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genesis
genesis
Posts: 908

6/11/2018
Do we know which of the three sisters is the youngest?

ETA: Presumably Phoebe, if we go with the Triple Goddess interpretation and she is the maiden
edited by genesis on 6/11/2018

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Aro Saren
Aro Saren
Posts: 41

6/11/2018
There's also a matter of sisters' maid - she could do it too, but who is she?

And what about first noman? The Snuffer progenitor was just a guess, you know?
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Von Darken
Von Darken
Posts: 39

6/11/2018
Sinnouk wrote:
genesis wrote:
Accepting that there is no single wholly convincing explanation for who hid the key in the well, what are the arguments against the sisters themselves? It's on their property, they know about it, they encourage you to retrieve it and it's very much *placed* in the well rather than just chucked it.
And then there's this sidebar snippet:
[spoiler]No one in London knows where this key is. Or at least, no one who knows is telling. And anyway, this doesn't stop them talking. They say that the one man who knew where it was just vanished one night, along with his boat. They say he was probably eaten by a zee-monster. They say that pirates might have scuppered him out of spite. Some of them say he had already hidden the key before he died. One or two of them say that he sold it to a mad king in Polythreme who gave it to his youngest daughter for safekeeping before being eaten by a Stone Pig. It's probably safe to discount those ones.[/spoiler]



If we take that king to be Hundreds, then surely he has only had one daughter, among his many sons. A daughter inscribed with words and poetry, who sails the zee and therefore could easily be in place to put ashore on a certain Keep and place a key in a well.

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Jaina
Jaina
Posts: 229

6/11/2018
The sidebar snippets are often not accurate. The King of a Hundred Hearts was most definitely not eaten by a Stone Pig - he is alive (too alive, really). Also, if that text were accurate, he would have at *least* one daughter, as you can't have a youngest daughter without having more than one.

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genesis
genesis
Posts: 908

6/11/2018
Sidebar snippets are rarely wholly accurate but many of them are very much intended to hide snippets of truth amid misdirection. In particular, the phrase "It's probably safe to discount those ones" suggests that a large part of preceding material is accurate, if disguised.

If the real story is such that (for example) "A man gave the key to a young woman who was not his bride. He hasn't been seen since but rumours have it he is now the king of Polythreme", it's easy to see how it could be morphed into this snippet.

I am not saying that this snippet *is* evidence but saying it's not wholly accurate misses that that's exactly where FBG have hidden a lot of lore in the past.

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xKiv
xKiv
Posts: 789

6/11/2018
Jaina wrote:
as you can't have a youngest daughter without having more than one.


This is contralogical! An only daughter is by definition both the youngest and the oldest daughter.
It just doesn't make sense to say it that way, if you are a normal-ish person, and also not misinformed yourself (i.e. "his youngest child, who was also his only daughter" could easily morph into "his youngest, daughter" and then "his youngest daughter" over generational game of telephone).

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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3207

6/11/2018
I don't think there's any indication that the Hundreds is related to the Hunter's Keep sisters, but since the rest of the snippet is clearly unimportant, the youngest sister could be the non-rumor part.

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nathan7
nathan7
Posts: 40

6/15/2018
So, I have not been able to read this entire discussion, but I understand most of the answers, however, I don't understand:
How do we know the manager is may?
How do we know the architect of the dawn machine is June?
and how do we know the thief of faces is the first noman?

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Sir Joseph Marlen
Sir Joseph Marlen
Posts: 557

6/16/2018
nathan7 wrote:

How do we know the manager is may?
How do we know the architect of the dawn machine is June?
and how do we know the thief of faces is the first noman?

If I recall correctly, the Manager was suspected of being May because of nods in The Calendar Code and his appearance in the text for the Revolutionaries Renown: 40 item. The title for the outcome text of reading May's book is "The madness of passion and tranquility and despair of separation." Along with madness being dropped into the text as a potential clue, his characterization writes him as a man who is both obsessed with his passion for his love of the King of a Hundred Hearts and despondent over the suffering and guilt it has caused him over the centuries. The text for May's book also describes old lovers with hearts of stone being separated by dark waters (all of which matches to the Manager's identity). And if the 40 Renown option doesn't describe the Manager as passionate yet despairing (ready to slaughter gods even if it won't make him happy, save his love from his hellish predicament, or revive the love between these separated lovers, yet still determined and mad enough to go through with it regardless), I don't know what does.

We know June created the Dawn Machine because burying the Council's secrets when using the Red-Feathered Pin item mentions how June made something that makes it harder for the Liberation of Night to occur. The Dawn Machine fits this well, literally usurping the rule of Law by bending reality with its own light; it's difficult to turn out the lights when one of your members has created an angry artificial star god, but it also fills the role of revolutionary goals, supplanting the natural order of reality with its own rules. Not exactly pro-Liberation, but potentially revolutionary in its own way.

