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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3269

1/2/2018
Raihan wrote:
That would imply that the Pharaoh's Daughters were alive for those 2,000 years (or a good portion of it) and that the Second City continued to exist as a power in the Neath, would it not?


The Duchess is still alive to this day, and iirc the Abbess in Bag a Legend! is one of the sisters as well. The Bazaar certainly continued as a power in the Neath, but it's hard to say about the Second City itself, as Amarna was specifically sold because it was ultimately unimportant.


gronostaj wrote:
is this where presbyterate came from? and here i thought the descritpion of feducci's face when he removes his bandages in the MoF as ramses-lookalike was just for poetry, but now that you mention that....-



The Presbyterate has been around for far longer than the Second City.

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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

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Greg M
Greg M
Posts: 145

1/12/2018
Oh sweet Jesus, that is brilliant. It HAS to be Jerusalem.

Inskora Bournvadus wrote:
I suspect the First City is Jerusalem, but I have nothing to base this on other than the First City coins, which are silver in colour and exchanged in batches of 30.


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Trilby
Trilby
Posts: 288

1/16/2018
Which of the masters do you think bought the fourth city?

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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 2403

1/16/2018
Silver tree says wines, I believe.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/16/2018
Greg Machlin wrote:
Oh sweet Jesus, that is brilliant. It HAS to be Jerusalem.

Inskora Bournvadus wrote:
I suspect the First City is Jerusalem, but I have nothing to base this on other than the First City coins, which are silver in colour and exchanged in batches of 30.

It is not Jerusalem. If Jerusalem were the First City, then what city did Christ die in, Hadrian destroy, Khalid capture, Godfrey liberate, Saladin retake? The game plainly states that the Fourth City was bought ca. 1300, the Third about 500 years before that, and we can date the purchase of the Second within a few decades, a little before 1300 B.C. Now, I admit that Jerusalem had been around at least a thousand years at that point, but all of its more interesting history was in the future, and in any case we can be quite certain that, unlike the other Cities (which were all "lost cities" when incorporated into Fallen London), Jerusalem is quite clearly still with us today.

Secondly, it is clearly stated that the First City coins aren't actually from the First City. They are "no more than 30 years old," and thus products of the Fifth City.

All of this is really immaterial, however. We know with great precision what the First City was, and where it was located. Its seller is still kicking around London, possibly manic, but definitely still here.

So why the obvious Judas reference in First City coins? As a historical reference, it's meaningless (see above). As a thematic reference, however, it hits deep. "Betrayal by sale" is a message that can be applied to... well, just about everything in this game.

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Sir Frederick
Sir Frederick
Administrator
Posts: 3256

1/16/2018
Keep in mind that we can't rely on real-world history exactly in this process - those cities may be fallen, but, unlike in the Neathy timeline, we still have their ruins on the surface.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/16/2018
There is one matter here where I think I can shed some light. It's not vital now, since the identity of the First City has long been locked on other evidence, but it may clear up some confusion. (I do not think this has been mentioned before, but it's a long and ancient thread, and I may have missed something in it over my reading.)

One of the continual puzzles of the Neath is the sidebar phrase that "Even the First City was young when Babylon fell." The discussion has centered around the date of Babylon's fall (was it Cyrus's conquest? some other conquest?) with a healthy smattering of reminders that what "they say" is rarely trustworthy--grains of truth in oceans of rumor, to borrow a phrase.

This snippet, however, I believe to be trustworthy. Our problem has been that we've been looking at the wrong Babylon.

Let me explain. Babylon is more than just a famous city; it is a symbol. Its symbolic roots reach into Judaism; the Jews were understandably upset by the destruction of Jerusalem and their forced resettlement. (Very few peoples survived as ethnic identities after Babylon was through with them.) You can get a good feel for their reaction in Psalm 137.

By the time Christianity appeared (and let us remember that the first leaders of the Church were all Jews), Babylon had become a symbol for temporal wealth, power, and temptation. As such, it could be applied to other cities. Peter mentions in his first letter the church in Babylon, but the "Babylon" in question was imperial Rome. In Revelation (and there are some excellent pokings at a relevant passage very early in this thread) "Babylon" stands for the city of the Antichrist. Later Christian writers picked up the symbolism, so that the name Babylon could be applied to any place of great wealth and great corruption. In short, the Babylon that fell in the First City's youth is not necessarily the city of Hammurabi.

So what is it, then? A center of wealth and vice. Something very ancient. Something that fell.

(Do you see where I am going yet?)

