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Hannah Flynn
Hannah Flynn
Administrator
Posts: 347

1/19/2017
lady ciel wrote:

Are you going to use Humble Bundle again? It is not mentioned in the preview



We're offering a DRM-free version through GOG this time.

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Robin Alexander
Robin Alexander
Posts: 501

1/19/2017
Hannah Flynn wrote:


We recognise how much it sucks to find out about a Kickstarter bonus after the Kickstarter, and we didn't want to perpetuate that by offering something similar again.

However, there are future social rewards which you'd be very interested in. If they're unlocked by the community during the Kickstarter then they will be available to everyone - no more locking off of content-based exclusives.


I'm actually very grateful for that.

I'm happy to try and aim for the social rewards, and - were I able to play the game - I'd donate in a heartbeat. The prices are great, while the rewards for each donation are very fair/proportionate, but I think the rewards need to be exclusively (or close enough) to the game that's being kick-started . . . which they are, which I love smile

The thing is that a lot of FL do miss out on exclusives, as they may not be aware of the kick-starter. I'm still a little miffed I can never help others by breeding my own kittens, as I totally missed out on getting a panther, and games need to be relatively self-contained (in the sense that a player should never be locked out of content because they haven't played another game, or contributed financially to another game whose kickstarter they may not even know exists) . . . this is fairer, as long-term fans of FL aren't unfairly locked out of content.

I think - if people do want FL exclusives, which I would be all for - it'd be better to do a kick-starter or fund-raiser for "Fallen London" in specific, with an advertisement in the game banner . . . especially as cost could be an issue; at what price do you put the FL bonuses, and what if it's slightly beyond the price-range that fans are able to pay, etc.?

The rewards as they stand for the new game are great; t-shirts are extremely popular at the moment, just look at companies like Lootcrate who have them as a fundamental part of their sets, and I think the variety of rewards suits every kind of potential player/backer . . .

I'm just very glad that players aren't being locked out of content (or feeling obliged to contribute) because FL rewards are attached to a totally different project . . . it feels more respectful of the fanbase smile

That being said, I'll try to contribute something regardless . . .

I'll have to go back and check, but if we can donate any amount - so say even just £5 or so - that'd be absolutely perfect.

Edit: Can we donate any amount or only the set amounts?
edited by Robin Alexander on 1/19/2017

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Kukapetal
Kukapetal
Posts: 1082

1/19/2017
Hannah Flynn wrote:
We recognise how much it sucks to find out about a Kickstarter bonus after the Kickstarter, and we didn't want to perpetuate that by offering something similar again.


Oh no, that's not what I meant at all! I'm not angry at FBG for offering the panther and falcon as kickstarter rewards. I've only been playing for a year and a half, and so I simply missed those kickstarters because I didn't know of their existence (and probably wouldn't have cared at the time if I had because, like I said, I didn't play FL back then). That's just the luck of the draw and I'd never hold it against anyone who did get them because they were around for the kickstarter and I wasn't. All I meant was that their existence gave me incentive to want to contribute to any future FBG kickstarters and so I was eagerly looking forward to supporting this one.

I see nothing wrong with offering a single, unique item to FL players who backed the kickstarter. It's a reward, like any other, and is no more unfair than any other reward offered through the kickstarter. And it's a great incentive for people who only play FL (like me) to still want to support Sunless Skies. Like I said, the previous two companion rewards made me downright eager to support this kickstarter (and indeed, any future FBG kickstarters).

I do hope you'll reconsider. I'm a FL only player, but I've still got money I'd like to give you. And I know I'm not the only one smile
edited by Kukapetal on 1/19/2017
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Akernis
Akernis
Posts: 105

1/19/2017
I can already feel my excitement rising smile
Oddly, the character creator was the thing that made me the most giddy with anticipation. I have always liked FL style of a silhouetted portraits for the player's character, but found the selection rather limited. It's great to see that it appears expanded from the original one. Fingers crossed that such an expanded selection / character creator will get adopted to Fallen London as well.

