.
5a) I think Traitors Wood has clearly the better in-story-reason to export bronzewood. It's an bronzewood-forest after all.
5b) The circus could instead export Rolls of bombazine. I think it's thematically okay, as the circus has prominent tents and costumes (it even has the player fetch some), so it may be sensible that they produce some forms of cloth.

I think implementing something like this would enhance the new system by giving players more reasons to revisit specific ports for a special export and making some sought-after materials available to move certain stories along without waiting for special offers.

Best Regards,
TbE
edited by The bewildered Everyman on 12/17/2017
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Nanako
Nanako
Posts: 535

12/18/2017
Did you put an HTML table in a forum post?
That's pretty messed up, i can't delete it from a quote. You probably shouldnt do that :P

I agree that glass and munitions are important, they need specific export locations. Infact failbetter has mentioned (in the known issues page i think) that such things will get a consistent export location - in another star system.
Tea is not. Infact, i wrote a guide on how to exploit tea at port avon for infinite money http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1209534549&preview=true

Making tea not consistently purchaseable is one way of limiting the exploit. Not the way i would have gone personally, but it sort of works. You can do things in port avon by trading gossip, or just use whatever tea you happen to pickup from bargains - using tea there is still pretty profitable, moreso than directly selling it at market

L&S certainly are a manufacturer of various ship parts, but they're also an agricultural and scientific concern. The nature reserve is not a place to buy munitions. I suspect they'll have a factory near albion for that.

FWIW, albion content has been strongly hinted at for a long time, and i'd expect it in early 2018 (dont quote me on that though)

Yes magdalenes has lots of stained glass windows, that doesn't mean they should export it. They're an importer and consumer of stained glass. They don't produce anything, Economically, you export things that you produce in order to make a profit

Does carillon have any connection to chorister hives? I missed that, please tell more
Also, titania exporting literature is an excellent idea

Carillon exporting souls though, is not. Devils import and eat souls, and they never seem to have enough. I'm pretty against carillon selling souls, if anything that should be the place YOU go to sell souls to the devils

The circus, much like magdalenes, doesnt really produce any goods so i find it odd that it exports anything. But the exporting of bronzewood is explained in the shop - a local lumber company has an outlet there. Its kinda flimsy, but i guess there are some trees around

I agree with the overall concept of what you're thinking, the current selection of exports are somewhat arbitrary. But personally i'd like to not see places selling things they should be importing, and instead sell things that they actually produce locally (and don't consume)

--
Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it

http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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The bewildered Everyman
The bewildered Everyman
Posts: 3

12/18/2017
Hi Nanako,

I remember seeing you active around, well, every platform this game is discussed. I thought at first you were a community manager of some kind.

As I said, my suggestion is more of an idea for the time being (as I do not think that it is too much work to code what a shop sells) and switch it back later. More like a band-aid while they use the reach as an testing ground (also, it makes it easier to test certain ports). i will write more on the general ideas for the Economic system later.

In regards to the HTML-Table, you can delete it when you switch into the "source"-modus at the option to the right of the toolbar and just delete the code.

I am well aware of the Tea->Welcome->Vision->Sov->Tea abuse (having found it independently and used it for easier testing of some of the later content in some ports). But I think the main problem here is the repeatability and consistency of the Event in Port Avon that generates the Visions from Transfers. Putting it on a Date-Limit would likely end the problem.

For the rest, it's not like I have gone and said: "Which Export would be ideal for a given port?" but more the other way around of "I need this export somewhere, so what would be the port that is closest to the idea of the good". So it's naturally a bit forced.

Only thing I want to mention is the "Certain ports produce things the should import"-thing. I see it a bit different, in that the industry for a certain good will probably be near their biggest consumers.

So if you have Magdalenes with it's constant need for stained glass (I mean, you want to invest in additional rooms and have to maintain a full building with X windows and sometimes mentally ill patients...), it is just a logical step that a Glas manufacturer would be there. And when the demand in the local port is not as high as his production capacity, he will sell his surplus to skyfarers who dock. I mean that's literally a logical place to build a glas manufacture, so it's kind alike two lines of lore or something.

