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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 1608

11 days ago
illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
Perhaps even more importantly, the hours of the temporal day are produced by the Sun, which seems like very strong evidence that it's something greater.

Temporal hours aren't produced by the Sun though, they're divisions of time that merely correspond to the Earth's rotation. Using the Gregorian system, tomorrow's 1 pm will be 1 pm regardless of what the sun does. You can have a perfectly fine 24 hour day, or a 30 hour day, without the sun. And while it might seem a little strange for the Sun to be a single Hour, universal features of the world like birth, hunger, and blood have their source/ruler in the Hour of the Red Grail. Birth, bleeding, and hunger don't just happen at 5 pm (the Hour of the Grail), so the duration of the material sun's light wouldn't be restricted either.

illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
If anything, I would expect the Sun to be that ruling power within the Glory, from which all the Hours are emanations.

The Hours seem to come from a variety of places, with only the gods-from-light descending from the Glory.

"GODS-FROM-LIGHT DESCEND."
"GODS-WHO-WERE-FLESH REMEMBER."
"GODS-FROM-STONE REMAIN."
"GODS-WHO-WERE-BLOOD CONSUME."
"GODS-FROM-NOWHERE; GODS-FROM NOWHERE."

My theory is that the Lantern, the Forge, the Heart, the Grail, the Moth, the Knock, and the Edge were the very first Hours to appear, hence why everything in the visible world, even other Hours, bears their imprint. Although I suspect that the Lantern was the first of the first, given that its also the principle of the Mansus. Being the principle of the Mansus gives the Lantern a fairly privileged position relative to the others and suggests it has some sort of seniority, you know?

illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
In terms of the nature of the Glory, I'd say it's basically a location, similar to the Wood, the Mansus, our reality, and nowhere. All of those allow plenty of room for debate as to whether they're really locations, of course, but they're in some sense analogous to locations, which is what matters.

Yeah, that makes sense...well, except for Nowhere being a location or analogous to one. There are some problems with that.
edited by Anne Auclair on 10/10/2017

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illuminati swag (Benthic)
illuminati swag (Benthic)
Posts: 45

11 days ago
Anne Auclair wrote:
illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
Perhaps even more importantly, the hours of the temporal day are produced by the Sun, which seems like very strong evidence that it's something greater.

Temporal hours aren't produced by the Sun though, they're divisions of time that merely correspond to the Earth's rotation. Using the Gregorian system, tomorrow's 1 pm will be 1 pm regardless of what the sun does. You can have a perfectly fine 24 hour day, or a 30 hour day, without the sun. And while it might seem a little strange for the Sun to be a single Hour, universal features of the world like birth, hunger, and blood have their source/ruler in the Hour of the Red Grail. Birth, bleeding, and hunger don't just happen at 5 pm (the Hour of the Grail), so the duration of the material sun's light wouldn't be restricted either.

Temporal hours are, in fact, generated by the sun. They're the divisions of the day, which is produced by the sun. It is noon when the sun is at its highest point, and everything else follows from that. If you have some better method for measuring the rotation of the earth, you can define it differently, but most people throughout history have not had a better method, so the sun is the easiest way to accurately define that. Obviously time zones don't necessarily match up exactly to that, but specifically defined time zones are a modern innovation and we shouldn't be surprised that regularizing things makes them not quite as accurate - that's a tradeoff for the other benefits of regularized time, which among other things include making it possible to have a well-defined time without making specific reference to the sun. Birth, bleeding, and hunger can't be used to define the day and the time of day.

illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
If anything, I would expect the Sun to be that ruling power within the Glory, from which all the Hours are emanations.

The Hours seem to come from a variety of places, with only the gods-from-light descending from the Glory.

"GODS-FROM-LIGHT DESCEND."
"GODS-WHO-WERE-FLESH REMEMBER."
"GODS-FROM-STONE REMAIN."
"GODS-WHO-WERE-BLOOD CONSUME."
"GODS-FROM-NOWHERE; GODS-FROM NOWHERE."

My theory is that the Lantern, the Forge, the Heart, the Grail, the Moth, the Knock, and the Edge were the very first Hours to appear, hence why everything in the visible world, even other Hours, bears their imprint. Although I suspect that the Lantern was the first of the first, given that its also the principle of the Mansus. Being the principle of the Mansus gives the Lantern a fairly privileged position relative to the others and suggests it has some sort of seniority, you know?

