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Why does everyone hate the New Sequence? Messages in this topic - RSS

Passionario
Passionario
Posts: 722

9/21/2016
The Dawn Machine is an equivalent of a feral child raised by swamp frogs.

It is not a fully functioning Judgment, it will probably never become one without contact with others of its kind, and it certainly doesn't have the best interests of the frogs in mind.

--
This is my profile and this is my light.
These are my words to the merciful night.
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absimiliard
absimiliard
Posts: 759

9/21/2016
I believe Passionario has just summed up the situation perfectly.

Nice metaphor sir.

Though I might add that it is an incredibly dangerous feral child -- from a frog's point of view.

--
"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
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Julias Stokes
Julias Stokes
Posts: 113

9/21/2016
Well, to answer your question, first we must -THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN TH- And that's why it's illegal to lick doorknobs on other planets.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Julias~Stokes - A revolutionary of his own sort, who has devoted his life to overthrowing the Bazaar, ascending to godhood, and saving London. Doesn't have to be in that order. I'll accept any social actions - except maybe suspicious loitering.
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Sir Goomy
Sir Goomy
Posts: 111

9/21/2016
Julias Stokes wrote:
Well, to answer your question, first we must -THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN TH- And that's why it's illegal to lick doorknobs on other planets.


There is a huge problem with your post, mate!
You haven't written and praised THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN enough!

--
Social actions, invites, roleplaying and general merrymaking is more than welcomed!

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sir~Goo
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Emain Ablach
Emain Ablach
Posts: 303

9/21/2016
You probably mean "UN THE SUN THE SUN THE S".

--
Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him.

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Emain%20Ablach
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Kyron The Wise
Kyron The Wise
Posts: 45

9/21/2016
Gonna put aside the free will debate, and instead focus on a different answer.

The Dawn Machine is not your friend. What it seeks to do is become powerful, and overthrow the Judgements, via the process of ending the Great Chain that dictates our place in the universe (Chain isn't quite inviolable, but it's pretty close). Now, while I'm all for ending the Chain, here's what you need to consider: Do you want the Dawn Machine to be the new boss? All it really cares about is getting to the top, not bringing everyone else along. Sure, it speaks of ending the chain, but much like other demagogues throughout history, especially given how the thing behaves, it is pretty likely it would institute something far worse.

Hell, even the process of ending the Chain could be catastrophic. Though not indicative of what will happen in every attempt to end the Chain, when the Red Science was used to break part of it, Time itself was scarred. Now, maybe there are ways to end the Chain without catastrophic destruction. The Dawn Machine likely just would not care.

To sum things up, the Dawn Machine is an artificial Judgement, reviled by the actual Judgements, and is willing to do anything to tear them down. We (humans) are mere tools. I may not like the Judgements, and would prefer to overthrow them as well, but even I wouldn't turn to the Dawn Machine. It takes over, it is unlikely that we will survive, let alone benefit from its war against everything.

Some may hate the Dawn Machine for what it is, I hate the Dawn Machine for what it is willing to do.
edited by Kyron The Wise on 9/21/2016

--
Kyron The Wise, Correspondent, and thus always a wee bit insane. Also now on the Seeking Road, I do not desire Mr. Eaten's name, but pursue the identity of another name. (Main Account):
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Kyron~The~Wise
Secondary, previously dreaming of Parabola, now dreaming of the Name, account:
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Librari

You can argue with me, and you might even defeat my points. But somewhere along the way I may use philosophy to make you question existence. Who's the real winner?
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Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/22/2016
Passionario wrote:
The Dawn Machine is an equivalent of a feral child raised by swamp frogs.

It is not a fully functioning Judgment, it will probably never become one without contact with others of its kind, and it certainly doesn't have the best interests of the frogs in mind.


Well that explains everything...I happen to have a fondness for feral children raised in strange places, being a former suppressedly feral child raised in a strange place reading about children in stranger places.

--
Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/22/2016
Kyron The Wise wrote:
Gonna put aside the free will debate, and instead focus on a different answer.
...shortened for thread readability...
Some may hate the Dawn Machine for what it is, I hate the Dawn Machine for what it is willing to do.
edited by Kyron The Wise on 9/21/2016


I am not saying you are wrong, i'm just genuinely asking, where in the game(s) is all of this related? I brought New Sequence / Dawn Machine supremacy up high enough to kick the admiral out of London and pursued every associated storyline I could find other than the end of the Carnelian Exile which seemed relevant. The only other source of info I have heard is the Last Dog Society and Wry Functionary content in FL which I intend to buy ASAP. Is there anything else I am missing outside of those?