In regards to exporting souls, you could say that you sell a certain amount of your highest refinement to then use the money to buy more unrefined souls (If the refinement-process is cheaper to you than the prive differential between unrefined and refined souls you will get more souls in the end, eh?). Also, I vaguely remember that the Devils yous Bees in Punishments in Carillon. It seemed sensible, as the bees eat Ideas, as far as I know.

Best regards,

TbE
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Nanako
Nanako
Posts: 535

12/18/2017
The bewildered Everyman wrote:
Hi Nanako,

I remember seeing you active around, well, every platform this game is discussed. I thought at first you were a community manager of some kind.

a community manager, gosh. <3
I suppose i am rather active. I'm just an aspiring developer and a fan of failbetter's writing.

More like a band-aid while they use the reach as an testing ground (also, it makes it easier to test certain ports).

with regards to a bandaid for quest items, i'd personally rather see the return of the various shops in winchester. like the free bazaar. Before this trade patch, you could purchase almost anything in winchester, now you can only sell there. As it is a regional trade hub, i think we ought to be able to buy stained glass, crockery and ministry stamped literature from london at least

That said, for the former two, Port Prosper wouldn't be too bad a place either. Its an industrial town, focused on processing resources and exporting finished goods, so manufactured items like those would make some sense coming from prosper

But I think the main problem here is the repeatability and consistency of the Event in Port Avon that generates the Visions from Transfers. Putting it on a Date-Limit would likely end the problem.

i agree! that's pretty much the same as an airs mechanic. like, if you notice the port avon village green has different options every time you pick one, due to a quality that changes randomly. Something like that for the ruins would be good, although it'd need a bit more content to fill in other options too.

For the rest, it's not like I have gone and said: "Which Export would be ideal for a given port?" but more the other way around of "I need this export somewhere, so what would be the port that is closest to the idea of the good". So it's naturally a bit forced.

So if you have Magdalenes with it's constant need for stained glass , it is just a logical step that a Glas manufacturer would be there.

i sort of get what you mean, but i'd say magdalenes is too small. As ports go, it is pretty small. The whole place is a hospitality facility.
As a comparison, i don't think hotels typically have an inhouse tailor to repair and replace all the towels and quilts that they need. there are also a lot of glass buildings in winchester and prosper, stained glass is probably used there too (there's actually an event in port prosper where some urchins are selling stolen stained glass)

In regards to exporting souls, you could say that you sell a certain amount of your highest refinement to then use the money to buy more unrefined souls (If the refinement-process is cheaper to you than the prive differential between unrefined and refined souls you will get more souls in the end, eh?).

Hmm, that process is a bit ambiguous, i kind of got the impression that the work at carillon is more for the benefit of the humans, not sure how or if it would affect the taste of a soul. But still, why would they sell them? to humans, at least? The only place i'd see carillon exporting souls is to avid horizon, and on to the iron republic, ie: sending them home, in return for brass or whatever devils trade in. Souls aren't of much value to most humans, i don't think, its not a typical consumer good

Also, I vaguely remember that the Devils yous Bees in Punishments in Carillon. It seemed sensible, as the bees eat Ideas, as far as I know.

eating ideas? That sounds like the Lamplighter Bees, quite different from Chorister bees i believe. Lamplighter bees are the ones that produce prisoner's honey (and red honey)
I wonder why failbetter writers have such a fascination with apiculture. Perhaps someone is a hobbyist beekeeper Big Grin

--
Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it

http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Vivek Das Mohapatra
Vivek Das Mohapatra
Posts: 15

12/23/2017
Not sure if this is because I imported a procgen game but I've yet to see a prospect other than the initial training prospect with the "bla bla bla" filler text (which I could not accept anyway: greyed out UI button). Bargains all over the place, but no prospects.