"Emanations" is a bit loose there. We don't really know that much about the Hours - they come from various places, but not all of them always had such power, and it's not clear where that power comes from. Maybe the Glory, maybe the Mansus, I don't know. Or maybe not all of them come from the Sun, and the ones which don't come from the sun come in some way from opposition to the Sun (in the way that night is opposite the sun). Either way, I'd say it's more likely that all of the Hours are defined by their relationship to the Sun than that the Sun is one of the Hours.


illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
In terms of the nature of the Glory, I'd say it's basically a location, similar to the Wood, the Mansus, our reality, and nowhere. All of those allow plenty of room for debate as to whether they're really locations, of course, but they're in some sense analogous to locations, which is what matters.

Yeah, that makes sense...well, except for Nowhere being a location or analogous to one. There are some problems with that.
edited by Anne Auclair on 10/10/2017

"Nowhere" being defined as "where the Gods-From-Nowhere come from on the map", which is analogous to a location by virtue of being on a map.
edited by illuminati swag (Benthic) on 10/11/2017
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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 1608

10 days ago
The Legacy system prototype in action.




Alexis: [H]ere's the legacy screen working! That's placeholder graphics in there; the card placement on game start is wonky; and you can't currently choose an existing card from your previous game, only a menu of starting options; but it's pulling content through from the content files and applying it meaningfully. I wanted to get it up and running ASAP so I could test out the content with the whole loop.

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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 1608

4 days ago
Alexis seems pretty busy with MACHEN, the legacy system, and brand new card art. I think there's a second live stream coming up in another week or two, but I can't remember the exact date?

illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
Temporal hours are, in fact, generated by the sun. They're the divisions of the day, which is produced by the sun. It is noon when the sun is at its highest point, and everything else follows from that. If you have some better method for measuring the rotation of the earth, you can define it differently, but most people throughout history have not had a better method, so the sun is the easiest way to accurately define that. Obviously time zones don't necessarily match up exactly to that, but specifically defined time zones are a modern innovation and we shouldn't be surprised that regularizing things makes them not quite as accurate - that's a tradeoff for the other benefits of regularized time, which among other things include making it possible to have a well-defined time without making specific reference to the sun. Birth, bleeding, and hunger can't be used to define the day and the time of day.

Hours are divisions of time that are applied to the day/night cycle and the movement of the sun. They aren't produced by the sun. If the sun went dark, our system of regularized time would keep working. If a person took up residence in an underground cave with no access to the sun's light, a system of 60 minute hours would still be a viable way of keeping track of time. An hour is an hour is an hour. Also, there are spare Hours which aren’t part of the normal 24 hour day. To me this all suggests that each individual Hour has a certain amount of independence and autonomy.

The fact that the 24 hours of mortal time are organized around the sun’s movements seems to me to be an “as above, so below” reflection of the Sun’s privileged position. As the Sun is the ruling Hour, everything is arranged around pleasing the Sun in its regular promenades through the Mansus, just as the mortal day is organized around the sun’s movement through the heavens. Or Versailles was organized around King Louis XIV. When we look at the kickstarter release description of the Mansus:

"BEHIND THE WORLD IS THE MANSUS."
"THE MANSUS IS THE FORTRESS OF HOURS."
"THE MANSUS IS THE HOUSE OF THE SUN."
"ITS CORRIDORS ARE THE ANGLES OF TIME."
"LIFE BEGINS IN THE MANSUS; MEMORY ENDS THERE."

It’s notable that the Mansus is the Fortress of the Hours before it is the House of the Sun. Its shared status takes precedence over its dominant power. If the Mansus was first and foremost the Sun’s place, then House of the Sun would be second, but Fortress of the Hours is second, indicating the Sun is an Hour. Next, the layout of the Mansus as “the angles of time” follows from the Sun’s mastery, as the Sun governs the apportionment of the corridors and when it travels through them. And from this Time is beget, among other things, the descent of souls into mortal bodies and their eventual return.
.
edited by Anne Auclair on 10/17/2017

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Clifton Royston
Clifton Royston
Posts: 76

3 days ago
I lean towards thinking that the Sun is something beyond and above the Hours, but if we keep arguing about it in the absence of more lore on this subject, we're going to end up burning each other as heretics before we know it.

And then won't we all feel silly if it turns out it's completely different from what any of us thought?

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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 1608

3 days ago
I suspect there might be three Suns: one in the Glory, one in the Mansus, and one in the World. Further evidence that there is a Sun among the Hours is the Sun's absence from the whole pyramid of fear:

"THE HOURS FEAR THE NAMES."
"THE NAMES FEAR THE LONG."
"THE LONG FEAR THE KNOW."
"ALL FEAR THE HOURS."

