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The age of Stone, and the Capering Relicker. Messages in this topic - RSS

GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 113

5/20/2017
As some of you might remember, I posted about how the Capering Relicker was Utnapishtim, aka Noah of the Ark. Stone is young, around 5,000 years. Utnapishtim, or Tim, is around 12,000 years old, because the Flood was probably the Ice Age ending. Yes, the eccentric man with a mossy cart is older than Stone. I do not know how old the Bazaar is, but Tim might be older than it.
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 2786

5/20/2017
The Capering Relicker is immortal thanks to Hesperidean Cider, which he invented at the time of the First City's fall. So yeah, 12 thousand years old seems a bit unlikely.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles or Affluent Photographer requests; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.

PM me for hints enigmatic or fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 113

5/20/2017
It does seem a bit unlikely, but the Epic of Gilgamesh does state that Utnapishtim is Noah.
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John Moose
John Moose
Posts: 261

5/20/2017
I'm pretty sure Stone predates the first city, although it's pretty impossible to say by how much. We know the sun experimented with reproducing with the Bazaar and hid the result in Neath, and later sent Bazaar on its mission, but with stars and spacecrabs the timescale could be in the thousands of years like the other events of FL, or it could be that the events since the 1st city have been an action packed spurt on star-timescale and that Stone was chucked down when dinosaurs still roamed the earth.

Also, there's quite a difference between saying that 1st city characters were inspired by the Epic of Gilgamesh, and saying that they are those characters - for example, the Manager and Hundreds' story certainly has parallels with Gilgamesh and Enkidu, but the events themselves are completely different. We know the Capering is older than the Manager, that devils fear him, and that he was the first to make Hesperidean Cider, and that's pretty much it. We certainly don't know that he's Noah.

Besides, unless his immortality is from some source we've never heard of instead of the Hesperidean stuff he's famous for making, it'd be rather odd for him to predate Stone since Hesperidean Cider seems to be pretty strongly linked to Stone, after all.
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GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 113

5/20/2017
Here's a link to my post about this. https://www.reddit.com/r/fallenlondon/comments/683b6n/spoilersthe_identity_of_the_capering_relicker/ The bits of evidence just click together...
edited by GoingFTL on 5/20/2017
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Anchovies
Anchovies
Posts: 400

5/20/2017
John Moose wrote:
Also, there's quite a difference between saying that 1st city characters were inspired by the Epic of Gilgamesh, and saying that they are those characters - for example, the Manager and Hundreds' story certainly has parallels with Gilgamesh and Enkidu, but the events themselves are completely different. We know the Capering is older than the Manager, that devils fear him, and that he was the first to make Hesperidean Cider, and that's pretty much it. We certainly don't know that he's Noah.
I definitely agree with you here. It's important to keep in mind that although on a meta-story level certain characters are based on figures from past human mythology, within the setting of the game it's the other way around - the Neath, Parabola, and certain FL characters/items are the 'truth' behind certain legends from Surface cultures.

--
Perhaps our role on this planet is not to worship God — but to create Him.
—Sir Arthur C Clarke

Lionel Anchovies. Most social actions welcome. Always open to some delicious roleplaying. Please no betrayals, photographer, or lethal sparring. My Time, the Healer arrives on Saturdays at 14:30 GMT
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crazyroosterman
crazyroosterman
Posts: 187

5/20/2017
wait the capering relicer is THAT OLD?! is this there a persific story line were this is alluded?.
to or is it deducion from the writing on his card (keeping mind that ive never seen his dialogue for the rubbery murders and daughter)
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GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 113

5/21/2017
Dudeced by the fact that the Manager calls him uncle, and in the Epic of Gilgamesh, Utnapishtim is Gilgamesh's great-times-how many uncle, and then the biblical Flood being the end of the ice age.
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 2786

5/21/2017
GoingFTL wrote:
Dudeced by the fact that the Manager calls him uncle, and in the Epic of Gilgamesh, Utnapishtim is Gilgamesh's great-times-how many uncle, and then the biblical Flood being the end of the ice age.

That really seems like a huge stretch to me, with so many leaps of logic:

1. The Manager is not just based on Gilgamesh, but literally is Gilgamesh
2. The Manager calling the Relicker 'uncle' means the Relicker is an actual, genetically-related uncle of Gilgamesh
3. The Relicker is this specific uncle, and invented Cider despite already being immortal (and even telling Gilgamesh to stop looking for immortality in the Epic)
4. Because the Relicker is the protagonist of a flood myth very similar to the biblical one, he must literally be Noah, rather than other explanations making the two characters distinct (one story stole ideas from the other, similar by coincidence, similar because of long-lost storytelling cliches, etc)
5. The biblical flood is the end of the ice age, so it must have happened in that real-life time period, even though by biblical dating the story would then take place before the universe was even created
6. These FL characters are not only the characters from the Epic of Gilgamesh, but never deviate from the Epic's canon

Given his interaction with the Manager, it makes sense that the Capering Relicker is also based on a character from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Relicker being based on Utnapishtim is a great catch, and the Relicker inventing Cider from apples tied to Stone nicely mirrors Tim's immortality bestowed by the gods. But it just doesn't make sense for the two to be literally the same individual, even without mixing the fictional characters with real-life chronology.

(Also, where did Stone being 5,000 years old come from? I wasn't aware we had any indication of her age.)

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles or Affluent Photographer requests; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.

PM me for hints enigmatic or fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 113

5/21/2017
Being a monster hybrid does not exactly insure your survival in the High Wilderness. Why not put her in a place safe from the other Judgements? And yes, it was a huge stretch of logic, but I got there.
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John Moose
John Moose
Posts: 261

5/21/2017
Optimatum sums up very well the issues I have with the claim, and indeed the Capering-Utnapishtim connection is a great find and as a fan of all things First City I'm very grateful to you for making it. I think discussion on this theory and the analogies that can be drawn is really cool, I just think you're overreaching by saying it's proven and certain that Capering is Utnapishtim/Noah and so on.

The 5000 years comes from that being around how long ago the First City was brought down by the Bazaar, which might or might not be the time when Bazaar itself descended. However, the Presbyterate has been down here "far longer" than the Bazaar.
[spoiler]
The rough timeline is :1. Stone is born 2. Bazaar is sent on a mission 3. The answer is no 4. Bazaar hides in the Neath.
Sure the Bazaar could have spent all that time carrying Stone with it in space, but it would seem to make more sense that Stone was hidden in the Neath already at the time of its birth. The Neath is referenced somewhere as the place where the Sun hides its shames, so it might be that Neath itself was carved out by the Sun as a hiding place for Stone. Thus, Stone seems to be older than 5000 years, but it's hard to know whether that's by a thousand years or a million years.[/spoiler]
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GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 113

5/21/2017
Ah. Well, at least half my statement is true. Had no clue that existed. And he's not literally Noah. I 'Noah' that.
edited by GoingFTL on 5/21/2017
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