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Why does everyone hate the New Sequence? Messages in this topic - RSS

Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/18/2016
Both in-universe and among players, the New Sequence seems to be regarded as an evil and cultish entity. I have never quite understood why that is. Maybe there is something wrong with me, lol. By my understanding the Bazaar/Sun relationship is twisted and results in an incredible amount of suffering, the rules of the Neath are quite hellish, and someone who would seek to free the common people from that tangled web (without pointlessly destroying everything!) at least has honorable intentions even if they don't go about it perfectly. I keep seeing references to the New Sequence's "extremist" beliefs that they will impose on London if/when they gain Supremacy. What are these beliefs and where in the game(s) are they mentioned?

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Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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phryne
phryne
Posts: 876

9/18/2016
I guess most people just don't like the idea of being mind-controlled by a sentient machine...

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Teaspoon
Teaspoon
Posts: 751

9/18/2016
Yes, the descriptions I have seen of it seem to discard the entire concept of "free will" as an unimportant matter...there's lots wrong with the Judgements, but they at least allow people to do what they want at their own level.

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Barse
Barse
Posts: 487

9/18/2016
The Dawn Machine is a semi-sentient, completely mad machine that thinks it's a god, and has just enough power to make itself a threat - it needs to go!
Mind you, so do the rest of the Judgements, so...

In all seriousness I would welcome obscure New Sequence lore and things, I don't know a lot about them.

--
The Scorched Sailor, Captain of The Reckoning Postponed.
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Curious Foreigner
Curious Foreigner
Posts: 210

9/18/2016
The Judgements and their laws are bearable because they are far away from us. The Dawn Machine is right here in the Neath.
It will kill everything down here it considers Should-Not-Be, and I'm not going to wait around hoping I'm not falling into that category.

--
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John Moose
John Moose
Posts: 215

9/18/2016
The New Sequence is a perfectly valid political choice whose success will ensure a joyous future for you and the lessening of tyranny directed at you.

If you're the Dawn Machine.

Otherwise, happy slavery, worker ant.

--
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Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/19/2016
Honestly, I think the only reason we consider the natural laws of the universe to be less violating of free will is because we're so used to them. They're not any less tyrannical or free-will-violating because we're born (or reborn, in the Neath) immersed in them. Just adding the law of gravity, for example, removes the free will choice to be able to fly (for most creatures). Any set of rules and laws is naturally violating free will and I have yet to see anything specific about the Dawn Machine's idea of a natural order that seems particularly more terrible than any other.

I am not claiming to be right and I would very much welcome any specific references from FL and SS that document that the Dawn Machine removes all free will or is an insane god. I have read everything I can find on the subject and I have yet to find any evidence of this in the games.
edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/19/2016
edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/19/2016

--
Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 2048

9/19/2016
There is a difference between removing an option, and removing people's desire for that option. The Judgements gave us gravity, but they never said "You can't want to fly". So we still have free will, we can want to break the rules. It's putting the thoughts into action that's hard. The Judgements restrict freedom, not free will.

Also I don't think the dawn machine has complete mind control. You can find some ex-members, so unless something really undercover is happening, it's possible to break free. But on the other hand everyone exclaiming THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN, and having the navy sink their entire budget, ignoring their actual jobs and defense, into it, is not natural.
edited by suinicide on 9/19/2016

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Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/19/2016
The thing is, we don't decide what we want. It's the internal rules of our bodies and brains and psychology that determine what we want. So I don't see much of a difference in terms of removing free will.

I might just like chanting THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN though...

--
Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 2048

9/19/2016
They allow us to know of them, hate them, and plot the liberation of night (There are revolutionary people on the surface). If they are capable of mind control (I wouldn't put it past them) they either aren't using it, or just don't care enough about humanity to be bothered.

Or the liberation of night can't work.
edited by suinicide on 9/19/2016

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RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Robin Alexander
Robin Alexander
Posts: 513

9/19/2016
suinicide wrote:
They allow us to know of them, hate them, and plot the liberation of night (There are revolutionary people on the surface). If they are capable of mind control (I wouldn't put it past them) they either aren't using it, or just don't care enough about humanity to be bothered.



At the risk of being 'that guy'. . .

Who's to say that they aren't using such powers?

If the Judgements have such abilities, it's entirely possible they have created the illusion of free will. It might be through more insidious means, such as real-life psychological tactics or some level of unknown involvement with London, or it might work through outright mind-control. If they create in you the desire to fly, that desire isn't free will, as it isn't coming from you, but - as the one feeling such desire - you have no reason to assume it would come from elsewhere, thus believing you have free will.

It could even be the success/failure of LON could contribute to something greater that they want or need . . . I think I vaguely remember one master suffering a great deal in one destiny, which was caused by those same people, and I think he was missing in other destinies . . . if you wanted to be rid of someone without anyone knowing you were involved, mind control and the illusion of free will works wonders.
edited by Robin Alexander on 9/19/2016

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Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/19/2016
Yeah, maybe my brain works differently from most people or I missed a philosophy course but I don't understand why most people seem to think we have so much free will (both in real life and in SS/FL) when everything we want is determined by external factors even when the desires "seem" to be coming from inside ourselves. Who just "decides" of their own free will to like pizza or fried chicken or rubbery lumps? Hardly anyone...we just instinctively like those things because they give us the flavor sensations and mouth feel that our bodies are programmed to crave. Who decides of their own free will to highly value love? Very few people...it's just automatically compelling by its very nature...a nature that someone else decided or "programmed". I have always thought free will was only free from a certain point of view...

On the other hand, I don't have any particular evidence that the New Sequence's version of an ideal world is particularly nice to live in. My siding with them is more a function of the other side seeming particularly bleak, the Dawn Machine being a g-d*mn cool-looking piece of machinery, and the Voracious Diplomat being the most likeable money-producing character in the game (to me).