No one fears the Sun specifically, despite its power...because the Sun is an Hour.

cliftonr wrote:
...but if we keep arguing about it in the absence of more lore on this subject, we're going to end up burning each other as heretics before we know it.

Occultists don't burn each other over minor differences, they quibble endlessly over them and then form rival sects :P

Anyway, I think there are three distinct positions ^_^

1. The Transcendental God - the Sun is distinct from, and greater than, the Hours.

2. The Emanationist Chain - there are multiple Suns, an original that is greater than the Hours, an emanation among the Hours, and an emanation of the emanation that is less than the Hours.

3. The King Hour - the Sun is simply the most powerful Hour (for whatever reason).

cliftonr wrote:
And then won't we all feel silly if it turns out it's completely different from what any of us thought?

I'm pretty sure it's one of the above. For it to be anything else would go against what we already know.
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edited by Anne Auclair on 10/17/2017

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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 1608

3 days ago
I have some thoughts on what the Journey in a Window dream can tell us about fate, mortality, the Grail, the Sun-in-Rags, the Glorious Sun, and maybe even the Witch-and-Sister.

A Journey in a Window wrote:
A dream: the stained glass of a my life, in a series of windows. Here I'm born, pink and appalling. Over there, I'll die. The sunlight slants to brighten the white boards of the floor with colour. Elsewhere they're pale as bone. A curious dreamer might lift them. Most would examine their life in windows.

They've shown my birth in the red church and my death where the woods turn white. The longer I look at the panes between, the brighter the sun. [gives you Contentment (Lantern and Heart)]

In this dream the protagonist catches a glimpse of her fate, which appears to have been unalterably planned out from on high. Their life begins with birth in the "red church" of the Red Grail and ends in a white woods, which might symbolize the Sun-in-Rags (death is an ending and in both depictions of the ragged sun there are snow covered trees in the background - a woods turned white). Red is the color of life, which is also defined by blood and hunger (for one to live one must bleed and eat). White is the color of death: the Sun-in-Rags is surrounded by snow banks, snow covered trees, and sun bleached skulls; the dead enter the Mansus through the White Door; and the floorboards that the protagonist entombs themselves under in Hersault's Nightmare are likewise bone white. The events between the red start and the white ending are obscured by the sun's light, preventing the protagonist from deciphering their fate. However, this same light dazzles and attracts the dreamer while hiding the true nature of the floor ("most would examine their life in windows"). The experience leaves the dreamer feeling contented, at peace with a fate that has remained largely hidden from them.

All in all, the Journey in a Window is a very deceptive dream. It promises you more than it delivers and leaves you feeling that you received more than you actually got. While the Red Cup might be the start, the Sun-in-Rags the end, and all the other Hours parts in-between, the Sun presides over the whole process, illuminating, blessing and obscuring. We don't even know how absolute this fate is; the Sun's rays might hide the journey so as prevent the dreamer from learning about and escaping their fate, but the intent could just as easily be to hide changes, disputes, and panels that are 'to be determined' and thereby give a more omnipotent impression of the Powers That Be.

Finally, as fate begins with birth in the red church, this provides one possible explanation for why the Grail/Mother of Ants influenced Church of St Agnes has a problem with the Witch-and-Sister.

Vavakx Nonexus wrote:
Worth adding that the Red Grail also oversees birth:

WHAT IS BELOW CAN'T ESCAPE WHAT IS ABOVE (power ending) wrote:
The Red Grail is the Hour of blood and of birth. It has touched me, and I've gained a little of its power. If I had more time, I could draw disciples to me; grow fierce with blood and delight; be the herald of a new age; use that power to ascend to a secret throne, one day.

The Orchid Transfigurations wrote:
“We must devour to be devoured. We cannot be undevoured, as we cannot be unborn.” (I know it's only a passing reference, but it links birth and consumption, the hour's main other theme, together.

This becomes particularly interesting considering the fact that the Witch-and-Sister's titular Witches,

Addendum excised from Sir William Colt Hoare’s Hints to Travellers in Italy, 1815. wrote:
On the matter of the witches. They are seen in dreams, particularly when one dreams before a cracked and uncovered mirror. On nights of the greater moon they arise from the lake and generate unwanted multiple births, inspire follies of passion, and blend flesh to flesh. The locals turn for protection to St Agnes, but I have seen that they also make poppets – of two heads and four arms – to placate the lake-witches.