Other than that I'd say bargains seem a little too common/profitable right now? And sometimes you get an affiliation bargain with the same item (and I think the same cost?) as a vanilla bargain - I suspect for game balance the vanilla bargains should have less of a profit margin, and the affilfiation bargains should be better (perhaps improving with affiliation rank).
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Vivek Das Mohapatra
Vivek Das Mohapatra
Posts: 15

12/23/2017
Ah, never mind the bit about prospects not appearing - after a while of scuttling round the reach they suddenly started turning up.
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shinyemptyhead
shinyemptyhead
Posts: 14

12/23/2017
I had the same issue, I think you needed to hit the next weekly cycle on the existing game for them to populate.
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Kalirren
Kalirren
Posts: 4

12/26/2017
I started a new game two nights ago, if it makes a difference. Don't know what the dev calendar is.

You should be able to buy anything at unattractively high price at New Winchester, as well as the major hubs. That's the whole point of big towns; you can find just about anything, but it's never at particularly attractive price.

Bargains do seem a bit too commonplace. Right now I find that I'm running around the Reach with no Prospects (I've fulfilled them all) and am still running into bargains left and right. Given that bargains live at places, but prospects are accepted and carried with you, I think the game would feel more mission-driven if Prospects were everywhere but you needed more luck to find bargains.
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Lord Vaustus
Lord Vaustus
Posts: 201

1/4/2018
This has probably already been noted, but sometimes you find a bargain selling the thing you need in the same port as the prospect, with the same items. Say, finding a man selling seeds at Ms. Magdalene's. It makes for an interesting experience, since on one hand I felt vaguely cheated out of the oppurtunity to search for the seeds, but on the other felt relieved I wouldn't have to scour every single port looking for them.

It feels like prospects and bargains are like gambles-you choose a prospect, hope you find the right bargain. The current experience tended a little more towards random trawler of the markets then steam train captain carefully plotting my voyages with knowledge in hand.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lord~Ivastus
The heartbroken hedonist
Pronounced "Lord vow-Stis".
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Lord Vaustus
Lord Vaustus
Posts: 201

1/4/2018
More thoughts on trading:

There's this interesting mix between what feels like two very different games
There's the exploration game, where I go around and look out for new and fascinating places, and then theres the trading game, where I try to shrewdly manage my resources and plot my course so I can maximize my options. What's interesting is how different the requirements for those two are- to use the exploration aspect, you have to, almost by definition, have no idea whats on the horizon, but to do the trading aspect, you have to have at least a vague idea of what's available where and what's wanted elsewhere.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lord~Ivastus
The heartbroken hedonist
Pronounced "Lord vow-Stis".
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The Articulate Ungulate
The Articulate Ungulate
Posts: 8

1/14/2018
I definitely like the expanded money-earning options. It feels like the difficulty in earning coin is now either just right or a bit too easy. I started getting caught up in the emergent complexity of trying to plan routes to best meet various Prospects and Bargains.

One thing I wish was present is a way to keep track of Bargains, not just Prospects. An in-game, 'let me jot an entry in my journal' option would be enough, and would avoid me breaking out of the story to switch to Notepad and make the same note.
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Leonora Rothwood
Leonora Rothwood
Posts: 17

1/28/2018
For me, Prospects feel too random and not frequent enough. The first time I played after they were released I got four at once, which was nice -- and then I died and my next captain has been hardly seeing any Prospects at all. Maybe it has to do with in-game time, but with no good way to keep track of time it's frustrating.

One thing I liked in Sunless Seas was the frequency of date-stamped messages -- they really helped give a sense of time passing! Of course a lot of those were "Fed the crew" alerts and the like which I think would quickly get annoying in the floating-text format, but even just little snippets of flavor text that show up every two or three in-game days could help add a sense of time passing and what life on a space locomotive is like immensely. I think I would be less frustrated every time I checked the Bazaar in New Winchester and found nothing if I knew in advance that nothing was likely to show up until after a certain date.

--
Leonora Rothwood, the Ink-Stained Wanderer
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A Parliament of Hounds
A Parliament of Hounds
Posts: 37

1/29/2018
Leonora Rothwood wrote:
One thing I liked in Sunless Seas was the frequency of date-stamped messages -- they really helped give a sense of time passing! Of course a lot of those were "Fed the crew" alerts and the like which I think would quickly get annoying in the floating-text format, but even just little snippets of flavor text that show up every two or three in-game days could help add a sense of time passing and what life on a space locomotive is like immensely. I think I would be less frustrated every time I checked the Bazaar in New Winchester and found nothing if I knew in advance that nothing was likely to show up until after a certain date.