It's hard for me to believe that a machine that's so beautiful could be so cold and heartless to the ones who perceive it as beautiful (me and other humans, presumably, I'm pretty sure I'm not THAT alone). But appearances can be deceiving of course.
edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/22/2016

--
Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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phryne
phryne
Posts: 876

9/22/2016
Morgan Joylighter wrote:
The only other source of info I have heard is the Last Dog Society and Wry Functionary content in FL which I intend to buy ASAP. Is there anything else I am missing outside of those?
Nope, that's it.

Morgan Joylighter wrote:
It's hard for me to believe that a machine that's so beautiful could be so cold and heartless to the ones who perceive it as beautiful (me and other humans, presumably, I'm pretty sure I'm not THAT alone). But appearances can be deceiving of course.
Indeed. As much as we'd all like to pretend otherwise, beauty is no reliable indicator of well-meaning/quality of character/etc... wink

--
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Emain Ablach
Emain Ablach
Posts: 303

9/22/2016
phryne wrote:
Indeed. As much as we'd all like to pretend otherwise, beauty is no reliable indicator of well-meaning/quality of character/etc... wink



You are so right, phryne. The Devils of London are a perfect example. Beautiful, smart, charming, interesting. And they want but one thing : your soul. Anything else (including yourself) doesn't interest them.

As for the Dawn Machine... is there any text saying that it cares about the well-being of the humans it took control of ? That would be a way to support Morgan Joylighter's sentiment.
edited by Emain Ablach on 9/22/2016

--
Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him.

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Emain%20Ablach
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Gul al-Ahlaam
Gul al-Ahlaam
Posts: 106

9/22/2016
Perhaps one is unhappy with the manner by which the Judgements run the world. Perhaps the Liberation does not seem so appealing. Perhaps what one desires is not an abolition of the Chain, but a change in its order. A Chain, perhaps, that is more permissive, or less permissive, or places ants above alligators, or so on. Perhaps one wants a voice of one's own among the judgements, which speaks for the needs and desires of its creators (and how could it do anything else? it's a machine, after all. everything it does expresses the intention of the engineer. made in the image, as it were). Perhaps one wants to hedge one's bets, so to speak, against the chaos of Liberation. Perhaps one is attracted by the fawning love and devotion it inspires in its supplicants? Stranger things have happened.


  • --
    Grow strong. Life runs hot. Forget the Judgements.
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    John Moose
    John Moose
    Posts: 216

    9/22/2016
    "Worm-fates crawl on your skin. The Machine is sick. Its hatred threads your veins. Time will die. The Chain will end. "

    This sounds less like something with a conscious goal of ascending to godhood and caring for its servants on the way, and more like an abomination that should never have been born lashing out at the rest of existence for its own constant suffering.

    Huh, I'm starting to like the little clockwork.

    --
    Gone. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/John Moose
    A doctor with aspirations beyond his station, as well as an apiary enthusiast http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Noah Rache
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    Morgan Joylighter
    Morgan Joylighter
    Posts: 26

    9/22/2016
    phryne wrote:
    Morgan Joylighter wrote:
    The only other source of info I have heard is the Last Dog Society and Wry Functionary content in FL which I intend to buy ASAP. Is there anything else I am missing outside of those?
    Nope, that's it.


    Welp, guess I need to get on that before expressing any further theories...

    --
    Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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    Morgan Joylighter
    Morgan Joylighter
    Posts: 26

    9/23/2016
    Gul al-Ahlaam wrote:
    Perhaps one is unhappy with the manner by which the Judgements run the world. Perhaps the Liberation does not seem so appealing. Perhaps what one desires is not an abolition of the Chain, but a change in its order. A Chain, perhaps, that is more permissive, or less permissive, or places ants above alligators, or so on. Perhaps one wants a voice of one's own among the judgements, which speaks for the needs and desires of its creators (and how could it do anything else? it's a machine, after all. everything it does expresses the intention of the engineer. made in the image, as it were). Perhaps one wants to hedge one's bets, so to speak, against the chaos of Liberation. Perhaps one is attracted by the fawning love and devotion it inspires in its supplicants? Stranger things have happened.

