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Early persuasion progress rubs me wrong [Spoilers] Messages in this topic - RSS

Mad_Scientist
Mad_Scientist
Posts: 3

3/16/2017
Very mild spoilers here for the early "making your name stuff" for Persuasion.

So, after a long, long hiatus, I decided to get back into this game. I never progressed all that far the first time, so I decided to just remake my account and start over from scratch again. And I've been very appreciative of some of the changes, in particular the "Name signed in..." method of story progress now replacing stat based progress. Now I can take as much time to fully explore the options at each stage without worrying about my stats accidentally getting too high.

BUT: I have an annoyance with the requirements to progress in Name Signed with a Flourish. In order to reach lvl 2 in this, I have to have an affair with either a heiress or a jewel thief. Those are, as far as I can tell, literally the only options to progress the story.

Meanwhile, I've been attempting to convince a struggling artist's model of my love. So, literally the only way to progress is to... cheat on the person I've been trying to convince that my desires are genuine?

Yeah, I get that once you succeed in convincing her, you find out she's stealing secrets, and are forced to end the relationship, at least temporally, but I'd forgotten that and so the timing of the storylett irked me a bit. And just in general, forces a romantic affair to progress seems rather limiting from a roleplaying perspective.

It just seems kind of weird to me that there isn't an alternative way to get this up to 2. Anyone else agree, or am I the only one?
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 304

3/16/2017
I have to say I'm with you on this. My main character has all the romantic soul of a coal cellar, and though I spent some time with the heiress, it felt out of character. I wouldn't mind on my other character, but not having a choice except "woo the heiress" or "never progress in the chief persuasive storyline" was not something I was pleased with.

There is not, to my knowledge, a way around that problem, unless you feel like RPing in your head some falling out, a rebound relationship that doesn't work out, and patching things up with your ex. The cards won't help you with it, alas.

On the bright side, though this isn't the only romantic relationship ahead for persuasive folk such as yourself, the later episode can be gotten around, should you desire.

--
Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Jermaine Vendredi
Jermaine Vendredi
Posts: 315

3/16/2017
Mad_Scientist wrote:
It just seems kind of weird to me that there isn't an alternative way to get this up to 2. Anyone else agree, or am I the only one?


No, you're not the only one. In fact, it's a complaint that comes up fairly regularly and some people are bothered by it. (Same applies to the Lost Daughter fate story).
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Aberrant Eremite
Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 130

3/16/2017
I'm also struggling with this at the moment. The Bellicose Prelate is a clergyman and a Campaigner for the Church. Persuasive is a key stat for him, but the romantic plotlines don't fit his character. I'm rationalizing it as recalling something from the character's past, before he received his Vocation.

--
Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Bohemian socialite and scandalous author. Still talks like a newly arrived Longshanks, only now she has better clothes.
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HiramCunningham
HiramCunningham
Posts: 7

3/17/2017
It's just something you'll have to get used to I'm afraid. I was ok with my first character being a degenerate bohemian and poet, but didn't love having to become a master thief, personally. I'm pretty sure they do this on purpose because that's the story they are trying to tell--one of morally murky rakes, rogues, deviants, and murderers. I also think they are fairly aggressive about this in order to get the idea out of your head that you are playing YOUR character, and not being told a story within certain constraints.

Spoiler alert: If your char isn't bisexual yet, get ready to be, lol!
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Cryptix23
Cryptix23
Posts: 30

3/17/2017
I have a habit of just... ignoring the actual text and handwaving a lot of things, personally, for RP purposes. My main account was far past those romances but recently finished up the Court romances, where I just decided to treat them as platonic, one-way fascinations given that she's an oblivious ace whose heart lies elsewhere. She also was forced to reject both the Thief and Model for similar reasons, and as far as I'm concerned the 'rejections' were far less heartless than the text claimed. I just find a different way to justify how she got to the needed result.

Still, that kind of thing might not work for everybody, and it is occasionally irksome when the only way to progress is to go against your character.

--
Prone to occasionally disappear for weeks at a time.

Lady 23; the Magnanimous Midnighter, self-styled detective vigilante. Extraordinary Mind. Loves boxed cats.
The Aluminum Eagle; grumpy bandaged hobgoblin with entirely too many dogs. Shattering Force.
Threnody Lament; charmingly ruthless. No suspicious loitering.
Carrion Crow; Seeker of the Name. Cares little for safety or sanity.

