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The location of Fallen London Messages in this topic - RSS

GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 50

4/11/2017
I have found that Fallen London is not below Italy. Comparing the only 2 things we are 100% sure of the location, The Cumean Canal being below Naples, and Varchas being below Angkor Wat, we find that Fallen London is under Germany, and east of its location on the surface, and not southeast.
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BlabberingMat
BlabberingMat
Posts: 297

4/11/2017
Cumean Canal is not below Naples, though. We travel to the Naples once on the Surface, but we emerge at Avernus

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Matija%20Milošević


"And she held her sword, and she smiled like a knife.”

Finally, I am Crooked Cross! Feel free to send invitations for Salon!
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phryne
phryne
Posts: 762

4/11/2017
Beware the treachery of maps.

--
Eva May Canning, a Scarlet SaintLady Orosenn, a Monster-HunterPhryne Amarantyne, changed...
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GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 50

4/11/2017
It's like... Right next to Naples.
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Aberrant Eremite
Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 114

4/11/2017
I'm with phryne. I'm not even certain that the Neath is exactly in the same space-time as the Surface. I'm pretty sure that this cavern is geologically impossible wherever you put it.

--
Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Bohemian socialite and scandalous author. Still talks like a newly arrived Longshanks, only now she has better clothes.
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John Moose
John Moose
Posts: 183

4/11/2017
I recall an offhand comment by someone from FBG or somesuch statement that the Unterzee is roughly the size of Europe. (Someone bored can feel free to make calculations on how many days it takes from corner to corner in SS and the typical speeds of steam ships from 19th century.) But yeah, I'm with phryne as well; Neath is where linear geography goes to die.

--
Gone. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/John Moose
A doctor with aspirations beyond his station, as well as an apiary enthusiast http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Noah Rache
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Pumpkinhead
Pumpkinhead
Posts: 354

4/11/2017
Considering Karakorum and London are in roughly the same position in the Neath and assuming they fell straight down, the only explanation is that "location" is something that doesn't apply to the Neath. As phryne said, treachery of maps.

--
McGunn is open to social actions, although his plant isn’t fighting and he doesn’t really need to see the affluent photographer anymore.
Amanda Albright is a *spoiler* now. It’s what she always wanted. Follow your dreams, folks, and maybe you can be a *spoiler* too.
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 189

4/11/2017
Pumpkinhead wrote:
assuming they fell straight down, the only explanation is that "location" is something that doesn't apply to the Neath.

But that assumption doesn't match what we know. It is not said that London fell into the ground, but that London was "carried away by bats." Now precisely how a cloud of bats can lift up and deposit a city, I don't know, no more than I know if the former site of London is a crater or a blank space or or a sign saying "Mr. Firez wuz here." However, it does rather imply aerial transportation, at least during the first leg of the Fall, and that means that its path to the Neath could be anywhere.

As to the Cumaean Canal, Lake Avernus is in the immediate vicinity of Naples, so that's a non-issue. Did London take the Canal in its lapsarian adventure? Unknown, as far as I know; I don't even know that we have information about its size and whether that would be possible. That said, it is worth noting that the Second and Third Cities, at least, would not have taken that route; I think that a flying Karakorum would have made some impression in Europe had it gone to ground in Italy. So this leads to the (admittedly unprovable) conclusion that other routes into and out of the Neath exist beyond our familiar route into Europe.

Aberrant Eremite wrote:
I'm not even certain that the Neath is exactly in the same space-time as the Surface.

I'm going to challenge this, actually. One of the key qualities of the Neath is that it is shielded from certain celestial influences by being beneath the skin of our own little planet. That ties the Neath's nature to a direct geographical relationship with the Surface. (This does not, however, obviate Mr. Moose's observation that the Neath "is where linear geography goes to die." Even setting aside the plentiful records of zailors, the ability of certain parties to create new Laws is itself an argument against assuming the Neath is at all subject to Euclid.)