As for the game itself I really have no feedback beyond incomprehensible noises of praise. I am eager to see the game and will certainly add my support to the Kickstarter, to whatever degree I can afford.

I won't be able to assist with the social rewards, but I really do hope that they get met, it'll be fascinating.
.
edited by Akernis on 1/19/2017

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Johnny Felix
Johnny Felix
Posts: 141

1/19/2017
Ok, the best thing for me I took from the page is that in SSky not all stories will reset on the demise of a captain. That was perhaps my biggest peeve with SSea.
Still, I'm waffling whether to support this kickstarter. There is nothing in the backer rewards that really interest me besides the game itself, and that I can buy later through the usual channels. I'm just not a T-shirt kind of guy. A Fallen London-related reward, like the panther or the Temple club would likely bring me over the fence. But if it's not meant to be this time, well... I'll probably decide in the last hours of the KS.

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Kukapetal
Kukapetal
Posts: 1082

1/19/2017
Robin Alexander wrote:


I'm happy to try and aim for the social rewards, and - were I able to play the game - I'd donate in a heartbeat. The prices are great, while the rewards for each donation are very fair/proportionate, but I think the rewards need to be exclusively (or close enough) to the game that's being kick-started . . . which they are, which I love smile

The thing is that a lot of FL do miss out on exclusives, as they may not be aware of the kick-starter. I'm still a little miffed I can never help others by breeding my own kittens, as I totally missed out on getting a panther, and games need to be relatively self-contained (in the sense that a player should never be locked out of content because they haven't played another game, or contributed financially to another game whose kickstarter they may not even know exists) . . . this is fairer, as long-term fans of FL aren't unfairly locked out of content.


Here's the problem I have with this. Kickstarter rewards aren't supposed to be "fair." They're supposed to be an incentive to donate money. By stripping them away in the interest of "fairness", all FBG is going to do is lose money on the kickstarter. Why is FBG AND potential donators BOTH losing out on something they want just so someone who joins the game a year later doesn't have to be disappointed they missed out on a single item (one out of MANY that they are going to be locked out of anyway, due to game mechanics) the preferable option? Since when should "making sure someone doesn't feel bad a year later" be more important than "making money" as the goal of a kickstarter?

I mean, the whole "fairness" thing could be applied to any of the rewards offered. Suppose I'm someone who really REALLY wants to design a character in Sunless Skies, but I don't have that kind of money. Is that fair? Should they get rid of that reward if it isn't? What if I DO have that kind of money but don't find out about the kickstarter until it's over? Is that fair? Should the reward be removed because that might happen?

Obviously I don't want such a thing (I wouldn't want FBG to be screwed out of money they could have gotten by offering such a reward, or people who can afford the reward to miss out on it, all because I feel bad I can't also obtain it). If I'm not going to get it either way, what good does taking it away from everyone else do? Same goes for Fallen London-based incentives.

The social participation idea is cute, and it's nice of FBG to offer something for people who can't donate to take part in, but having those be the ONLY FL based rewards......it kind of comes across like "not only are we not going to offer incentives for FL players to donate, but we don't want their money PERIOD. But hey, here's some busy work for them to do on the side so they don't feel left out." Also, unlike monetary transactions, which are guaranteed to provide the desired item once completed, you may not even get these rewards if enough other people don't also participate. And if you do, EVERYONE gets them, regardless of whether they lifted a finger to help or not. And since they're rewards distributed to every single person, they won't be nearly as valuable or as unique as something you could "purchase" for yourself by donating actual money to the kickstarter.

I do think that any FL based reward should be "contained," in that, the presence or lack of it won't affect any other game but your own. A cool item or companion, a self contained bit of story, etc. No one wants to see another player's progress in a storylet brought to a screeching and irreversible halt because they don't have an item or quality they could only obtain through a kickstarter event five years ago. That truly would be unfair. But I'm guessing that would be easy to avoid.