In my reading, the Babylon referred to is the Bazaar itself. It hits all the symbolic points. It fell--very literally--a long time ago. If this saying isn't a red herring, and if it has managed (as sayings often do) to remember truth down through the centuries, then we can date the Bazaar's arrival to (roughly) the Chalcolithic. That date, incidentally, gives us a keystone for a lot of other dates in Neathy history.

The suggestions from six years ago (!) that tentatively connected the Masters to Revelation 18 could, if proven, also be taken as corroborating evidence. After all, it's rather the next logical conclusion.

Now, any good theory needs to be disprovable, and the chief data that might disprove it involve the Elder Continent. A straight reading of the passage, identifying Babylon as the Bazaar and relying on current archaeological evidence, gives us a (very) rough estimate of 3,500-4,000 B.C., plus or minus a few centuries. Now, the advent of the Bazaar is intimately connected with the origins of the Mountain, and I seem to remember theories, at least, that push the history of the Elder Continent (which depends upon the Mountain for many of its characteristics) many centuries before that. If that's proven, then a straight reading of the passage as suggested would be impossible. However, even then we can't be sure without further evidence whether the identification or the dating is incorrect. It could even be both.

At this point, I'd love to hear from those who have played Flint or otherwise dallied with the Elder Continent. How old is the Presbyterate, as far as we know? Its citizens of course can hit four digits, but I don't know what information we have about its origins.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/16/2018
Sir Frederick wrote:
Keep in mind that we can't rely on real-world history exactly in this process - those cities may be fallen, but, unlike in the Neathy timeline, we still have their ruins on the surface.

Certainly, certainly, but the Cities have all been those which have disappeared--or at least fallen--in the real world. The ruins of Karakorum and Amarna might be there, but they weren't (for the most part) above ground when Fallen London began. As far as I can read, the history of Fallen London was meant to be compatible with our own history--at least until December 1861.

And there is the fact that we have the Church down here. That isn't likely to happen if there were no Jerusalem.
edited by Siankan on 1/16/2018

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Daedalus_Falk
Daedalus_Falk
Posts: 207

1/17/2018
I wonder: can we surmise which Masters negotiated the purchase of each city? Here's what I've pieced together so far.

The vision you get from the King with a Hundred Hearts in "Ambition: Heart's Desire" depicts a pair of Masters - one with a clay cup, and one with an unlit candle - negotiating the fall of the First City. The former is obviously Mr. Cups, and the latter was probably Mr. Eaten (or, more precisely, the Master who would eventually become him).

I have no idea who negotiated the fall of the Second City.

Without going into too many spoilers, the Mr. Eaten plotline more or less explicitly states that Mr. Veils negotiated the fall of the Third City.

"The Silver Tree" explicitly states in the ending that Mr. Wines (then the "Khan of Drink") was the one who negotiated the fall of the Fourth City.

I feel like London might have been negotiated by Mr. Pages, but I'm not sure.

Does anyone know who negotiated the Second City? And can anyone confirm who negotiated for London?

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Trilby
Trilby
Posts: 288

1/18/2018
Anyone got any idea on which dynasty The Fourth City (Karakorum) fell?
edited by Agent 'Trilby' on 1/18/2018

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/18/2018
Trilby wrote:
Anyone got any idea on which dynasty The Fourth City (Karakorum) fell?

Assuming I parsed the sentence correctly (which dynasty ruled the Fourth City at its fall), the Yuan Dynasty that descended from Genghis Khan ruled Karakorum during its entire history. The city was razed by the Ming in 1388, the same year that Uskhal Khan was murdered, though I don't know whether it was before or after. It was refounded in a minor way a hundred years later by Dayan Khan, but the London chronology strongly points to 1388 or before as the Fall date.

I seem to remember someone saying something about the Fall being in the middle of a siege; if that's true, then 1388 is the probable year. The only description of the Fourth City's Fall that I have read (a certain confession from Hallowmas past) says nothing about it. Still, I think 1388 is exceedingly likely for the year of the Fall, and Uskhal Khan or his successor Jorightu Khan the likely first ruler of the Fourth City. Certainly it's the latest possible date; after the Chinese were through with the city, there was nothing left that would attract a Master.

If the sentence was supposed to be parsed "who ruled the Third City when the Fourth landed on top of it," then I think that question is currently unanswerable. The most probable answer is "nobody."

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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3269

1/18/2018
Siankan wrote:
At this point, I'd love to hear from those who have played Flint or otherwise dallied with the Elder Continent. How old is the Presbyterate, as far as we know? Its citizens of course can hit four digits, but I don't know what information we have about its origins.