--
Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
Posts: 1544

4/11/2017
And in the recent story about the Lighthearted Polymath, [spoiler]it was mentioned that to open up a hole in the roof of the Neath as she contemplated, a Surface city would die.[/spoiler] That statement would support the idea that the Cumaean Canal is near Naples. Though I acknowledge that Germany has many cities not too far apart from one another, so the Neath could lie beneath Germany.
edited by cathyr19355 on 4/11/2017

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Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/cathyr19355

Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond
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Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
Posts: 1544

4/11/2017
Aha. Maybe the Cumaean Canal is near Naples after all. I just looked at my main character's Journal, where she recorded her observations during her conversation with the Lighthearted Polymath in the ES I talked about.

[spoiler]"London returned to her stars"

Scarlet strands web the wall. Several pin the sketch of the Seal. You follow a strand: an enigmatic formula hypothesises that only celestial material may bear the Seal. Another strand leads to schematics for fitting celestial glass into an observatory telescope in the Roof.

Threads to a pinned treatise on Red Science and the cleaving of matter. A memorandum titled 'The Restoration of Heaven,' surrounded by topographical charts. Naples is circled in red ink. As the Roof parts, the ground beneath the Surface city will be no more. The city shall be collateral.

London will once again be able to see the sun and the stars. And the new law forged in Hell should — theoretically — protect them from the deleterious effects of sunlight on Neath-dwellers.[/spoiler]

--
Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/cathyr19355

Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond
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BlabberingMat
BlabberingMat
Posts: 297

4/11/2017
We do know that Cumean Canal came to be after the Fall of London, as it is mentioned in SS that it was made by collaboration of Masters and London, as well as some players on the Surface
edited by BlabberingMat on 4/11/2017

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Matija%20Milošević


"And she held her sword, and she smiled like a knife.”

Finally, I am Crooked Cross! Feel free to send invitations for Salon!
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 189

4/11/2017
Catherine Raymond wrote:
Maybe the Cumaean Canal is near Naples after all.

Given that Cumae is only a few miles from Naples, this is a certainty. (The Cumaean Canal, by the way, is a reference to the Aeneid. Aeneas goes to Cumae to visit the Sibyl. She and Aeneas then visit the underworld via Avernus, which besides being a lake in Italy is also one of the five rivers of Hades.)

The Polymath's plans do not necessarily mean that London lies directly underneath Naples (we have no idea how long the Canal is or its internal geography, although the fact it can be traveled hints that it is at least not a vertical shaft). It does however mean that she intends to use the Canal as the exit route for London, and this does not bode well for the Neapolitans come Sunless Skies. Get your street pizza while you can, people!

--
Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
Posts: 1544

4/11/2017
Siankan wrote:
Catherine Raymond wrote:
Maybe the Cumaean Canal is near Naples after all.

Given that Cumae is only a few miles from Naples, this is a certainty. (The Cumaean Canal, by the way, is a reference to the Aeneid. Aeneas goes to Cumae to visit the Sibyl. She and Aeneas then visit the underworld via Avernus, which besides being a lake in Italy is also one of the five rivers of Hades.)

The Polymath's plans do not necessarily mean that London lies directly underneath Naples (we have no idea how long the Canal is or its internal geography, although the fact it can be traveled hints that it is at least not a vertical shaft). It does however mean that she intends to use the Canal as the exit route for London, and this does not bode well for the Neapolitans come Sunless Skies. Get your street pizza while you can, people!