--
Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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Ysrthgrathe
Ysrthgrathe
Posts: 76

9/19/2016
Morgan Joylighter wrote:
Why Does Everyone Hate The New Sequence?

Most folks unfortunately are anti-progressive Luddites and Swing Rioters. So the wise radical must find a way to change the extent of what citizens will let themselves be forced to do whats good for them

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Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/19/2016
+1 for excellent double entendre use of "Luddite".

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Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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Emain Ablach
Emain Ablach
Posts: 303

9/19/2016
From what we see in the texts, the Dawn Machine clearly forces people to think in a certain way and rob them of their ability to think for themselves.
Do the Judgements do the same thing ? Maybe, but we have no proof. Maybe we can.
Within the New Sequence, we know we cannot.
Having a hope of freedom seems more interesting to me (that's just my own opinion, I don't expect others to share it) than having absolutely no hope. That's quite simple.
edited by Emain Ablach on 9/19/2016
edited by Emain Ablach on 9/19/2016

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Robin Alexander
Robin Alexander
Posts: 513

9/19/2016
Emain Ablach wrote:
From what we see in the texts, the Dawn Machine clearly forces people to think in a certain way and rob them of their ability to think for themselves.
Do the Judgements do the same thing ? Maybe, but we have no proof. Maybe we can.
Within the New Sequence, we know we cannot.
Having a hope of freedom seems more interesting to me than having absolutely no hope. That's quite simple.
edited by Emain Ablach on 9/19/2016

True, very true . . .

I can't help but wonder, however, whether free will is a good thing.

It reminds me of the prelapsarian state in philosophy, where the argument goes we were happier while ignorant, with knowledge being the thing that makes us suffer and often miserable . . . somewhat explored by William Blake, too, although I'm not sure whether he'd be around at the time the game was set or not (useless with maths and dates). Anyway, if knowledge can be likened to free will, we could say it's better to be in a state without free will, as opposed to having free will.

At the moment, in both real-life and in the game, we have an infinite amount of choices to make. Each one has a butterfly effect into other actions and events, affecting those around us, and that's a massive responsibility to take . . . it's the downside to free will. If my action causes my happiness, but hurts another in the process, what action should I take? It's likely I may feel guilty, if I take the 'wrong' one. Then we end up with debates about morality, ethics, the nature of mankind, the nature of life . . . you end up spending most of your time debating, discussing, thinking, instead of acting, because then things lead to 'meaning of life' type discussions.

If we lack free will, we are no longer responsible for anything we do.

It feels like the ultimate freedom, paradoxically, because you will no longer feel guilt or shame or any human emotion, as nothing you do would be your fault . . . no longer would you have to debate or think or discuss, as all your opinions and ideas are decided for you . . . you'd sacrifice your humanity, but there would potentially be a sense of peace in no longer having to weigh up every choice, whether you're selfish or selfless, as every option will lead you to wonder 'what if'. No more 'what ifs'.

I'm not sure why I'm arguing this, as I'm totally against the Dawn Machine and associated philosophies, but it does strike me as interesting why we all cling to free will so strongly . . . it's like when people fear oblivion after death, maybe we fear it because we literally cannot comprehend/imagine an existence aside from our current state.

Maybe we think free will is so great, because it's all we know . . .
edited by Robin Alexander on 9/19/2016

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Robin Alexander - Main
Benjamin Parker - Gone North
Lucius Parker - Son of Benjamin Parker (Alt)

Open to all social actions.
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Sir Goomy
Sir Goomy
Posts: 111

9/19/2016
Good on you Robin, I was about to write something very similar to what you said.

Fact Indeed is that having free will or not ultimately doesn't really matter, since both technically have strong ups and downs. And neither is in reality good or bad.

They are just different perspecives/views on things. Different paths to be doing the one and only thing that truly really matters in the big picture. Which is - existing, to exist, to be.

And with that said and fully back on topic - I can say that people hate it out of existential-related fears, out of choice and of course, out of ignorance.
edited by Sir Goomy on 9/19/2016

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templerlord
templerlord
Posts: 6

9/20/2016
People hate the Dawn Machine because they know that their free will is threatened.

People dislike the Judgements because they know their freedom is reduced.

Yet I have to say, is that living under the fear of three gods really more free?

And the more important questions is, free from what? Free for what?

That comes back to the free will topic. You can't say you are brainwashed if you could still know the absence of free will. If you are already been brainwashed, then you'll just think that you still have full free will.

So, it is possible that the Neath brainwashed everyone who entered it, and force them to think that the realm of darkness and grim gods are more better then the realm of sun, force them to think that they are perfectly innocent and don't deserve to be destroyed by themselves.

I'm not saying that's the truth, but that's a possibility which you can't prove false. So the fact is, we are still choosing what to believe by our interests, instead of by reason - because some reason just lies beyond our knowledge.

So, I for one, don't hate the Dawn Machine, nor other judgements. Praise the Sun!
edited by templerlord on 9/20/2016
edited by templerlord on 9/20/2016
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Pyrodinium
Pyrodinium
Posts: 639

9/20/2016
Pros of liking the New Sequence:

1. THE SUN!
2. THE SUN!
3. THE SUN!
4. THE SUN!
5. THE SUN!

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Morgan Joylighter
Morgan Joylighter
Posts: 26

9/21/2016
Pyrodinium wrote:
Pros of liking the New Sequence:

1. THE SUN!
2. THE SUN!
3. THE SUN!
4. THE SUN!
5. THE SUN!


You forgot "HE SUN".

And "T".
edited by Morgan Joylighter on 9/21/2016

--
Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
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