It's certainly possible I speak only for myself here. But it's also possible I speak for many others, including people who don't read/post here...all of whom wish to make a mutually beneficial transaction with FBG. I only ask that the people behind the kickstarter consider the idea.
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phryne
phryne
Posts: 726

1/19/2017
OK, finally had enough time to read the whole thing!

I'm determined to have something in the game named "Amarantyne" and £100 is about what I expected for that, so no complaints there. And getting a digital lore book on top would be awesome! I might even pay the extra £50 to name "something significant" but it's a lot of money for me and I'm not really interested in a printed star chart, so not sure yet.

The whole thing about time being a commodity item that can be manufactured and sold is very intriguing. And, like Johnny Felix said above, this is awesome:
Arriving at the major port in each region will save your game and your progress up to that point. If you set off to explore a new area and die before making port, you’ll be reset to the last major port and the map ahead will reshuffle for your new captain’s first voyage.
When your captain dies, your next one will continue their legacy, inheriting a portion of their wealth and experience. Be warned, though - a captain’s actions are not erased when they die. Unlike in Sunless Sea, not all stories reset for a new captain. Many of the effects you've had on the world are remembered, and the achievements and follies of your earlier captains may haunt those that come after them.
This is great! I've never played SSea in Merciless mode because dying means everything you did is wiped out completely. This sounds like a much better concept already!


re: previous posts complaining about the lack of in-game FL or SSea backer rewards. I was surprised by this too! Many people seem to be interested in getting such unique items, so I think FB should definitely add one or two reward levels like that. I also agree that the gaps between £30 and £75, as well as between £150 and £500 seem unnecessarily huge. Maybe put in a £50 level for a unique item/companion that appears in FL and SSea (like the Parabolan Panther), and a £250 level for a unique story in FL (like the Bespoke Stories from earlier Kickstarters)?


Very excited about this and totally determined to back!

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Emain Ablach
Emain Ablach
Posts: 299

1/20/2017
I find the page very nice, the information is displayed clearly, it shows how intriguing and interesting the game and its world will be. The backer knows what he'll involve himself with.

The rewards seem ok as well.
The only real "flaw" I see is a lack of "physical" reward reminding the content of the game itself, the only example I see being the printed chart of the Wilderness.
Maybe some coins (echos ?), or a captain certificate with the name of the backer ? Or any item specific to Sunless Skies and not expensive to produce ?
This kind of rewards really motivate me and the people I know who are backers.

EDIT : space trains ! SPACE TRAINS ! Oh. My. God. It's just soooo cool. Remind me of Galaxy Express 999.
edited by Emain Ablach on 1/20/2017

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Frederick Metzengerstein
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 44

1/20/2017
Firstly, allow me to add my voice to the others congratulating you on a very well written Kickstarter page. It's hard to describe exactly why it works, but it just does. The writing is interesting, funny and compelling. It provides plenty of new detail while leaving you with more new questions than answers. It is wide ranging. And the art is gorgeous.

I am also very excited about the idea of past captains leaving their mark on the Wilderness; being remembered. I think this is a fascinating bold new addition to the SSea legacy mechanic.

Mostly I think the rewards are fantastic, but I have to agree that no Fallen London (or SSea?) related rewards is a missed opportunity. Personally, I bear no malice or resentment over the fact that I missed the last two kickstarters. Backers were awarded cool items which, sure, I would have liked to have, but those offers they were before my time.

Personally, I think there should be more connections between the Fallen London games, not less. Each game enriches the other, so why shouldn't the players of one be encouraged to support the development of another. I won't lie, the idea of new Fallen London content was what I was most looking forward to in this Kickstarter.