Nothing particular to add, just wanted to say I very much agree with this. More floating text in general would be nice.
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Stelfish
Stelfish
Posts: 1

2/1/2018
I'm having an issue with prospects and wanted to check here to make sure I'm not making a silly mistake before issuing a bug report.

The prospect I've picked up requires 3 seeds. I bought 3 seeds, but the prospect still says "Still needed: 3" (another prospect asks for 3 souls, I bought one soul, it still says I need 3 more). When I return to Winchester bazaar I can't do anything--there's no option to turn in the prospect. As I said I think it's probably a bug but I wanted to check to make sure I'm not overlooking something simple.
edited by Stelfish on 2/1/2018
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Rakaposhi
Rakaposhi
Posts: 8

2/1/2018
Stelfish wrote:
I'm having an issue with prospects and wanted to check here to make sure I'm not making a silly mistake before issuing a bug report.

The prospect I've picked up requires 3 seeds. I bought 3 seeds, but the prospect still says "Still needed: 3" (another prospect asks for 3 souls, I bought one soul, it still says I need 3 more). When I return to Winchester bazaar I can't do anything--there's no option to turn in the prospect. As I said I think it's probably a bug but I wanted to check to make sure I'm not overlooking something simple.
edited by Stelfish on 2/1/2018



You need to deliver the goods for the Prospect to the port mentioned in the Prospect text. This will never be New Winchester (currently at least)
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Rakaposhi
Rakaposhi
Posts: 8

2/1/2018
I like the new Prospects and Bargains system on the whole. I'm reserving judgement on whether they make the game too easy until the prices for goods and services have been finalised (sure I heard somewhere that equipment prices are currently artificially low for test purposes)

My only bugbear at the minute is that bargains are not cleared down correctly. It's annoying to see 'Bargains Available!' and then when trying to interact with them, find out that actually they're not available

I believe there is a known issue in that if you purchase a similar bargain in another port, it won't actually be available in other ports. I'm also pretty sure that bargains that I have purchased in a port still continue to show as available too - even tho I bought them out the first time
edited by Rakaposhi on 2/1/2018
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Plynkes
Plynkes
Posts: 584

2/1/2018
I hope they don't adjust things too much in the way of making it more difficult to make money, as I quite like it how it is currently. I know Failbetter loves them some grind, but it is the one thing that puts me off their games. The reason I don't play Sunless Sea much any more, despite not having seen anywhere near all the story content, is that making progress is so slow. I get bored before I achieve my goals. I know some people want a challenge, but I don't want the challenge to be about fighting the urge to stop playing.

--
"Then tell Wind and Fire where to stop, but don't tell me."
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Rakaposhi
Rakaposhi
Posts: 8

2/1/2018
One problem with Prospects and Bargains I can forsee is that players will likely stockpile bargains in the bank until the relevant prospect shows up. As time passes and your wealth grows the player is likely to accumulate enough stock to fulfill any prospect at will. It's certainly what I've done in my time in the Reach (with the odd sale of bargains to New Winchester at regular prices when I've needed sovereigns for a new ship or the like)

At that point they don't seem any different than the 'Major Traders' who have the regular trading routes locked down - they have a warehouse full of stock and deliver it when requested. Scouring the region for bargains isn't necessary as they've picked all this stuff up previously on their travels.

A more dynamic system perhaps would be time limited offers that only show up for an in game day or two at random ports. Can you deliver x number of item y to port z. The player then has interesting choices to make:

Do I want to go out of my way?
Can I fit the entire order in my hold? If not, what can I ditch?
Can I afford the terror costs of extending my journey?
How dangerous is that area of space?
Is this going to enhance the standing of the tacketies or stovepipes? Will I sacrifice my morals for sovs if so?

I'd love to see the introduction of dangerous areas for player to visit, and of course safer zones. At the moment and from what I recall of Sunless Sea you can pretty much sail anywhere with impunity (tho sneaking past Mt Nomad always felt pretty epic in the starting ship)
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