Honestly, I'm unsure of where people are getting the Thief-of-Faces to be the first Noman. I answered that question with Mr Sacks, because he is quite literally the first Noman implemented by Failbetter, due to him originating from the first iteration of Sacksmas / Christmas in the Neath. Should anyone disagree, though, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
edited by Sir Joseph Marlen on 6/16/2018

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nathan7
nathan7
Posts: 40

6/17/2018
Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
nathan7 wrote:

How do we know the manager is may?
How do we know the architect of the dawn machine is June?
and how do we know the thief of faces is the first noman?

If I recall correctly, the Manager was suspected of being May because of nods in The Calendar Code and his appearance in the text for the Revolutionaries Renown: 40 item. The title for the outcome text of reading May's book is "The madness of passion and tranquility and despair of separation." Along with madness being dropped into the text as a potential clue, his characterization writes him as a man who is both obsessed with his passion for his love of the King of a Hundred Hearts and despondent over the suffering and guilt it has caused him over the centuries. The text for May's book also describes old lovers with hearts of stone being separated by dark waters (all of which matches to the Manager's identity). And if the 40 Renown option doesn't describe the Manager as passionate yet despairing (ready to slaughter gods even if it won't make him happy, save his love from his hellish predicament, or revive the love between these separated lovers, yet still determined and mad enough to go through with it regardless), I don't know what does.

We know June created the Dawn Machine because burying the Council's secrets when using the Red-Feathered Pin item mentions how June made something that makes it harder for the Liberation of Night to occur. The Dawn Machine fits this well, literally usurping the rule of Law by bending reality with its own light; it's difficult to turn out the lights when one of your members has created an angry artificial star god, but it also fills the role of revolutionary goals, supplanting the natural order of reality with its own rules. Not exactly pro-Liberation, but potentially revolutionary in its own way.

Honestly, I'm unsure of where people are getting the Thief-of-Faces to be the first Noman. I answered that question with Mr Sacks, because he is quite literally the first Noman implemented by Failbetter, due to him originating from the first iteration of Sacksmas / Christmas in the Neath. Should anyone disagree, though, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
edited by Sir Joseph Marlen on 6/16/2018





Thank you, those make sense to me! It is really hard to keep track of all the tiny lore details.
So I think I have the rigt answer for all except who hid the key in the well and maybe the noman one.

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Aro Saren
Aro Saren
Posts: 41

6/18/2018
Manager as may was all but said outright in either last Election investigations or 40 Renown Revolutionaries item storylet, cannot remember exactly.

There are references to Dawn Machine in Calendar Code museum, and it's said on Revolutionaries connection item, that after whatever June's buuilt, their work became even harder.
Though my bet actually was on December - they know Judgements personally and most likely has partaken of Red Science knowledge.

Thief-of-Faces as first Noman is entirely my decision - there was no concrete version at that time, and I decided mostly on a hunch, really. If you have any more plausible version, be sure to present it.
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3207

6/19/2018
The Manager is clearly affiliated with the Calendar Council, but iirc he might be October instead. Maybe.

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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 715

6/19/2018
Wyspr wrote:
The doors of the Bazzar have been rather difficult for me to find. The first four can be seen once you have a little star next to your name in Slowcake's, but I have no idea where to begin with the other three.


They are often found in side notes and they are fairly easy to google, too. Are we allowed to post direct answers here?

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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3207

6/20/2018
That question's been answered a few times already, so definitely.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Eskali
Eskali
Posts: 3

7/2/2018
Contributing my own theory on who put the key in the well.

[spoiler]

In the Nemesis ambition you have a honey dream of the following:
You dream. A garden. Thick, sweet musk and vibrant green. Roses grow where they may. A cluster of them are discussing Aristotle over the bones of a lion.
Over the garden, a rainbow arches down towards a pretty stream. Black waterwheels spin in the current.
The roses grow thickest near a table. An altar, perhaps. On the table lies a key carved from grey stone, with curved tines that could be tentacles or knives. The roses fall silent and turn to you. Are you taking the key from them? Do you need it as they do?


On the Unlikely Garden card in the Nadir you can ask a lady where the Rosers went and get: "Into lacre," she whispers. "Into the underpipes. Where even souls cannot survive. Leave me to my roses. Leave me to my roses!"


In a sidebar bit about the Stone Tentacle Key it says: No one in London knows where this key is. Or at least, no one who knows is telling. And anyway, this doesn't stop them talking. They say that the one man who knew where it was just vanished one night, along with his boat. They say he was probably eaten by a zee-monster. They say that pirates might have scuppered him out of spite. Some of them say he had already hidden the key before he died. One or two of them say that he sold it to a mad king in Polythreme who gave it to his youngest daughter for safekeeping before being eaten by a Stone Pig. It's probably safe to discount those ones.