BTW, the Royal Society thing is fantastic! Any chance you could provide more detail about what results different social accomplishments will generate?
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Màiread
Màiread
Posts: 257

1/20/2017
I haven't ever used kickstarter before, but this looks pretty good to me! In terms of the descriptions, the only thing I would say is lacking is a tagline like 'Lose your mind. Eat your crew' - something punchy, pithy and attractive that grabs attention and gives a sense of the atmosphere of the game. You might also want to make it clear that Skies is it's own world and story and you don't need to have played FL or SSea to enjoy it (assuming, of course, that this is the case!).

I do also agree that the current reward tiers are not yet perfectly balanced. For myself, I'd be interested in the digital lore book, but I definitely wouldn't back the £30 tier as I have absolutely no use for a second copy - offering a £20/25 tier for one game and the book would be nice. More generally, the gap between the lower price points and the bigger ones seems pretty big. I appreciate that you can only offer a limited number of types of physical rewards (production being an absolute pain) and that you're keen not to have exclusive story stuff any more, so I'm not quite sure how you could bridge the gap, but the people I know who might consider donating definitely won't be willing to pay an extra £60 for a T-Shirt, but might well consider giving £35-50 for something unique.

Congratulations on your excellent work on the game. It truly does look delicious.

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Hannah Flynn
Hannah Flynn
Administrator
Posts: 347

1/20/2017
phryne wrote:

re: previous posts complaining about the lack of in-game FL or SSea backer rewards. I was surprised by this too! Many people seem to be interested in getting such unique items, so I think FB should definitely add one or two reward levels like that. I also agree that the gaps between £30 and £75, as well as between £150 and £500 seem unnecessarily huge. Maybe put in a £50 level for a unique item/companion that appears in FL and SSea (like the Parabolan Panther), and a £250 level for a unique story in FL (like the Bespoke Stories from earlier Kickstarters)?


I'm excited that you're excited! AAAAA!


We learnt a lot from the last Kickstarter, and have worked really hard to balance the amount of work involved in delivering these rewards with our capacity as a studio. We want to deliver good work, in a timely manner, that's relevant and interesting to as many players as possible (remembering that these forums are frequented by maybe a couple of hundred core Fallen London players out of the 30,000 monthly players or 430,000 Sunless Sea owners).


We also want to make the rewards of this Kickstarter relevant to the new game, instead of committing ourselves to FL stories - which would definitely have to come at the expense of other Fallen London content.

Getting involved in the social goals will unlock new things for FL players (including one item which would cross all three games, zomg etc).



On the t-shirt reward: international shipping would be £15 and is included in the reward price, does that make it seem any more possible? I can take the shipping out so the reward looks cheaper, but it would only be added to the basket. I'm going back and forth on this, all thoughts welcome. smile

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Kukapetal
Kukapetal
Posts: 1082

1/20/2017
Hannah Flynn wrote:




We also want to make the rewards of this Kickstarter relevant to the new game, instead of committing ourselves to FL stories - which would definitely have to come at the expense of other Fallen London content.

Getting involved in the social goals will unlock new things for FL players (including one item which would cross all three games, zomg etc).





I get that extensive tie-ins could get disruptive, both for players who can't get access to the new content and for writers who have to write it at the expense of regular FL stories, but is a single unique Sunless Skies-themed companion really all that disruptive? And if it is, won't offering it as a social reward be equally as disruptive for the writers...except now FBG doesn't get any kickstarter money in return? Or is it going to be considerably less work for the people behind the scenes because it's essentially a freebie...and therefore, probably not as good as the previous kickstarter rewards?


And my first reaction upon reading the new item is "Okay, it's given to every single player across three games and it's unlocked via cosplay photos. How good could this thing be? Certainly not as cool as the falcon or panther.

Maybe I'm wrong, but since we know nothing about it, it doesn't do much to ease my mind or provide me with much incentive to try and get it. Of course, since the social goals don't actually make a difference in the kickstarter, maybe that's not a huge problem for FBG, but it still sucks for us.