  • I missed this post earlier but this is probably the best summation of why I feel that, in the face of a Chain that's too knotted up to reasonably persist, but a world that still contains too much love and beauty to just super-nuke it to death with reckless abandon, the Dawn Machine seems like the lesser of several evils... sort of like the cosmically philosophical version of "no taxation without representation"...an ideal that I'm surprised more people are not on board with considering how much Western culture glorifies the ideal of the free-spirited revolutionary, and by that I do not mean the anarchist kind but the "build a better society" kind.

  • Speaking of fawning love, I keep following all the New Sequence / Dawn Machine plot threads just hoping I will find out why I instantly felt so drawn to the damn thing as soon as I happened to discover it in the southwestern corner of the map. I can't think of another more enchanting moment of discovery in a video game. Everything about it from the artwork to the sound design to the name to the concept is just utterly alluring I'm obsessed with figuring out the non-obvious reason for that.

  • edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/23/2016

    --
    Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
    +2 link
    Emain Ablach
    Emain Ablach
    Posts: 303

    9/23/2016
    Morgan Joylighter wrote:
    I missed this post earlier but this is probably the best summation of why I feel that, in the face of a Chain that's too knotted up to reasonably persist, but a world that still contains too much love and beauty to just super-nuke it to death with reckless abandon, the Dawn Machine seems like the lesser of several evils...


    "Worm-fates crawl on your skin. The Machine is sick. Its hatred threads your veins. Time will die. The Chain will end. " <--- John Moose quoted this bit of text about the Machine. Still thinking that a godlike Machine filled with hatred is a "lesser evil" ?

    @Gul al-Ahlaam On the topic of a machine doing what is was designed to do, the Dawn Machine is exactly the opposite of that. It got free from what its creators intended. Kind of like a Singularity. What it does and wants is now its own, and is no longer bound to the intent of its makers.

    I find it interesting and troubling how you seem, Morgan Joylighter, to consider the Judgements are utterly evil when they are linked to law and harmony (forced upon you without your consent, it's true), while the Machine is linked to mind-control and hatred.

    I'm very interested in reading your thoughts about each of the "bad" aspects of the Machine that some of us talked about. smile
    edited by Emain Ablach on 9/23/2016

    --
    Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him.

    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Emain%20Ablach
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    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 2621

    9/26/2016
    I'm pretty sure the Dawn Machine literally eats souls. You know, like the normal Judgements. I'm not sure it's even polite enough to wait for true death first.

    --
    Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman

    PM me for hints enigmatic or fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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    A Dimness
    A Dimness
    Posts: 607

    9/26/2016
    Can I just state for the record that you can not use predeterminism as an argument in favour of the Dawn Machine? Free will is an intricate concept and there's no singular correct answer to seal the argument with. Claiming that we're solely chemical compounds doesn't defend your point that the tyranny of an insane god-machine imposing its mind-rape on people results in an equal amount of free will. I could argue with the same basic facts that you'd be taking away our illusion of free will which is just as bad, or that just because we have free will doesn't mean we don't feel like we have it and that feeling like you have free will is equal to actually having it.
    edited by Infinity Simulacrum on 9/26/2016

    --
    A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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    Autonomous
    Autonomous
    Posts: 25

    8/25/2017
    SUN=LAWS OF NATURE=DEATH IN 60-100 YEARS, AND NO IMMORTALITY.

    --
    I go Sharp
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    Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook
    Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook
    Administrator
    Posts: 2950

    8/25/2017
    Even if the Dawn Machine did entirely what the New Sequence wanted it to do, I would still oppose it, because the New Sequence are a bunch of reactionaries who are willing to swindle London for massive sums for a vanity project with no greater benefit than pretending they're still living in the glory days of bloody colonialism.

    --
    Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook, the Libertarian Esotericist. Reginald Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
    Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Ms Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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    Isaac Zienfried
    Isaac Zienfried
    Posts: 359

    8/25/2017
    Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
    swindle London for massive sums for a vanity project with no greater benefit than pretending they're still living in the glory days of bloody colonialism.

    So... politics as usual, then?

    --
    Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.'
    A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals.
    But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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