All characters accepting calling cards and social actions except as noted. Follow their adventures here
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DrMoriviri
DrMoriviri
Posts: 67

3/17/2017
While I certainly understand your point, I think it's a necessary trade-off for the kind of game FL is. RP is great, but Failbetter is ultimately triyng to tell stories, so this kind of limit RP choices. If you want to progress in shadowy storylets, you'll have to steal stuff. For persuasive, you'll have to seduce people. For dangerous, you'll have to be violent, etc.
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Slyblue
Slyblue
Posts: 105

3/17/2017
All the Making Your Name storylets have aspects that wouldn't really fit in unless your character is an OP Paramount Presence of Legendary Awesomeness. How did my curt, drunk revolutionary get through Court when he can barely write his own letters? How did my hedonistic ex-Author kill enough people without breaking a sweat, if she can't tell a dagger's pommel from the pointy end? Why does anyone want to befriend my definitely insane alt? It's just stuff that happens, and it's up to us to headcanon a way for it to make sense, sadly. I don't think FL can possibly pander to every background and every character we can come up with, after all.
edited by Slyblue on 3/17/2017

--
"For hearts of truest mettle, absence doth join, and time doth settle."
Mademoiselle. Hedonistic socialite, silver-tongued Glassman, and private entertainer. Has an easy smile.
Maxwell Bradford, Curt revolutionary, pious gentleman, solemnly drunk most of the time.
Michael Barrows. Young graduate from the urchin gangs, with eyes set firmly on the horizon.
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Amalgamate
Amalgamate
Posts: 225

3/18/2017
Yeah, you kind of get that in all the trackers. I mean, to advance in Shadowy you pretty much have to be a sneaky SOB, to advance in Dangerous you have to be the kind of guy who joins ringfights for profit, the only path through Watchful leads you to become an academic studying an esoteric language... there's really no way to envision a consistent character that does all of those things.

--
My profile is at http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/amalgamate .

Social invitations of all kinds welcome!
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 304

3/19/2017
Amalgamate wrote:
Yeah, you kind of get that in all the trackers. I mean, to advance in Shadowy you pretty much have to be a sneaky SOB, to advance in Dangerous you have to be the kind of guy who joins ringfights for profit, the only path through Watchful leads you to become an academic studying an esoteric language... there's really no way to envision a consistent character that does all of those things.

Of course, nothing forces you to to follow all the paths; technically, you could do most things without starting any of them. However, it is an unfortunate irony that a mechanic designed to give you freedom and meaningful choices (i.e. a set of paths that are not mutually exclusive) ends up creating a completionist pressure to "Do ALL the things!" which sets up London for hosting a vast amount of dissociative identity disorder. (This could be the underlying cause of Dr. Schlomo's prosperity, come to think of it.)

That said, there is generally more wiggle-room in the other paths than with this particular incident, and of course it also comes up very early. The only other similar situation I can think of that comes up in the middle (instead of the end) of a progression is when the dangerous path forces you to take a life.

[spoiler]The dangerous situation is in some senses worse, because those who don't want to kill will - they thought - have just managed to sidestep the problem. Finding out they have to kill anyway is a particularly vicious bait-and-switch, and though the situation might make for great characterization viz Feducci, it's a miserable situation to play through without warning.[/spoiler]
edited by Siankan on 3/19/2017

--
Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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DonaghyLogan
DonaghyLogan
Posts: 178

3/19/2017
I like to think that my character is shaped primarily by me, but within the confines of the world, text, and mechanics the gamemakers have provided. Sometimes, that means that my character will grow in an unexpected direction because of "outside" input from the shape of the game. I personally like this aspect of the game, because it creates characters that are more complex and therefore more realistic than I might generate left more to my own devices. For instance, my character might have been a rather boringly monomaniacal scholar if the other aspects of the game hadn't driven her to become a master thief, etc., revealing to me a driving ambition, which pushes her primarily to expand her researches of the Correspondence, but also compels her to excel wherever she can.

  • edited by DonaghyLogan on 3/19/2017

    --
    http://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/DonaghyLogan - An eccentric, ambitious professor with a quite frankly unreasonable number of pets
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    Siankan
    Siankan
    Posts: 304

    3/19/2017
    Well, I will say I do enjoy rationalizing when I can. His short stint with Feducci's fighting rings came right after getting kicked out of the university, when he was very unsettled (and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do next). I also managed to pass through with a single quick fight, which helped. After he got settled out a bit, he left all that behind.

    However, there is at least one area in which issues like this one make interesting characters harder. Great characters are often defined more by their weaknesses than their strengths, and it's very hard to have a weakness (except for an extraordinarily flexible morality) when your character's been through all four Making Your Name sequences, and I don't mean that in a stats way. Need something killed? Call me. Need your neighbor's expensive whatsit to disappear? Send a raven. Need somebody who can charm the robe off a Master while simultaneously teasing ancient enigmas from alien scripts? Sure; I'm not busy this afternoon. What have I not done? I honestly prefer leaving game bits out in the name of not becoming a Superman who doesn't care about kryptonite and doesn't need the sun.

    --
    Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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    Robin Alexander
    Robin Alexander
    Posts: 492

    3/19/2017
    See, this is why I think the old system shouldn't have been changed . . .

    FBG went through a phase of 'fixing' what wasn't broken; anyone remember the changes to the cost feature, which practically broke the Forgotten Quarter, and still hasn't been 100% fixed? This is kind of the same thing, only this one may stay (like the renown) . . . only it could probably be tweaked a little, like with the renown, and - like how the renown is still incomplete over a year on - we could be waiting a long time for any changes.