I mean, look at the rewards we do see. An extra port in a game I can't play? A discount at a store I'm not going to use? A tidbit of lore of unknown value (is the Masters secret going to be something cool to find out or is it going to be something silly like "Mr. Apples likes getting his feet tickled by rubbery men"? And some extra actions in FL (nice but hardly unique or lasting). These don't fill me with confidence that future FL rewards are going to anything to get excited about. Again, if I knew what all the rewards were, that might change, right now, I don't.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, just trying to explain how I feel and why that is. And that other people may feel the same. And I know that not everybody thinks like me and that some people are probably happy with the new changes but...these are mostly going to be people who aren't going to donate to the kickstarter. Prioritizing people who aren't going to donate to your kickstarter (either because they can't afford it or because they don't know about it) over people who would donate and WANT to, just seems like a weird way to run a kickstarter.
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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 1714

1/20/2017
The social rewards are to draw more attention to SSkies, and hopefully more backers. Most FL players probably want the game, so there's not as much of a need to appeal to them. But rewarding them for bringing new people into the game appeals to them and gives more backers.

On the stream today they talked about how many of the things are up in the air, you've stuck with FBG this long because of their writing, I think you can trust they'll keep it up for the master's secret or whatever else they add.

This also lets FL fans show their support, and earn new stories, even if they lack money or don't want SSkies.
edited by suinicide on 1/20/2017

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Kukapetal
Kukapetal
Posts: 1082

1/20/2017
suinicide wrote:
The social rewards are to draw more attention to SSkies, and hopefully more backers. Most FL players probably want the game, so there's not as much of a need to appeal to them. But rewarding them for bringing new people into the game appeals to them and gives more backers.

On the stream today they talked about how many of the things are up in the air, you've stuck with FBG this long because of their writing, I think you can trust they'll keep it up for the master's secret or whatever else they add.

This also lets FL fans show their support, and earn new stories, even if they lack money or don't want SSkies.
edited by suinicide on 1/20/2017


If they don't need to appeal to FL players because most of them are going to buy the game anyway, why offer FL based incentives at all, even as social rewards? The social rewards could be given more generic appeal to draw in other people besides just FL players, if bringing in new backers is so important. More people who want said social rewards=more people trying to bring in backers. Since they're designed with a small subset of people (those who can't donate and those who aren't around for the kickstarter) in mind, they can't be that important. That's why it feels like a pat on the head and being told "okay, you can play too. Now go sit on the bench and yell 'go team!' Don't worry, everyone gets a 2 inch tall trophy at the end of the game(so does everyone who signs up for the team in the future. They get a trophy commemorating their participation in this particular game), so it doesn't matter how much you actually play. Why are you frowning?"

I'm fine with offering stuff for people who can't donate, but not with forcing everyone to be in that group. I mean, I was going to pledge up to a hundred dollars if there was a cool FL item offered. Now I have no incentive to donate anything. I don't get anything, FBG doesn't get anything the people who aren't going to donate to the kickstarter wouldn't have gotten that item either way...I just fail to see how anyone benefits.
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Sandi Gummy
Sandi Gummy
Posts: 75

1/20/2017
tbh I don't care either way, just wanna to see skies come true xDD

Special gifts are good, no special gifts are still good xD!

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Pumpkinhead
Pumpkinhead
Posts: 260

1/20/2017
I think they're probably just trying to be efficient. As Suinicide said, a lot of FL players are going to donate anyway, so it's not like they need to offer more incentives. Even though adding a unique item in probably wouldn't be all that hard, it is one more thing for them to worry about for not all that much benefit (for them). While I agree that something like the Parabolan Panther would be nice, I frankly would rather have them focus on larger things, like making an awesome game and expanding FL. The more time they spend on little stuff, the less they have to spend time on the big stuff.
Kukapetal wrote:

I mean, I was going to pledge up to a hundred dollars if there was a cool FL item offered. Now I have no incentive to donate anything. I don't get anything, FBG doesn't get anything the people who aren't going to donate to the kickstarter wouldn't have gotten that item either way...I just fail to see how anyone benefits.