I am in agreement with you, sir, except perhaps with regard to your comments about Naples. The quote from the ES clearly indicates that the ground beneath Naples will collapse if the Polymath's plan comes to fruition: [spoiler] "A memorandum titled 'The Restoration of Heaven' surrounded by topographical charts. Naples is circled in red ink. As the Roof parts, the ground beneath the Surface city will be no more. The city shall be collateral." [/spoiler] Emphasis in the spoilerized quote supplied by me.
edited by cathyr19355 on 4/11/2017

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Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/cathyr19355

Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 2234

4/11/2017
Siankan wrote:
That said, it is worth noting that the Second and Third Cities, at least, would not have taken that route; I think that a flying Karakorum would have made some impression in Europe had it gone to ground in Italy. So this leads to the (admittedly unprovable) conclusion that other routes into and out of the Neath exist beyond our familiar route into Europe.

There's definitely other routes to the Neath outside the Canal. There's very occasional mentions of the Travertine Spiral in FL, though as a route for foot/wagon traffic it's unlikely that a city could go that way. There's also the hole in the roof over Aestival; we don't know when it was formed so it very well could have been around when other cities arrived.
Siankan wrote:
The Polymath's plans do not necessarily mean that London lies directly underneath Naples (we have no idea how long the Canal is or its internal geography, although the fact it can be traveled hints that it is at least not a vertical shaft). It does however mean that she intends to use the Canal as the exit route for London, and this does not bode well for the Neapolitans come Sunless Skies. Get your street pizza while you can, people!

The Canal is highly unlikely to be the exit route. Not only do the Polymath's notes describe the Roof parting, but the Canal is described in SS as primarily made by the Surface nations. While the Masters might well be able to make a tunnel large enough for a city, I doubt that human engineers would go to that much trouble if they didn't have to. Plus I suspect the Polymath would choose the most direct path possible, rather than one horizontal enough for a ship to traverse.
edited by Optimatum on 4/11/2017

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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman

PM me for hints enigmatic or fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Aberrant Eremite
Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 114

4/11/2017
But if London is beneath Naples, then much of the Neath is below the Mediterranean, no? So we have a cave located a mile beneath the surface of a mile-deep sea. An air-bubble the size of Europe, under all that water. I repeat, geologically impossible!

Anyway, my thinking is that the cave roof doesn't protect the Neath directly from the sun, but rather protects it by containing the Irrigo radiations of the Cave of the Nadir.

In some sense, London may be a mile under Naples. But it won't be so in the ordinary way.

--
Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Bohemian socialite and scandalous author. Still talks like a newly arrived Longshanks, only now she has better clothes.
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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 1838

4/11/2017
I think that irrigo theory is confirmed somewhere, but I can't remember where.

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A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Aberrant Eremite
Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 114

4/11/2017
I think I got it from the I'm a Candle blog.

--
Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Bohemian socialite and scandalous author. Still talks like a newly arrived Longshanks, only now she has better clothes.
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Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
Posts: 1544

4/11/2017
Aberrant Eremite wrote:
But if London is beneath Naples, then much of the Neath is below the Mediterranean, no? So we have a cave located a mile beneath the surface of a mile-deep sea. An air-bubble the size of Europe, under all that water. I repeat, geologically impossible!

Anyway, my thinking is that the cave roof doesn't protect the Neath directly from the sun, but rather protects it by containing the Irrigo radiations of the Cave of the Nadir.

In some sense, London may be a mile under Naples. But it won't be so in the ordinary way.


Perhaps most of the Neath extends northwards from Naples (i.e., it's been flipped 180 degrees from England's orientation in Europe) and thus most of the Neath lies under the European continental mass. That might explain the random FBG remark reported elsewhere in this thread that the Neath takes up about as much area as Europe.

--
Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/cathyr19355

Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond
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Aberrant Eremite
Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 114

4/11/2017
So NORTH is actually ... West? Like, all the Seeking people are doing a hellish underground version of the pilgrimage to Santiago? (Isn't London on the Western edge of the Sunless Sea?)

--
Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Bohemian socialite and scandalous author. Still talks like a newly arrived Longshanks, only now she has better clothes.
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GoingFTL
GoingFTL
Posts: 50

4/11/2017
180 degrees is South. And anyways, the Cumean Canal is in the middle of Europe, so that would not really change anything.
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