    I feel the reason people liked FL was because of the freedom and ability to role-play how they liked . . . if you didn't want to do certain actions, you could easily avoid them, and if you wanted to play a specific character, you could. The knew changes force you to play a very specific type of character, so that you're railroaded into certain choices that may be the antithesis to the character you created, and - no - this doesn't make for a 'more complex' character, as a person said, but simply takes away the power of imagination and choice from the player. 'Simple' characters can be very complex in motivation and personality, but now with everyone 'complex' and a 'jack of all trades' all new characters lose anything special and unique.

    We can't create our own paths. We can't create our own experiences. We're all doing the exact same thing as every other player . . . playing the exact same things, the exact same stories, with no deviation and no need to create a community to trade stories or ask for information . . . it's a cut-and-paste formulaic playthrough.

    I think it could put people off, too . . .

    In the old system, my main and alt were able to take control; I could define them, explore freely, try to unlock certain new places, grid for new things, do what I wanted to do and do what I enjoyed (ignoring what may have been a displeasure to me). I tried creating new accounts since then, but every single one I deleted . . . it was too boring, to be honest, forced to play a specific path and takes aggggges before I was free to explore or do certain things or go to certain areas, especially when to get to the next level of 'making your name in x' you could spend days or weeks of grinding the same actions over and over and over . . . not good enough just to beat x dude, but you have to be x dude and an insane number of other people, too, even when it creates gameplay/story segregation and plotholes.

    There's a reason why open-world games are more popular than closed-world, linear-path games . . . just like there's a reason why games with enforced tutorials get more complaints than games with more innovative or 'learn as you go' systems. This new system -? It's like the world's most boring and longest tutorial, and - frankly - I would love to see player numbers, because I'm curious if other people dropped off due to the new system, too. Older players stay as nothing changed for them, but brand new player I can imagine being turned off.

    --
    Robin Alexander - Main
    Benjamin Parker - Seeker (Alt)
    Lucius Parker - Son of Benjamin Parker (Alt)

    Open to all social actions.
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    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 1485

    3/20/2017
    bjharts wrote:
    I'm also struggling with this at the moment. The Bellicose Prelate is a clergyman and a Campaigner for the Church. Persuasive is a key stat for him, but the romantic plotlines don't fit his character. I'm rationalizing it as recalling something from the character's past, before he received his Vocation.

    Isn't in his character? Doesn't the Melancholy Prelate have some interests regarding unusual hungers and whatnot?

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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    Aberrant Eremite
    Aberrant Eremite
    Posts: 130

    3/20/2017
    Indeed he does. And if my own Prelate gets his hands on him, he'll break his d----d neck. And bring a butterfly net for his "sister."

    <ahem> That hostility is purely in-character. Another character of mine <blush> actually paid Fate for the "bonus ending" to the Melancholy Curate and his Enigmatic Sister storyline.

    Anne Auclair wrote:

    Isn't in his character? Doesn't the Melancholy Prelate have some interests regarding unusual hungers and whatnot?

    edited by bjharts on 3/21/2017

    --
    Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
    Tanith Wyrmwood: Bohemian socialite and scandalous author. Still talks like a newly arrived Longshanks, only now she has better clothes.
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    al2o3cr
    al2o3cr
    Posts: 54

    3/24/2017
    bjharts wrote:
    I'm also struggling with this at the moment. The Bellicose Prelate is a clergyman and a Campaigner for the Church. Persuasive is a key stat for him, but the romantic plotlines don't fit his character. I'm rationalizing it as recalling something from the character's past, before he received his Vocation.



  • Another possible take: at its heart, seduction is about gaining trust and intimacy. The text certainly points in one somewhat *downwards* direction regarding the particulars of that intimacy, but if you're willing to handwave away certain bits you could regard it as some other kind - for instance, the intimacy of the confessional for the newly-converted.
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    Aberrant Eremite
    Aberrant Eremite
    Posts: 130

    3/24/2017
    I like this. It's a much better headcanon than what I was working with. I'll be over in Veilgarden trying to redeem the Heiress and the Jewel-Thief.



    al2o3cr wrote:
    bjharts wrote:
    I'm also struggling with this at the moment. The Bellicose Prelate is a clergyman and a Campaigner for the Church. Persuasive is a key stat for him, but the romantic plotlines don't fit his character. I'm rationalizing it as recalling something from the character's past, before he received his Vocation.



  • Another possible take: at its heart, seduction is about gaining trust and intimacy. The text certainly points in one somewhat *downwards* direction regarding the particulars of that intimacy, but if you're willing to handwave away certain bits you could regard it as some other kind - for instance, the intimacy of the confessional for the newly-converted.


  • --
    Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
    Tanith Wyrmwood: Bohemian socialite and scandalous author. Still talks like a newly arrived Longshanks, only now she has better clothes.
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