Are, as stated above, known to cause multiple births, perhaps inflicting a condition similar to the Witch-and-Sister's depiction on the tarot card?

If the Red Grail is indeed connected to the Church of St Agnes and the Serpent, this could illustrate some of the differences between the Red Grail's and the Witch-and-Sister's takes on childbirth, love, lust and other such matters.

The beef with the Witch-and-Sister might be that these nocturnal, moon-lit episodes of twin propagation screw up fate, by dividing one soul into two people. The life that was planned out for a full soul in a single person no longer applies. Instead, the fate has to be divided, along with flesh and soul...but who gets what? And when you have identical or Siamese twins, who is to say fate won't get confused? Which one is the Witch and which one is the Sister?
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edited by Anne Auclair on 10/18/2017

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Edward Warren
Edward Warren
Posts: 45

3 days ago
I've been thinking about the Red Grail lately. I don't know if its my own admittedly ravenous appetite or my more... interesting experiences in Sunless Sea, but there's something about the blood god that intrigues me greatly. This is mainly speculation on my part, but after analyzing the few snippets we have about it I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this particular Hour is an enemy of the Long.

We know that the Long are altering history towards an unknown end, creating and re-creating histories with the help of the Forge of Days. We also know that something about the Port of Noon can cause people to be forgotten. Additionally we know that the Long punish those that interfere with their affairs with "excisement", essentially altering history so that they never existed. This fate is probably shared with all the people that lived in the previous histories whenever the Forge creates a new timeline. I doubt the god of birth is pleased with lesser beings making it so that people were never born. If someone wasn't born, they cannot be eaten, can they?

The Orchid Transfigurations wrote:
“We must devour to be devoured. We cannot be undevoured, as we cannot be unborn.”
That which has been devoured cannot be undevoured, as they had to have existed in order to have been eaten in the first place.The Hours are not inherently evil. While the Red Grail's desire to devour might make it one of the more dangerous Hours, it might not be inherently malicious. If the Long see excisement as a punishment, the following line could be read like a reassurance, a promise that the Grail will keep one's memory alive.

web prototype victory text wrote:
"Here am I, alone on the night of my victory, my end. The Grail has opened its mouth. It will not forget my savour. It will not forget."


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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 1608

2 days ago
Edward Warren wrote:
We know that the Long are altering history towards an unknown end, creating and re-creating histories with the help of the Forge of Days. We also know that something about the Port of Noon can cause people to be forgotten. Additionally we know that the Long punish those that interfere with their affairs with "excisement", essentially altering history so that they never existed. This fate is probably shared with all the people that lived in the previous histories whenever the Forge creates a new timeline.

It's a bit more complicated than that. The actions of all the Hours shape reality, not just the Forge.

CS Kickstarter wrote:
The history we know arises from the struggles of the secret gods called the Hours: the Sun-in-Rags, the Red Grail, the Mother of Ants, the Witch-and-Sister, the Lionsmith...

The Orchid Transfigurations, on the South Coast wrote:
Firstly, the town named on the postcard doesn’t exist on any map of the UK. This is unnerving, but it’s to be expected. The Histories diverge much more recently than 1927, and it’s not surprising that a minor urban centre would be out of luck in the Hours’ consensus.

It's also primarily the Hours that make the Histories. To the extant that the Long shape the Histories, it's apparently in allying with certain patron Hours and somehow shifting the consensus or balance of power in a favorable way (dramatically so, in some cases). Presumably the player character will be able do stuff like this too.

I 100% agree with this though:

Edward Warren wrote:
I doubt the god of birth is pleased with lesser beings making it so that people were never born. If someone wasn't born, they cannot be eaten, can they?

The Orchid Transfigurations wrote:
“We must devour to be devoured. We cannot be undevoured, as we cannot be unborn.”
That which has been devoured cannot be undevoured, as they had to have existed in order to have been eaten in the first place.The Hours are not inherently evil. While the Red Grail's desire to devour might make it one of the more dangerous Hours, it might not be inherently malicious. If the Long see excisement as a punishment, the following line could be read like a reassurance, a promise that the Grail will keep one's memory alive.

web prototype victory text wrote:
"Here am I, alone on the night of my victory, my end. The Grail has opened its mouth. It will not forget my savour. It will not forget."

A kind of immortality is definitely the subtext of the Grail's offer.
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edited by Anne Auclair on 10/19/2017

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