But you do get something. You get Sunless Skies. This isn't a FL kickstarter. It's a Sunless Skies kickstarter. If your only incentive for donating was getting a unique item in FL, then the kickstarter isn't really aimed at you. It's aimed at people that want Sunless Skies.
Just my thoughts. I can understand where you're coming from too. I certainly would have enjoyed a unique item, but I don't think a lack of one is dealbreaking.
edited by Pumpkinhead on 1/20/2017

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Kukapetal
Kukapetal
Posts: 1082

1/20/2017
Kickstarters are funded mostly by people who want to play the game. I don't disagree with this. But FBG had a great idea on their hands...they offered something that made people who weren't interested in their new games at all STILL want to donate to them. Heck, it had some of those people downright looking forward to donating to upcoming kickstarter. The kickstarter of a game they weren't going to play. I repeat, they've got people who don't even WANT the game willing to throw money at the kickstarter for said game and they......essentially say "keep it. We don't need it."

I don't understand it, but...I guess I'll do my best to respect it.
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John Moose
John Moose
Posts: 153

1/20/2017
I myself wouldn't plan a KS to be backed by people with no intent to actually use the finished product. I think keeping the games separate so we can decide which game we pay for and how much, without these getting mixed up - 100€ for a few FL stories and a new pet is an incredibly bad deal to anyone backing the KS just for those extras. This way the FL crew will keep making FL content, the SSk crew will make SSk content, and we'll put as much money into each as we want without being forced to support both or neither.

I mean really, the FL crew puts out content as fast as they can in any case, so we'd be just asking for the opportunity to pay 100€ for content that otherwise comes at the cost of 7€/month and the odd 30 fate story now and then.

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phryne
phryne
Posts: 726

1/20/2017
Kukapetal wrote:
Heck, I don't even have any interest in the game since my old dinosaur of a computer would probably explode if I tried to run it, but will still pledge if there's a unique FL companion offered. [...]

I mean, I was going to pledge up to a hundred dollars if there was a cool FL item offered. Now I have no incentive to donate anything. I don't get anything.

It's absolutely none of my business and don't be mad at me, but here's something I don't understand: if you were willing to donate 100 $ for a game you can't even play, why don't you instead save up a bit more money and buy a new computer/notebook on which you can actually play the game once it comes out in 2019 or whenever? Wouldn't that be much more intelligent?

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Kukapetal
Kukapetal
Posts: 1082

1/21/2017
No, obviously no one would plan a kickstarter intending for it to be backed solely by people who don't want the game. But bringing in extra help from non players who want the FL themed reward can only help. What's so wrong about adding extra incentive for people who might not otherwise donate? And if you think whatever deal is being offered is a bad one, then you don't have to donate.

I don't know why people seem to think offering a single, self-contained kickstarter reward for FL is some sort of scheme to force FL players to support extensive Sunless Skies content, or that it will cripple the people behind FL to the point where they can't give us new content.

phryne wrote:

It's absolutely none of my business and don't be mad at me, but here's something I don't understand: if you were willing to donate 100 $ for a game you can't even play, why don't you instead save up a bit more money and buy a new computer/notebook on which you can actually play the game once it comes out in 2019 or whenever? Wouldn't that be much more intelligent?


Because I honestly want a FL based reward more than I want the actual game. I'm not a gamer (hence why having a crappy computer isn't a big deal to me), and FL is really the only game I play and one of the few nonessential things I spend my money on. I normally wouldn't have given a kickstarter like this a second thought, but the idea of getting something cool for FL is enough of an incentive that I'd be willing to spend my FL money on it. Probably not the thriftiest thing in the world but....eh....it's really not. You're probably right. Maybe I really am an idiot :P
edited by Kukapetal on 1/21/2017
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