So maybe the roses dream is a metaphor for the Rosers having the key at some point, mystery dude Roser gave the key to his youngest daughter before the Rosers went into lacre, the lacre is possibly keeping the Stone Pigs asleep so you could fancifully say he was eaten by a Stone Pig, and since all the girls of Hunter's Keep know where the key is hidden maybe they're the Roser dude's daughters, in which case Phoebe as the youngest would have hidden the key.
[/spoiler]
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Aro Saren
Aro Saren
Posts: 41

7/4/2018
I doubt sisters are daughters of someone from 4 City - they're from very obscure lineage of very long-lived star worshippers, their grandmother witnessed Descend of the Bazaar, while Rosers are affiliated with Finger-Kings and Parabola, antithesis of stars. But, who knows? After all, in all things look to love.

Though I don't protest about key in Rosers' possession at some time.
Do we know someone specific from Rosers? I can only recall a certain individual from beyond the looking-glass, what's his title in lore by the way, but is he Roser?
edited by Aro Saren on 7/4/2018
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Aniline
Aniline
Posts: 134

7/4/2018
Y'all who doubt the identity of May and June should go play The Calendar Code, it's a great story, and the facts are there in as close to plaintext as FL ever gets.

(It also reminded me of The Dreamhold. Basically, in a doc2vec model, The Calendar Code is The Dreamhold minus Myst plus a cat.)

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astranox
astranox
Posts: 120

7/4/2018
strange, the mysteries tab always gets covered for me when the page loads... (mobile browser)

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James Sinclair
James Sinclair
Posts: 166

7/5/2018
For the answer to "Who put the key in the well?", I'm leaning towards the maidservant. She's the only person that we actually see inside the well (other than the Thing that lives at the bottom), and when you're at Hunter's Keep, she follows your every move with malice in her eyes. You can find smoked opera glasses in her room, which you can take to help deal with the light that comes out of the well. The maidservant appears to be guarding the well and its contents, which include the key. Consider:

[spoiler]You push the wooden cover aside, averting your eyes as the light streams out, carrying a whirling cloud of white fireflies and frost-moths. Your smoked glasses protect you and let you peer down into the well. There at the bottom is the source of the light - a vast, humped, furred shape, quietly crouching. And hanging from a ledge halfway down, something else. Something with burning, molten yellow eyes. The maidservant. 'If you so much as put a finger in, she'll eat you in one gulp,' says a cheerful voice. Lucy. 'Here, I'll help you.'
...
An hour later, you're back. There's a modest amount of glim in the net. As you start to gather the net together, it snags on something just under the lip of the well. Something glints. So you take a chance. You throw a piece of glim into the well to distract whatever's in there, and grab for it. It's a stone key, with a nasty, organic shape to it. It must be what the sisters were pushing you to find.
...

You perch your smoked glasses on your nose, take a deep breath and push the cover off the well. As light floods out, you are enveloped in glowing white fireflies and frost-moths. They disperse slowly, so with the help of your glasses, you can peer into the well. Whatever's making the light is big. Very big. You can see a humped, furred shape at the bottom, light streaming from its sides. It's breathing: very slowly.

You lower the crook into the well and start to feel around its oily black sides. Its tip scrapes on the mossy brick, then hooks onto something. You start to pull. It's heavy. Really heavy.

Something fanged flies out at you, red eyes burning even in the faux-moonlight! Claws close around your neck. But you have kept hold of the crook, and you use it to fight off your attacker. Thump, thump, crack – and you're free. It's the maidservant. She hisses at you and growls, but she doesn't make a move. Eventually, she turns and disappears off into the shadows.

You try again, breathing heavily. Brass scrapes on brick. Then – a different clink. You look. There's a small bag suspended, just out of reach. You haul it up with your hook and open it to reveal a key. A stone key, with a nasty, organic shape to it. It must be what the sisters were pushing you to find.[/spoiler]

Considering Lucy's warning and the maid's violent reaction to your attempt at taking the key, I'd say that the maidservant is a strong candidate for the person who put it there, and guards it against all but the most determined seekers (who are occasionally, although not always, that kind of Seeker).

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Wines is red
Spices is yellow
But old Jack-of-Smiles
Is a murderous fellow
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Aniline
Aniline
Posts: 134

7/5/2018
Aro Saren wrote:
Let's check our lists then?

Only answers, order from browser version:
...
Virginia (or Feducci, not sure)


Feducci. They're looking for a particular echo from Five Minutes to Midday, which references a bearded dude "who you might know".

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