The issue is, we're not quite sure. Sunless Sea has a line about the Presbyterate making a treaty with "a certain other power" before the Bazaar ever came to the Neath. There's some disagreement on whether that power was Salt or Stone. Neither way fully makes sense - either Salt came to the Neath to spy before the Bazaar was in residence, or Stone somehow got to the Neath independently despite later seemingly being incapable of leaving.

So yeah, the Presbyterate is capital o Old, but aside from that we don't know.

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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/18/2018
We don't really know about the relative timelines of the Bazaar and Stone, do we? It's logical to assume that the Bazaar brought Stone (one way or another), but it's not a logical necessity. It also makes one wonder if, after all, the Presbyterate doesn't depend on the Mountain of Light as much as I thought it did. What might it have looked like before the Mountain? Now there's a question...

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Lazaroth
Lazaroth
Posts: 52

1/28/2018
Hang on guys. If we're going to talk about when the Bazaar first fell to the Neath, we should all be on the same page about what happened during that time. Especially since, with how I understand the events (which I freely admit could be wrong, especially since I recall getting this information from other players rather than drawing directly from the game itself), Stone would have been in the Neath for a very long time before the Bazaar fell.

  • The interstellar messenger we now know as the Bazaar, and the Judgement we now know as the Sun, have a Relationship of Some Sort. It may have been the cosmic equivalent of a one night stand or a fling, or may have been more protracted. Either way, it produced offspring: Stone, and the relationship overall probably meant more to the Bazaar than it did to the Sun.
  • The relationship between the Sun and the Bazaar ends. This may have been before the birth of stone, it may have been after. But it ended.
  • Stone was hidden in the Neath, where the Irrigo of the Nadir sheltered her from Judgement Light.
  • The Sun sends the Bazaar with confession of love to another Judgement.
  • The Bazaar makes this journey, but this other Judgement rejects the Sun.
  • The Bazaar fears that this rejection will inspire such despair in the Sun that it will commit suicide.
  • The Bazaar delays delivering its message, so that it can try to find a way to convince the Sun to love it instead, preventing its despair.
Now, this is incomplete—it doesn't cover anything involving the Masters, for one thing—but it does provide a window for Stone to be in the Neath before the Bazaar begins its quest. Stone would have been born and hidden there, while the Bazaar was off delivering the Sun's confession. It's suggested by the Long Road destinies that it can take the Bazaar a very long time, at least on a human time scale, to travel just from the earth to the Sun, let alone between Stars. Enough time, I suspect, for the Presbyterate to spring up around Stone, and for a compact to be made with Stone—or even Salt, if a union between a Judgement and a Messenger producing offspring was a big enough reason for it to come to the Neath.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/28/2018
Lazaroth wrote:
Stone would have been in the Neath for a very long time before the Bazaar fell.

You are right. I was reminded of this the other day, by some in-game text or other. In terms of full Neathy history, the Bazaar is a newcomer.

(For what it's worth, this makes me more sure of my interpretation of "Babylon" as the Bazaar, in the earlier discussion.)

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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Plynkes
Plynkes
Posts: 584

1/28/2018
Siankan wrote:

I seem to remember someone saying something about the Fall being in the middle of a siege; if that's true, then 1388 is the probable year.


Doesn't The Silver Tree document the Fall of the Fourth City? That game is set in the 13th Century rather than the 14th (1254 to be precise). Though I may be talking entirely out of my hat because it was so horribly grindy I never finished it. So there may be some kind of time-skip involved or it may not document the fall at all. Someone who managed to play it through to the end might be able to tell you, though.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/29/2018
Plynkes wrote:
Doesn't The Silver Tree document the Fall of the Fourth City? That game is set in the 13th Century rather than the 14th (1254 to be precise). Though I may be talking entirely out of my hat because it was so horribly grindy I never finished it. So there may be some kind of time-skip involved or it may not document the fall at all. Someone who managed to play it through to the end might be able to tell you, though.

1254? That's the year William of Rubruck visited and documented Karakorum, so it's an important year in that sense. Nothing significant happened to the city itself that year, at least that I know of. Does William show up in the game?

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Plynkes
Plynkes
Posts: 584

1/29/2018
You play a monk or priest from the west, newly arrived at the court of the Great Khan, if memory serves. So you could make a case that the player character is actually William of Rubruck (even though you can call your character anything you like). Don't recall running into him as an NPC.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 531

1/29/2018
Sounds like classic Failbetter: choose the right historical details to make your plot more resonant, then make that history serve your own ends.

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Addis Rook
Addis Rook
Posts: 123

1/30/2018
Is the Presbyterate older than the Cave of the Nadir? Do we know which came first, or how the Cave of the Nadir was created?
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